Kansas Kid said:

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When he finds hydrogen, what does it cost him and how far can he drive on a fill?

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He got $15000 worth of free H2 from Toyota but there are only 3 stations in Sacramento. And when we did the math, the mileage wasn't that good at all.

Kansas Kid said:

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Your golf exploits are legendary. That has always struck me as one of the most gimmicky holes in golf. I haven't played it but I have friends who have and they say it should be blown up.

Given many of the best golf courses are off the beaten track, EVs really don't work for that. Try taking an EV to Sand Hills in Nebraska.

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Blow up is a bit dramatic. I will settle for removal of 2 trees. It's a long par 4 and those trees aren't necessary to protect the hole. The course has quite a few subtle placement of trees that can stymie your 2nd shot if not careful. But that's the beauty of this course.

For a golf outing, I say bring on the Mercedes diesel sprinter with a fridge full of refreshments!!!

Agreed

So you didn't buy the Miata???

If I can't get two sets of clubs and push carts in the back, I won't consider a vehicle. (Ok, my Vette only gets two sets and one push cart but I made an exception there.)

Hertz is selling off 20K EV's because nobody wants to rent them. This includes Tesla Model 3's for $20K.

https://www.caranddriver.com/news/a46362800/hertz-car-rental-wants-to-sell-20000-evs/

NASAg03 said:

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Hertz is selling off 20K EV's because nobody wants to rent them. This includes Tesla Model 3's for $20K.

https://www.caranddriver.com/news/a46362800/hertz-car-rental-wants-to-sell-20000-evs/

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Yup. Discussed earlier in this thread. Get woke, go broke.

I wouldn't buy a used BEV for any reason, but imagine the abuse a rental/fleet vehicle gets, then tack onto that the issue of battery cycles/charging/regenerative braking systems etc. Ooof.

Still, some are probably getting a decent deal on the inventory dump.

I wonder how many will end up in Eastern Europe and Russia?

nortex97 said:

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I wouldn't buy a used BEV for any reason, but imagine the abuse a rental/fleet vehicle gets, then tack onto that the issue of battery cycles/charging/regenerative braking systems etc. Ooof.

Still, some are probably getting a decent deal on the inventory dump.

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My late first husband and I often joked about never buying a rental car we had rented.

So we know that dealers have been having a hard time unloading EVs off their lots. Nobody wants them. But our resident fan boys have still been crowing about how popular Teslas are. Turns out the price cuts have manipulated sales, but at what cost long term?

Quote:

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It sends a pretty big statement to the public that EVs just aren't a good deal, especially when the company that makes them is willing to undercut their value just to pad its own numbers. That may seem good on paper, but it's terrible for current owners. (Disclosure: I own and drive a 2018 Model S every day.)

In this case, the reason is pretty simple. For most of the last year, as sales lagged, Tesla cut prices. In some cases, it lowered the base price by as much as a third. The idea is try to get more people to buy its vehicles. To some extent, that has worked. The company reported an uptick in sales during the fourth quarter as a result of those price cuts, as well as an incentive to buy an EV before tax credits expire this year.

The thing is, Tesla's aggressive price cuts over the last year have meant that the resale value of those vehicles has decreased significantly. If you're a company that buys a ton of vehicles, and the value of those vehicles falls substantially, that's bad for your balance sheet.

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https://www.inc.com/jason-aten/hertz-is-dumping-tesla-why-its-very-bad-news-for-elon-musk.html

nortex97 said:

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I wouldn't buy a used BEV for any reason, but imagine the abuse a rental/fleet vehicle gets, then tack onto that the issue of battery cycles/charging/regenerative braking systems etc. Ooof.

Still, some are probably getting a decent deal on the inventory dump.

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Never buy a used car of any kind from a rental company. My wife worked for Avis in college and the stories of the abuse of cars that she saw would convince anyone not to do it. People drive rental cars like they stole them.

techno-ag said:

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So we know that dealers have been having a hard time unloading EVs off their lots. Nobody wants them. But our resident fan boys have still been crowing about how popular Teslas are. Turns out the price cuts have manipulated sales, but at what cost long term?

Quote:

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It sends a pretty big statement to the public that EVs just aren't a good deal, especially when the company that makes them is willing to undercut their value just to pad its own numbers. That may seem good on paper, but it's terrible for current owners. (Disclosure: I own and drive a 2018 Model S every day.)

In this case, the reason is pretty simple. For most of the last year, as sales lagged, Tesla cut prices. In some cases, it lowered the base price by as much as a third. The idea is try to get more people to buy its vehicles. To some extent, that has worked. The company reported an uptick in sales during the fourth quarter as a result of those price cuts, as well as an incentive to buy an EV before tax credits expire this year.

The thing is, Tesla's aggressive price cuts over the last year have meant that the resale value of those vehicles has decreased significantly. If you're a company that buys a ton of vehicles, and the value of those vehicles falls substantially, that's bad for your balance sheet.

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https://www.inc.com/jason-aten/hertz-is-dumping-tesla-why-its-very-bad-news-for-elon-musk.html

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Not many industries have a 50% sales growth year-over-year and they are told there is slowing sales. The growth rate is slowing without a doubt but that happens in every industry as the numbers get larger. The legacy automakers way over estimated demand for their cars and they are stuck with high inventories as a result. They were dumb enough to believe Biden's growth projections to get to 100% EVs by 2035 when the market will never get near 50% new vehicle sales based on current technology.

Tesla is doing classic industry leader activity of cutting prices to maintain market share. I celebrate lower prices but I guess you guys like higher prices. Biden would be proud of you adhering to his views of higher prices = good. I assume you guys hated when Dell and others kept dropping the prices of computers too.

Weird take, but par for the course.

Hertz selling Tesla Model 3s for CHEAP.

Some are as low as $14,000 with the used EV tax credit 🤯

(via Steve Greenfield) pic.twitter.com/lcHDtR3fAd

— Car Dealership Guy (@GuyDealership) January 12, 2024

Yep, dumping vehicles with around 70,000 to upwards of 90,000 miles on them. In other words, they far exceeded a normal lifetime in a rental car fleet.

Bubblez said:

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Hertz selling Tesla Model 3s for CHEAP.

Some are as low as $14,000 with the used EV tax credit 🤯

(via Steve Greenfield) pic.twitter.com/lcHDtR3fAd

— Car Dealership Guy (@GuyDealership) January 12, 2024

Yep, dumping vehicles with around 70,000 to upwards of 90,000 miles on them. In other words, they far exceeded a normal lifetime in a rental car fleet.

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They were far more expensive to operate than Hertz expected.

From the Inc article linked above:

Quote:

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Hertz says it plans to "sell approximately 20,000 electric vehicles ("EVs") from its U.S. fleet, or about one-third of the global EV fleet." Hertz's statement goes on to say that the move is meant to "eliminate a disproportionate number of lower margin rentals and reduce damage expense associated with EVs."

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OEMs greatly overestimated EV demand. They saw what Tsla was doing and had to jump into the game with a far inferior product. When the model Y came, the wait was 6+ months and market cap skyrocketing so all the OEMs just did what they always do. Copy and try to make things faster but what they didn't realize people didn't want Crappy EVs. Why would anyone buy a Ford/GM EV at the same or higher price for an inferior product while losing money on everyone they sold. This is why they are cutting back b/c they are losing money making an inferior product.

Hertz also tried to chase the Tesla Market cap and wanted to be a first mover but found out that Repairs just cost too much because there are not any 3rd party repair facilities and the wait/cost was too great.

EVs will continue to grow. Those who are going to buy an EV doesn't want an EV as much as they want a Tesla EV. Soon it will be Chinese EVs who will fill the low prices segment until Tsla gets the model 2 produced.

Those who work in the US ICE auto market is going to see a huge change in their industry. I see the legacy big G being niche players and shrinking. Their cost of manufacturing is so much higher than Tesla and just can't complete in the EV space. The UAW thought they won a big contract but they will soon see a big contract with less jobs and membership.

I would be shocked in the next 5-10 yrs if one of the big 3 do not go bankrupt or get bailed out. They just can't compete in this space similar to Blackberry when Apple came out

Quote:

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They saw what Tsla was doing and had to jump into the game with a far inferior product. When the model Y came, the wait was 6+ months and market cap skyrocketing so all the OEMs just did what they always do. Copy and try to make things faster but what they didn't realize people didn't want Crappy EVs. Why would anyone buy a Ford/GM EV at the same or higher price for an inferior product while losing money on everyone they sold. This is why they are cutting back b/c they are losing money making an inferior product.

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Not really. They saw the growth of Tesla but also massive government subsidies/push to EV's and none of the management wanted to fight the politics globally.

It's easy to disparage one, two, or heck 3 car manufacturers as having 'dumb' management, but when all 10 of the major auto mfg's globally (Honda, Toyota, Kia, GM, Ford, Stellantis, Daimler, BMW, VW, etc) outside of China jumped in, well, it wasn't because they are just blindly following Tesla. It's not just 'mandates' but things like "FAME" in Europe, and the Chinese and American push for 'zero emission' vehicle sales.

Quote:

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The electric vehicle (EV) sector registered exponential growth during the last decade due to depleting fossil fuel reserves and growing awareness about the impact of global warming. As EVs are a viable option to replace internal combustion engine (ICE) vehicles, EV sales increased substantially in several countries despite the automotive industry facing supply chain constraints in 2020 due to the COVID-19 pandemic. Global EV sales reached 7.7 million units in 2022, up from 1.4 million units in 2018, and are anticipated to reach 51.6 million units in 2035, driven by government mandates and infrastructure investments, according to GlobalData, a leading data and analytics company.

GlobalData's latest report, "Electric Vehicles Market Report, Update 2023 Global Market Outlook, Trends, and Key Country Analysis," reveals that during 2022-35, the total EV market is expected to expand at a compound annual growth rate (CAGR) of 15.9%, whereas the passenger EV segment is expected to register a CAGR of 26.1%. The commercial EV segment is expected to record a CAGR of 15% during the same period. The sales of battery electric passenger cars are expected to reach 44 million units by 2035 from 7.3 million units in 2022. The sales of battery electric commercial vehicles were 0.4 million units in 2022 and are anticipated to reach 7.6 million units by 2035.

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Quote:

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The US federal government has set a target to make half of all new vehicles sold in the country zero-emission vehicles by 2030 and to establish a suitable network of 500,000 chargers to support the agenda of making EVs more accessible to all Americans for local and long-distance travel.

In 2022, the European Commission and the European Parliament and Council supported a policy of supporting the zero-emission target by implementing all new cars and vans registered in Europe to be zero-emission by 2035. The governments of various countries in APAC are also increasingly investing in electric mobility. In India, Faster Adoption and Manufacturing of (Hybrid and) Electric Vehicles (FAME) and FAME-II are the flagship schemes for promoting electric mobility. All these factors bode well for the EV market.

Saibasan concludes: "The increasing concern over environmental pollution and the growing number of targets and policies related to the net zero carbon emission economies of different countries have fuelled the global demand for EVs. Reducing global carbon dioxide emissions to net zero by 2050 is consistent with efforts to curb the long-term increase in average global temperatures to 1.5C. The global pathway to netzero emissions by 2050 requires all governments to improve and effectively employ their climate policies. To reduce greenhouse gas (GHG) emissions, countries are focusing on preventing the burning of fossil fuels for transportation and encouraging the use of EVs."

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And yes, it's all driven by a religious pseudo-'scientific' obsession with the impact this 'change will have on global warming.'

Just devastating.

Quote:

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Scherr signaled in October he would cut back on EVs when the company's earnings missed expectations due to higher depreciation and repair costs from its electric fleet. He said Hertz would have beaten analysts' earnings estimates if not for the damage that Tesla price cuts and repair costs did to the bottom line. For the fourth quarter, Hertz will take a $245 million charge related to depreciation expenses.

Individual Tesla owners also haven't fared well. Over the course of 2023, the value of one-year-old EVs fell 35% in the US, about double the depreciation of used internal combustion vehicles, according to researcher Cox Automotive.

This is particularly problematic for Tesla owners who have financed their purchase and want to sell their car. Many now have negative equity, according to Cox, meaning their vehicle has depreciated in value faster than they've repaid their loan.

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https://www.bloomberg.com/news/newsletters/2024-01-12/hertz-s-tesla-fire-sale-portends-ev-reckoning-no-one-wants

Kansas Kid said:

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nortex97 said:

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I wouldn't buy a used BEV for any reason, but imagine the abuse a rental/fleet vehicle gets, then tack onto that the issue of battery cycles/charging/regenerative braking systems etc. Ooof.

Still, some are probably getting a decent deal on the inventory dump.

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Never buy a used car of any kind from a rental company. My wife worked for Avis in college and the stories of the abuse of cars that she saw would convince anyone not to do it. People drive rental cars like they stole them.

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Agreed, but it's easier said than done. A lot of rentals end up at auctions and get picked up by dealers needing to fill their used lot.

PlaneCrashGuy said:

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Kansas Kid said:

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nortex97 said:

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I wouldn't buy a used BEV for any reason, but imagine the abuse a rental/fleet vehicle gets, then tack onto that the issue of battery cycles/charging/regenerative braking systems etc. Ooof.

Still, some are probably getting a decent deal on the inventory dump.

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Never buy a used car of any kind from a rental company. My wife worked for Avis in college and the stories of the abuse of cars that she saw would convince anyone not to do it. People drive rental cars like they stole them.

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Agreed, but it's easier said than done. A lot of rentals end up at auctions and get picked up by dealers needing to fill their used lot.

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Not really. Carfax will tell you.

Kansas Kid said:

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PlaneCrashGuy said:

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Kansas Kid said:

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nortex97 said:

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I wouldn't buy a used BEV for any reason, but imagine the abuse a rental/fleet vehicle gets, then tack onto that the issue of battery cycles/charging/regenerative braking systems etc. Ooof.

Still, some are probably getting a decent deal on the inventory dump.

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Never buy a used car of any kind from a rental company. My wife worked for Avis in college and the stories of the abuse of cars that she saw would convince anyone not to do it. People drive rental cars like they stole them.

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Agreed, but it's easier said than done. A lot of rentals end up at auctions and get picked up by dealers needing to fill their used lot.

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Not really. Carfax will tell you.

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Ignorance is bliss.

Find it funny to watch the people who undoubtedly made the argument that EVs were too expensive and would never be mass-adopted also making the argument that the price of EVs falling is bad for EVs.

Slight twist here. Who would fly on these?

Quote:

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Mokulele Airlines, the only airline serving residents of Molokai and Lanai, has a new parent company, and customers can expect to see changes to service in the coming months and years, including the possible addition of electric seagliders to the fleet, according to the company's CEO.

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Quote:

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The seagliders, which fly port-to-port about 60 feet over the ocean, won't be ready to fly for a few more years. However, airline executives say Mokulele customers, who have complained in recent months about cancellations and delays, will start to see improvements sooner.

Surf Air Mobility, a Los Angeles-based electric air travel company, acquired Mokulele's parent company, Southern Airways, at the end of July just before Surf Air went public on the New York Stock Exchange.

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LINK

Me?

aggiehawg said:

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Slight twist here. Who would fly on these?

Quote:

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Mokulele Airlines, the only airline serving residents of Molokai and Lanai, has a new parent company, and customers can expect to see changes to service in the coming months and years, including the possible addition of electric seagliders to the fleet, according to the company's CEO.

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Quote:

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The seagliders, which fly port-to-port about 60 feet over the ocean, won't be ready to fly for a few more years. However, airline executives say Mokulele customers, who have complained in recent months about cancellations and delays, will start to see improvements sooner.

Surf Air Mobility, a Los Angeles-based electric air travel company, acquired Mokulele's parent company, Southern Airways, at the end of July just before Surf Air went public on the New York Stock Exchange.

---

LINK

Me?

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I will let others work out the bugs on any new aircraft design.

I have to say, Hawaii inter-island transport is a very unique situation. They have had a challenge (Hawaiian airlines) transitioning from the old DC-9/MD-95/717 because the GTF (Pratt) engines don't cycle so quickly between flights (core gets too hot).

While electric aviation makes little sense 99 percent of the time, I could see this working out, if not this brand/design specifically.



If it can make a safe 'ditch/landing' in the sea in the moderate conditions that are common there, this could be a relatively affordable/safe 'bus' service, at the ranges desired, if they can just swap out the batteries quickly etc. It will also take 10+ years to get this stuff worked out, imho. Electric should also probably work better with a vertical take off/landing option (easier for electric than a turbofan/prop etc).

The other thing is that Hawaii would only approve if this thing has the right politics involved (locally built, tribal crap, etc), no idea if it does/will.

hph6203 said:

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Find it funny to watch the people who undoubtedly made the argument that EVs were too expensive and would never be mass-adopted also making the argument that the price of EVs falling is bad for EVs owners.

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You almost got there. And btw, it is bad for EV owners. Just ask Hertz.

I'd fly on one after it's proven safe. But why does it have to be electric? Not sure the same idea could raise money if it wasn't electric in todays environment.

There are a lot of places these could be useful for quickly ferrying.

They just raised 60 MM (which is a lot in today's environment) so I suspect they have a few orders.

bmks270 said:

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I'd fly on one after it's proven safe. But why does it have to be electric? Not sure the same idea could raise money if it wears t electric in todays environment.

There are a lot of places these could be useful for quickly ferrying.

They just raised 60 MM (which is a lot in today's environment) so I suspect they have a few orders.

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Agreed. This is where the weight of the battery is a big negative since you have to fight gravity with an airplane. I can see the lower maintenance because the ICE engines are notoriously high maintenance for both the airframe and the engines themselves whereas the electrics should be more like turbines on the airframe and a lot less engine maintenance but I still struggle with the weight. A Spirit engineer here in town once told me the cost of an extra kilogram on a 737 and it was $1,500-2,000 in fuel savings over the life of the plane.

I dunno about that maintenance argument.

Modern engines are technical marvels.

The CFM56 engine can stay on wing for as many as 20,000 cycles, with an average time on wing (TOW) of 18,000 cycles to its first overhaul; that's approximately nine years without removing the engine for heavy maintenance [see time to first shop visit chart below; TOW data accumulated from CFM's Fleet Data Management

https://blog.geaerospace.com/product/did-you-know-cfm56-engines-performance-extended-time-on-wing-advantage/#:~:text=The%20CFM56%20engine%20can%20stay,from%20CFM's%20Fleet%20Data%20Management%20(

evan_aggie said:

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I dunno about that maintenance argument.

Modern engines are technical marvels.

The CFM56 engine can stay on wing for as many as 20,000 cycles, with an average time on wing (TOW) of 18,000 cycles to its first overhaul; that's approximately nine years without removing the engine for heavy maintenance [see time to first shop visit chart below; TOW data accumulated from CFM's Fleet Data Management

https://blog.geaerospace.com/product/did-you-know-cfm56-engines-performance-extended-time-on-wing-advantage/#:~:text=The%20CFM56%20engine%20can%20stay,from%20CFM's%20Fleet%20Data%20Management%20(

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Sorry I wasn't clearer. I was referring to piston engines and not turbines. Without a doubt, turbines are amazing technology that have continued to get better over time. They also don't cause the vibrations that pistons do that cause issues with the airframe. My assumption for a short puddle hopper is it would be a piston drive and not a turbine.

Kansas Kid said:

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bmks270 said:

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I'd fly on one after it's proven safe. But why does it have to be electric? Not sure the same idea could raise money if it wears t electric in todays environment.

There are a lot of places these could be useful for quickly ferrying.

They just raised 60 MM (which is a lot in today's environment) so I suspect they have a few orders.

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Agreed. This is where the weight of the battery is a big negative since you have to fight gravity with an airplane. I can see the lower maintenance because the ICE engines are notoriously high maintenance for both the airframe and the engines themselves whereas the electrics should be more like turbines on the airframe and a lot less engine maintenance but I still struggle with the weight. A Spirit engineer here in town once told me the cost of an extra kilogram on a 737 and it was $1,500-2,000 in fuel savings over the life of the plane.

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Yeah, unless there's a drastic breakthrough in battery technology to get higher specific energy, I just don't see fully battery-powered electric airliners ever being viable. Just too heavy. Maybe they could use some kind of hybrid system where the actual engines are electric, but powered by a generator. (Oil-fueled? Hydrogen fuel cell?) But I'm not an aerospace engineer, so I don't know if that would work.

Also posted on funny tweets, but works here too.

THIS! 👊 I agree 100% ⚡️😉 pic.twitter.com/sFy7eKKGdj

— ❤️‍🔥 𝓓𝓪𝓻 ❤️‍🔥 (@DameScorpio) January 12, 2024

techno-ag said:

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Pizza said:

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techno-ag said:

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Pizza said:

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Rental car giant Hertz on Thursday said it will sell about 20,000 electric vehicles from its U.S. fleet.

"The company expects this action to better balance supply against expected demand of EVs," the company said.

The company said in October 2021 that it would acquire 100,000 Teslas in a move to help build its EV fleet.

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Yeah Hertz had a horrible quarter.

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The point...








Your head.

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LOL. I don't think so. I know exactly the point, at least the important one.

They were going to go all green and found out nobody wants to rent electric cars. Go woke, go broke works with EVs too.

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Yeah, rental seems like a bad model for EVs.

When the big selling point of EVs is charging at home, renting them out to people who probably will NOT be at home means they have to find those few charging stations in the area.

And god forbid you've got to "fill up" prior to returning...I just dropped off a rental this morning and it took me 2 min to top off the tank and get back on the road. Charging would be a lot longer time. And at when you're trying to catch a flight, having to add an extra 15-30 min on the way to the airport would definitely be an annoyance.