nortex97 said:

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Ice vehicles should also get cheaper, and oil and gas as well, in my lifetime anyway, I'd the government would get out of the way a bit. Everything else you posted is wishcasting.

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Why do you think oil will get materially cheaper? The blue bars are what matter given field decline rates. The costs keep rising as the quality of the fields decline and the cost of capital for E&P goes up because of ESG mandates from a lot of investors that have greatly limited the capital available for industry (stupid policy IMO but economic reality for now)

hph6203 said:

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nortex97 said:

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Ice vehicles should also get cheaper, and oil and gas as well, in my lifetime anyway, I'd the government would get out of the way a bit. Everything else you posted is wishcasting.

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The price of ICE vehicles has been rising, their volumes have been falling on average since 2017, they're now dealing with incremental loss of market to BEV, which means reduction in part volumes, which increases part prices, which drives up costs, which drives up price of the finished vehicle. There is margin compression coming to the market for ICE which will look like falling prices, but it's not falling costs.

The EV prices are falling due to the limited number of parts, the proportion of overlap in parts between different vehicles and vehicle types, and the capacity for those parts production to be further and further automated. That and the production efficiencies have not been fully realized in terms of each one of those individual parts, like, I dunno, the batteries.

When you talk about wishcasting, believing that ICE vehicles are meaningfully going to fall in price is just that.

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Everything you just posted is wrong.

ICE vehicle prices have risen with inflation and silly added requirements thanks to government regulations in Europe and the US. The Byzantine myriad of goals are not hard to see/look up, though difficult to summarize. It may start with something anodyne like 'CAFE standards' but it's a lot more, and the ramping up in truth goes from added costs like grill shutters to safety risks like low resistance tires. That needs to stop, as I am sure you agree since you and Kansaskid don't believe in global warming as a rationalization for why EV's should be subsidized. And American consumers are pushing back more and more, even with the subsidies, as the dealers' letter last month to the Biden administration about their CCP-car push shows.

EV prices are falling, yes, and that has hurt their adoption lately, as we've discussed/I have posted the past few days. Go back and look at it. Many EV fan boys have advocated for them but also conditioned their support for their capping out at around 25-30 percent market share. That's some recognition of the limited appeal/prospect.

We can get back to sub-$10K ICE vehicles and $1.50 gas whenever we have the political leadership to allow it to happen. It's amazing people think it is so impossible. Certainly, Toyota and the big mfg's know this. Expensive, throw-away (disposable) BEV's with all of their trade offs are hardly some sort of new age tech that is going to replace the dinosaurs.

Next I expect you to tell me Ukraine is winning and will be retaking Crimea next week.

ICE prices rising with inflation is ICE prices rising.

EV prices reducing did not negatively impact adoption, it boosted it relative to keeping pricing the same. What happened was a lot of models coming into the market simultaneously, overproduction of those models, rising interest rates, and the market leader reducing pricing to ensure they saturate their production while the companies who couldn't match pricing saw inventory pile up. Prices are now lower than where they were 3 years ago with roughly the same payment as peak pricing, while maintaining similar margins as 3 years ago. That's how impactful the rise in interest rates have been and in order to increase the addressable market prices necessarily have to fall.

That's falling prices/costs, reduce cost of goods without negatively impacting the vehicle or margins. Unlike that truck that has no side walls or tailgate to the bed, no airbags, no power windows or locks, manual transmission, no ABS and no profit until you start getting into convenience feature adds like airbags. That is not a viable mainstream car in the U.S. It couldn't even be produced for that price point here because the labor to build it would represent something like 50% of the $10,000.

There's no way we're getting to sub $10,000 ICE cars in this country. The consumer will not accept that. Only way it happens is if we collectively decide to cosplay as decrepit and poor victims of the Soviet Union.

EVs on the other hand aren't impossible to do in the not too distant future through sodium ion batteries, significantly reduced range (150 miles or less) and absolutely no power. I don't think there's much of a market for that kind of vehicle here, but it's way more likely to hit the streets than a flat bed pick up with no safety features or driver convenience features.

You've had some whoppers on this thread, but I think this probably wins the prize for most delusional. $10,000 vehicles. Right.

I was reading my neighborhood's FB page, and one of the members mentioned that they had a flat tire on a freeway. They then said that 1) Her Tesla model didn't have a spare, and 2) that standard tow trucks can't tow a Tesla. Are both of those true?

She had to have a tire company drive to her and take the tire off. Then they drove the tire back to the shop where they fixed it. And finally, they had to drive back to the car to put it back on.

I don't follow this thread on a regular basis, so this may have been covered multiple times, but are both of those items true? If so, she has a toy car, not a serious/real vehicle.

Not having a spare tire is increasingly common among newer vehicles,. It's not a Tesla thing.

Teslag said:

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Not having a spare tire is increasingly common among newer vehicles,. It's not a Tesla thing.

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Is the tow truck thing true also?

And do Tesla cars at least come with run-flat tires?

Tesla can be towed by both flatbed and winch tow trucks, but winch method is only recommended for a max of 55km.

StandUpforAmerica said:

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Teslag said:

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Not having a spare tire is increasingly common among newer vehicles,. It's not a Tesla thing.

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Is the tow truck thing true also?

And do Tesla cars at least come with run-flat tires?

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No run flats. You need a flat bed to tow the vehicle.

https://www.consumerreports.org/cars/tires/some-newer-cars-are-missing-a-spare-tire-a9928775934/

Almost 30% of new vehicles have no spare at all.

Thanks for the feedback. I stand by my original statement about not being a serious car. But they do make a great toy for the suburbs.

StandUpforAmerica said:

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Thanks for the feedback. I stand by my original statement about not being a serious car. But they do make a great toy for the suburbs.

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A lot of cars are like that these days. My Corvette has to be towed on a flat bed and and 30% of cars new don't have spares due to weight and cost. I assume you also view all of those vehicles as not being a serious car?

https://www.newscentermaine.com/article/travel/why-your-new-car-may-not-come-with-an-extra-tire/97-2e7e70e9-07c4-4a0f-83f7-f7c126c57c5e

StandUpforAmerica said:

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Thanks for the feedback. I stand by my original statement about not being a serious car. But they do make a great toy for the suburbs.

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Most high end sports cars and luxury vehicles have special tow requirements and no spare. I assure you, they are all "serious cars" or whatever the **** that even means.

Corvettes are by definition mid-life crisis cars. By definition crises are serious, but somewhat laughable usually.

Today I found out he Lamborghini Aventador and Ferrari LaFerrari are not "serious cars" and "just toys".

Kansas Kid said:

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StandUpforAmerica said:

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Thanks for the feedback. I stand by my original statement about not being a serious car. But they do make a great toy for the suburbs.

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A lot of cars are like that these days. My Corvette has to be towed on a flat bed and and 30% of cars new don't have spares due to weight and cost. I assume you also view all of those vehicles as not being a serious car?

https://www.newscentermaine.com/article/travel/why-your-new-car-may-not-come-with-an-extra-tire/97-2e7e70e9-07c4-4a0f-83f7-f7c126c57c5e

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Neither Teslas or Corvettes are serious cars for the average buyer (hope that clarification helps). They're both toys for the well off.

StandUpforAmerica said:

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Thanks for the feedback. I stand by my original statement about not being a serious car. But they do make a great toy for the suburbs.

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You'll fit in fine here.

Quote:

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Neither Teslas or Corvettes are serious cars for the average buyer (hope that clarification helps). They're both toys for the well off.

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Per the NTSB, the average car buyer lives in or within a commute to a large urban area and takes 1 or less 500 mile road trips per year.

In that regard the Tesla is 100% a serious car for the average buyer. The issue is, you don't know who the average car buyer is. You're the outlier.

Teslag said:

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Quote:

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Neither Teslas or Corvettes are serious cars for the average buyer (hope that clarification helps). They're both toys for the well off.

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Per the NTSB, the average car buyer lives in or within a commute to a large urban area and takes 1 or less 500 mile road trips per year.

In that regard the Tesla is 100% a serious car for the average buyer. The issue is, you don't know who the average car buyer is. You're the outlier.

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As they say, bless your heart for believing that Teslas are for the average buyer. I'm not arguing they don't have their place, but at this point in time they defintely aren't for the average Joe.

Tesla model 3 ranks last in German test of used vehicle reliability:

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Tesla chooses not to take part in JD Power surveys in the U.S. so it's not easy to compare the reliability of its cars to those of its rivals. But new data from Germany's TV organization gives an alarming insight into what might be in store for anyone looking to buy a used Tesla Model 3 or buy one to keep for a long time.

A TV test, as it's colloquially known, is a roadworthiness assessment that gets its name from one of the companies that carry them out; the real name for the technical inspection is the Hauptuntersuchung. It must be carried out every 24 months on all cars over three years old and tests safety- and emissions-related components including the chassis, brakes, steering, lights, mirrors, seatbelts, and more. Fail the test and your car can't legally be driven on the road.

In the year to June 2023, more than 10 million cars were subjected to the test, around 20 percent of which failed to get the coveted circular pass sticker. Tesla and Dacia, the two brands regularly seen duking it out for overall victory in Europe's monthly sales league tables, also topped the list of failure-prone cars.
….
The report categorizes the cars according to age, and the Model 3 was worst overall in the 2-3-year-old segment. Problems frequently noted include braking deficiencies, which the testers say is partly down to how EVs rely heavily on energy recuperation to slow them down, meaning the conventional brakes aren't getting the use they need to keep them working effectively. Other faults commonly seen were suspension issues resulting from the strain of carrying heavy batteries.

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Buying a used EV is a real leap of political and financial faith, imho, and I think Tesla actually makes some of the best EV's from what I have read.

nortex97 said:

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Tesla model 3 ranks last in German test of used vehicle reliability:

Quote:

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Tesla chooses not to take part in JD Power surveys in the U.S. so it's not easy to compare the reliability of its cars to those of its rivals. But new data from Germany's TV organization gives an alarming insight into what might be in store for anyone looking to buy a used Tesla Model 3 or buy one to keep for a long time.

A TV test, as it's colloquially known, is a roadworthiness assessment that gets its name from one of the companies that carry them out; the real name for the technical inspection is the Hauptuntersuchung. It must be carried out every 24 months on all cars over three years old and tests safety- and emissions-related components including the chassis, brakes, steering, lights, mirrors, seatbelts, and more. Fail the test and your car can't legally be driven on the road.

In the year to June 2023, more than 10 million cars were subjected to the test, around 20 percent of which failed to get the coveted circular pass sticker. Tesla and Dacia, the two brands regularly seen duking it out for overall victory in Europe's monthly sales league tables, also topped the list of failure-prone cars.
….
The report categorizes the cars according to age, and the Model 3 was worst overall in the 2-3-year-old segment. Problems frequently noted include braking deficiencies, which the testers say is partly down to how EVs rely heavily on energy recuperation to slow them down, meaning the conventional brakes aren't getting the use they need to keep them working effectively. Other faults commonly seen were suspension issues resulting from the strain of carrying heavy batteries.

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Buying a used EV is a real leap of political and financial faith, imho, and I think Tesla actually makes some of the best EV's from what I have read.

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But … we were told with fewer parts they would be MORE reliable not less.

Hey! They built a charger!

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The very first Bidencharger is located at a truck stop in London, Ohio, that features "an Arby's, a Cinnabon, and plenty of merchandise for truckers," according to the Free Beacon. It opened on Friday, Dec. 8, just three days after I so recklessly claimed that the Green New Deal Lite hadn't built any EV charging stations. Please, I hope you can find it in your heart to forgive me.

But this being a Biden boondoggle, you have to know there's going to be a catch, and here it is: "At about 10:30 a.m. on a Tuesday, nobody was using the chargers," Inside Climate News Admitted.

This comes as no surprise. If I were spending my own money on EV chargers, I'd put the first one where there are plenty of EV drivers around to generate a return on my investment. A truck stop on the outskirts of Columbus seems like an unlikely place to find a Tesla charging in the middle of the day.

Or at most any other time, really, despite the presence of four charging ports with spacious parking around them.

Why, you might ask, is the first of many tens of thousands of taxpayer-funded EV chargers located at a spot on the interstate frequented by truckers?

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LINK

aggiehawg said:

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Hey! They built a charger!

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The very first Bidencharger is located at a truck stop in London, Ohio, that features "an Arby's, a Cinnabon, and plenty of merchandise for truckers," according to the Free Beacon. It opened on Friday, Dec. 8, just three days after I so recklessly claimed that the Green New Deal Lite hadn't built any EV charging stations. Please, I hope you can find it in your heart to forgive me.

But this being a Biden boondoggle, you have to know there's going to be a catch, and here it is: "At about 10:30 a.m. on a Tuesday, nobody was using the chargers," Inside Climate News Admitted.

This comes as no surprise. If I were spending my own money on EV chargers, I'd put the first one where there are plenty of EV drivers around to generate a return on my investment. A truck stop on the outskirts of Columbus seems like an unlikely place to find a Tesla charging in the middle of the day.

Or at most any other time, really, despite the presence of four charging ports with spacious parking around them.

Why, you might ask, is the first of many tens of thousands of taxpayer-funded EV chargers located at a spot on the interstate frequented by truckers?

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LINK

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Another colossal waste of taxpayer money.

Another day, another 2 million Teslas recalled.

https://www.nytimes.com/2023/12/13/business/tesla-autopilot-recall.html

By recall you mean an over the air software update to "fix" something that wasn't broken?

Teslag said:

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By recall you mean an over the air software update to "fix" something that wasn't broken?

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Quote:

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Tesla's reputation for making technologically advanced cars suffered a blow on Tuesday when the company, under pressure from regulators, recalled more than two million vehicles. U.S. officials said the automaker had not done enough to ensure that drivers remained attentive when using a system that can steer, accelerate and brake cars automatically.

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https://www.fox4news.com/news/carmakers-most-recalls-2022-how-to-check-for-recalls

Ford had 67 recalls in 2022. Guess what, recalls are very common. The key is to look at how serious the issue is that is causing the recall. From a few of the ones last year for Ford, I will take a software update to increase the nanny state of auto drive over fractured driveshafts, engine oil leaks and fuel injector fires.

Some of Ford's major recalls for 2022 include a fractured driveshaft impacting nearly 250,000 F-250 and F-350 Super Duty vehicles, and an engine oil leak potentially affecting nearly 350,000 Ford Escapes and Broncos.

From one of the recalls
"Ford said it has received 20 reports of fires, including three that ignited nearby structures, linked to another major recall, this one involving a fuel injector leak. The company also said it has four claims of fires that were noticed less than five minutes after the engines were turned off. Ford also has four injury claims not involving burns, and 43 legal claims attributed to the problem."

We have been assured on this site that structure fires only come from EVs.

Here's the response to the recall, basically all they did was relocate the notifications when activating the system, increased the text size of the notification, made it possible to activate it with one press down on the stalk, and made it so the user can be banned from its use for a week if they fail to maintain attention while driving.

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In accordance with a recent recall (campaign #23V-838 for US and #2023-657 for Canada), Tesla is making the following improvements to Autosteer:

Improved visibility of driver monitoring warning alerts on the touchscreen by increasing the text size and moving the notifications to a more prominent position (Model 3 and Model Y only).

Added option to activate Autopilot features with a single stalk depression, instead of two, to help simplify activation and disengagement.

Increased the strictness of driver attentiveness requirements when using Autosteer and approaching traffic lights and stops signs off-highway.

Introduced a Suspension Policy that will restrict Autosteer usage for one week if improper usage is detected. Improper usage is when you, or another driver of your vehicle, receive five "Forced Autopilot Disengagements."

You are the driver. As the driver, you must be vigilant to the road, keep your hands on the wheel, and be ready to intervene to maintain safety.

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Autopilot recalls aren't really related to whether the car is EV or ICE or hybrid. Tesla pushes the limits on that stuff and is pretty standardized in how it is 'applied' across models.

Just my two cents, though again the nature of EV's perhaps being closer to 'big brother' control/oversight are manifested here, at least on a brand level.

nortex97 said:

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Autopilot recalls aren't really related to whether the car is EV or ICE or hybrid. Tesla pushes the limits on that stuff and is pretty standardized in how it is 'applied' across models.

Just my two cents, though again the nature of EV's perhaps being closer to 'big brother' control/oversight are manifested here, at least on a brand level.

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Without a doubt the new EV makers have more data gathering and have pushed driver assists further than the legacy automakers in their mass produced cars. It shows EV makers are faster to innovate and to implement changes in car technology. That said, GMs OnStar system is a massive Big Brother system that been around for a long time. Many other automakers have similar data gathering systems as well (and then there are the black boxes). It is the trade off of new features vs privacy that is invading every day life. Assume if it has a computer chip, it is gathering data on you for the manufacturer.

Poops his pants: Gov't officials traveling have to deal with renting an EV or rail.

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White House takes action to force government workers to travel via electric vehicle, rail
'These operational changes will accelerate the clean transportation transformation,' White House says
…The actions, which the White House said fulfilled President Biden's promise to "lead by example" on tackling climate change, seek to take advantage of the federal government's annual business travel purchasing power of $2.8 billion and status as the nation's largest employer. Overall, government employees on official business took more than 2.8 million flights, made 2.3 million vehicle rentals and took 33,000 rail trips last year.
…Under the guidance, government employees must rent an EV on official travel when the cost of the EV is less than or equal to the most affordable comparable gas-powered vehicle available. Additionally, employees must opt for EVs when using taxis and ride-share platforms when they are cost-competitive.
In addition, employees must only use rail on trips that require less than 250 miles of travel instead of driving or flying. For local travel, employees will be required to use public transportation, a rule that includes travel upon arriving at an offsite location.
"This will save taxpayer money and reduce pollution that jeopardizes people's health and fuels the climate crisis," the White House said.

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HOLY SMOKES

And how blindingly ludicrous.

As my life has always been one big accident waiting to happen, all I could think of was who wanted to pay for that additional collision coverage when you're the one with the authorization to secure the car? And at what it costs for a fender bender in one of those things, you'd best take, it, right? Is the government footing the extra $25 day or whatever that costs?

And then what about when you're in D.C. and have a conference in Quantico or Baltimore? Those are both the kind of places I'd gladly look forward to having to first find a recharging station, and then spending a few hours with the friendly locals hanging out as my car charged up.
What? Me worry?

As for saving the government all this money, well, it's POTATUS' #mathz again, so you know nothing adds up here. He's just adding more subsidies to the subsidies with the virtue-signaling presidential pen flourish.

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Meh, I say it's a good thing. Force the gov't types to deal with this political trash themselves. Not for me!

Yep, the "recall" basically did nothing but address a government finger wag. I used a cheat device so it basically thinks I am always paying attention anyway when using auto pilot.

Rivian is another 'sexy' new EV brand that…is pretty damn scary if something happens to bump into it.

Pretty funny story by a climate change worshipper who traveled by VW EV across the country.

6000 miles @ 70 mph avg = 85 hrs
54 charging stops @ an avg of 39 minutes = 35 hrs

85 hrs driving, 35 hrs waiting, 54 stops!

"Sure, it took me 3 or 6 extra days, but I saved $500 in gas (partially by mooching off family) and 'renewable energy' will make it even cheaper as it has been proven that solar and wind power are cheaper to use for our power grid."

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I used the EV travel apps PlugShare and A Better Routeplanner to plan my trip. I immediately ran into a problem: The apps showed no EV routes across Montana, Wyoming, and South Dakota or across western Ontario from Sault Ste. Marie to Ottawa.

By applying slightly different filters and making slight route adjustments, including accepting slower Level 2 charging services where necessary, I eventually identified a plausible three-day trip to northern Wisconsin followed by an additional three days to coastal Maine.

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How much it cost to drive an EV cross-country compared to gas

Occasionally, during an EV drive, you encounter free charging. That happened to me when my accommodations or family members provided charging at no cost. When I did have to pay, I spent an average of $15 per charge, though the price varied widely: a low of $5 to a high of $24. In all, I estimate I would have spent $675 in charging costs for the trip. But thanks to a discount for VW owners at Electrify America charging sites, I actually spent only about $300 for 6,000 miles of travel.

The same trip in an internal combustion engine SUV getting 30 mpg at fuel costs of $4 per gallon might have cost about $800.

For this trip, driving an EV proved less expensive than driving a gas-fueled vehicle. In August 2023, the Washington Post published state-by-state modeled estimates of EVs vs. gas, with this conclusion: "For the everyday driver in the United States, it's already cheaper to refuel an EV most of the time, and it's expected to get cheaper as renewable capacity expands and vehicle efficiency improves."

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Many more LOL's in the whole article. The whole publication/site is really pretty hilarious.

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Occasionally, during an EV drive, you encounter free charging. That happened to me when my accommodations or family members provided charging at no cost.

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Moocher.

I think we can all agree, if you're traveling long distances in an EV you can't be in a hurry.

If you want to arrive safe and sound and on time, use a gas powered vehicle.