I have a reservation and will get one when it's my turn.

Faster than a 911, more drag power than a f350 diesel, turn radius of a model S, bulletproof frame.

Now deciding between the dual and tri motor

nortex97 said:

---

Didn't they say it is going to start at $50K?

Beats a Porsche 911 while towing a 911
pic.twitter.com/4YdS1tKQse

— Elon Musk (@elonmusk) November 30, 2023

I am not by any means changing my positions but this…is impressive, purely from a performance standpoint.

---

And now maybe you get why a lot of people love EVs because of the insane acceleration.

But cybertruck would not be able to blow out black smoke out of the exhaust pipe

Kansas Kid said:

---

nortex97 said:

---

Didn't they say it is going to start at $50K?

Beats a Porsche 911 while towing a 911
pic.twitter.com/4YdS1tKQse

— Elon Musk (@elonmusk) November 30, 2023

I am not by any means changing my positions but this…is impressive, purely from a performance standpoint.

---

And now maybe you get why a lot of people love EVs because of the insane acceleration.

---

Not really, because rapidly discharging a battery pack as such will absolutely cause a lot of heat, and accelerated SEI growth and battery decay.

But I am glad you asked, my friend. At some point down the road maybe there will be a much more perfectly reliable electric grid with adequate dispatch capacity, a solid state heir to the cybertruck, that isn't ugly, and whose battery chemistry isn't dependant on China, and replacement batteries can be installed for less than a third what they will cost for cybertruck owners, and there won't be any risk of fires associated with them.

That could happen, in my kids or grandkids lifetime, who knows, but I suspect knowing how to change a spark plug will still matter.

nortex97 said:

---

Kansas Kid said:

---

nortex97 said:

---

Didn't they say it is going to start at $50K?

Beats a Porsche 911 while towing a 911
pic.twitter.com/4YdS1tKQse

— Elon Musk (@elonmusk) November 30, 2023

I am not by any means changing my positions but this…is impressive, purely from a performance standpoint.

---

And now maybe you get why a lot of people love EVs because of the insane acceleration.

---

Not really, because rapidly discharging a battery pack as such will absolutely cause a lot of heat, and accelerated SEI growth and battery decay.

But I am glad you asked, my friend. At some point down the road maybe there will be a much more perfectly reliable electric grid with adequate dispatch capacity, a solid state heir to the cybertruck, that isn't ugly, and whose battery chemistry isn't dependant on China, and replacement batteries can be installed for less than a third what they will cost for cybertruck owners, and there won't be any risk of fires associated with them.

That could happen, in my kids or grandkids lifetime, who knows, but I suspect knowing how to change a spark plug will still matter.

---

You mean hard acceleration is hard on a vehicle. I assume you know that is also the case for ICE vehicles as well. A lot of people don't care. They love the thrill even if it comes at a cost.

PS. There is already adequate dispatch capacity. That is why we have been closing down older power plants as new gas fired and renewables come on line. Texas is one of the few areas that has had issues and that if for reasons that ERCOT should have to answer for.

Cybertruck is confirmed to be able to back up residential power if you have a Powerwall in line as a buffer. Gonna be like 2-3 days of battery backup between the Powerwall and truck.

Stupid pricing, who the hell would pay $60K for an electric 2WD truck with only 250 miles of range and 6.5 0-60? The dual motor should be $60K.

hph6203 said:

---

Cybertruck is confirmed to be able to back up residential power if you have a Powerwall in line as a buffer. Gonna be like 2-3 days of battery backup between the Powerwall and truck.

---

If after 3 days I tire of this, will this nifty cybertruck be able to drive me to a cool motel room. Oh wait, it will not because the battery was used on my house.

You could go find a motel on day 2 like you would on day 0 without it.

hph6203 said:

---

You could go find a motel on day 2 like you would on day 0 without it.

---

We live in a Country where people run generators inside their house, you think average American makes such rational decisions?

Its novel the truck can power a bungalow for a couple of days. Seems like a waste of energy to drive giant, heavy, polluting batter packs around all day and pretend its good for the environment, but people again are strange.

Open app. Set minimum range. Close app. Seems hard for the kind of person that would spend the money to make it functional in the first place. Only worry about it once every 20 years when the power goes out for 3 consecutive days.

hph6203 said:

---

Open app. Set minimum range. Close app. Seems hard for the kind of person that would spend the money to make it functional in the first place. Only worry about it once every 20 years when the power goes out for 3 consecutive days.

---

Awesome, so you agree its a useless feature or... a novelty.

aggieforester05 said:

---

Stupid pricing, who the hell would pay $60K for an electric 2WD truck with only 250 miles of range and 6.5 0-60? The dual motor should be $60K.

---

Musk is famous for maximing price when new models are brought to market and then lowering them. When the S Ludicrous mode came out, it was around $130k. Now you can get an S with Plaid mode and other new features for $90k. I have no idea where the price will be in 2 years but I would take less than the current price just given Tesla's track record.

I still would never buy it because I am not a fan of the look and I personally don't like pickups of any kind but clearly there is a market.

I wouldn't characterize it as useless, rather as an infrequently used feature that was made possible in conjunction with a reduction in the cost of materials. It's something that's coming to the rest of Tesla's slate of vehicles and for the people that do use it they will be glad they have it while their neighbors sit in the dark.

In today's installment of "wow" around EV ideas I present the one mile of inductive road charging Gretchen Whitmer is installing in the people's republic of 'free and fair voting' Detroit;

Quote:

---

It's an interesting concept for certain. But one wonders about its true utility and overall cost. Detroit may play host to influential companies with deep pockets. But the city itself isn't exactly flush with cash and has struggled with reinventing itself. While meaningful strides have been made, balancing the budget remains tricky and this looks like a costly project to upscale.

While Governor Whitmer originally envisioned an inductive charging highway loop situated along tourist destinations, ensuring future travelers driving EVs could tour the Great Lakes without stopping, the more likely scenario involves years of testing with Detroit eventually trying to expand localized charging. Thus far, MDOT has only said it would "begin seeking bids" in 2024 to rebuild part of US-12 (Michigan Avenue), which will see additional inductive charging installed. Unfortunately, it seems like there needs to be a lot of coil-equipped roads for the concept to offer any real benefit to drivers.

Inductive phone charging certainly seemed like a novel convenience. But it is slower to charge devices than simply plugging them in and requires they stay put on a pad where they're basically impossible to use. Fortunately, Electreon says its design works regardless of whether they're parked or in motion though it did install a couple of inductive charging stations in front of Michigan Central Station that are designed for stationary vehicles.

However, the eventual mile of road it has planned will still be maintained by the city and that might be a tall order. U.S. roads have been in rough shape for a while but Detroit has some really nasty segments in desperate need of care.

This is further complicated by the Michigan climate. Harsh, damp winters are absolutely brutal on roads, as the moisture creeps into cracks daily only to expand as the cold converts it into ice. This, combined with usual traffic, wreaks havoc on pavement. Michigan roads also tend to be salty during snowy months, encouraging the underside of vehicles to rust prematurely. One wonders how that might impact Electreon hardware that will need to be equipped beneath EVs.

---

Assuming, roughly, that one drives the 1 mile with one of the handful of "Electreon" approved vehicles at 35 mph twice a day…I would expect it might manage to add around 2 miles of range, maybe, to your vehicle? Will folks wind up slowing down to pick up a bit more charge?

EV's have 80 percent more problems than ICE:

Quote:

---

Electric vehicles (EVs) have vastly more problems that arise than gas-powered cars, a new report of American consumers reveals.

The survey from Consumer Reports, which asked owners of about 330,000 vehicles about issues they faced over the last year, found that EVs have almost 80 percent more problems than gas-powered cars using traditional combustion engines.

Most problems consumers face with EVs, the report suggests, are long charging times, a lack of charging stations in general, issues with the lithium-ion battery, outer and interior parts not fitting precisely, and engine failures.

The Associated Press (AP) reports:

Quote:

---

Consumer Reports derived its survey data from subscribers who owned EVs from the 2021 through 2023 model years and compared them with other vehicle types. In calculating a vehicle's average problem rate, the organization assigned extra weight to serious problems such as battery or engine failures.

EVs from the 2021 and 2022 model years overall had more than twice the problem rates of internal combustion vehicles. The rates were more closely aligned in the 2023 model year:

Those EVs had only 21% more problems than gasoline vehicles, Fisher said. [Emphasis added]

---

Michael Coram, who lives near Buffalo, New York, told the AP he had to turn his all-electric Chevrolet Bolt SUV on and off up to 12 times before he could get the car into drive because of the region's cold temperatures.

---

At least it got better in 2023.

Kansas Kid said:

---

aggieforester05 said:

---

Stupid pricing, who the hell would pay $60K for an electric 2WD truck with only 250 miles of range and 6.5 0-60? The dual motor should be $60K.

---

Musk is famous for maximing price when new models are brought to market and then lowering them. When the S Ludicrous mode came out, it was around $130k. Now you can get an S with Plaid mode and other new features for $90k. I have no idea where the price will be in 2 years but I would take less than the current price just given Tesla's track record.

I still would never buy it because I am not a fan of the look and I personally don't like pickups of any kind but clearly there is a market.

---

The market does seem to be growing as more and more EVs are being seen in the road, and not just Teslas

Was covered earlier in the thread, but probably mostly attributable to panel gaps for Tesla and battery issues for GM. They did their battery recall in 2021 and the survey was sent to consumer reports subscribers only. Betting there's a disproportionate number of Ford/GM owners in that pool.


As for the induction charging road, anyone that spends money on something like that anywhere in the world needs to get their ass kicked for being dumb. Any money spent on charging should be directed to charging stations along the highway.

The only induction charging that I can think of that's remotely feasible is at airports for taxi lines.

nortex97 said:

---

EV's have 80 percent more problems than ICE:

Quote:

---

Electric vehicles (EVs) have vastly more problems that arise than gas-powered cars, a new report of American consumers reveals.

The survey from Consumer Reports, which asked owners of about 330,000 vehicles about issues they faced over the last year, found that EVs have almost 80 percent more problems than gas-powered cars using traditional combustion engines.

Most problems consumers face with EVs, the report suggests, are long charging times, a lack of charging stations in general, issues with the lithium-ion battery, outer and interior parts not fitting precisely, and engine failures.

The Associated Press (AP) reports:

Quote:

---

Consumer Reports derived its survey data from subscribers who owned EVs from the 2021 through 2023 model years and compared them with other vehicle types. In calculating a vehicle's average problem rate, the organization assigned extra weight to serious problems such as battery or engine failures.

EVs from the 2021 and 2022 model years overall had more than twice the problem rates of internal combustion vehicles. The rates were more closely aligned in the 2023 model year:

Those EVs had only 21% more problems than gasoline vehicles, Fisher said. [Emphasis added]

---

Michael Coram, who lives near Buffalo, New York, told the AP he had to turn his all-electric Chevrolet Bolt SUV on and off up to 12 times before he could get the car into drive because of the region's cold temperatures.

---

At least it got better in 2023.

---

But … we were told fewer parts = fewer problems!

hph6203 said:

---

Was covered earlier in the thread, but probably mostly attributable to panel gaps for Tesla and battery issues for GM. They did their battery recall in 2021 and the survey was sent to consumer reports subscribers only. Betting there's a disproportionate number of Ford/GM owners in that pool.


As for the induction charging road, anyone that spends money on something like that anywhere in the world needs to get their ass kicked for being dumb. Any money spent on charging should be directed to charging stations along the highway.

The only induction charging that I can think of that's remotely feasible is at airports for taxi lines.

---

I-45 near downtown Houston would be another optimal place.

techno-ag said:

---

nortex97 said:

---

EV's have 80 percent more problems than ICE:

Quote:

---

Electric vehicles (EVs) have vastly more problems that arise than gas-powered cars, a new report of American consumers reveals.

The survey from Consumer Reports, which asked owners of about 330,000 vehicles about issues they faced over the last year, found that EVs have almost 80 percent more problems than gas-powered cars using traditional combustion engines.

Most problems consumers face with EVs, the report suggests, are long charging times, a lack of charging stations in general, issues with the lithium-ion battery, outer and interior parts not fitting precisely, and engine failures.

The Associated Press (AP) reports:

Quote:

---

Consumer Reports derived its survey data from subscribers who owned EVs from the 2021 through 2023 model years and compared them with other vehicle types. In calculating a vehicle's average problem rate, the organization assigned extra weight to serious problems such as battery or engine failures.

EVs from the 2021 and 2022 model years overall had more than twice the problem rates of internal combustion vehicles. The rates were more closely aligned in the 2023 model year:

Those EVs had only 21% more problems than gasoline vehicles, Fisher said. [Emphasis added]

---

Michael Coram, who lives near Buffalo, New York, told the AP he had to turn his all-electric Chevrolet Bolt SUV on and off up to 12 times before he could get the car into drive because of the region's cold temperatures.

---

At least it got better in 2023.

---

But … we were told fewer parts = fewer problems!

---

There are fewer problems, I don't care what consumer reports says.. I've had my EV 18 months and the only thing I've done is add window washer fluid.

Ok well I think you have made some good points throughout this discussion but refuting a survey related to 330K vehicles trumps your sole experience....

planoaggie123 said:

---

Ok well I think you have made some good points throughout this discussion but refuting a survey related to 330K vehicles trumps your sole experience....

---

I would like to know why inconsistent gaps in body panels is a reliability issue. While not ideal, fit and finish won't leave you strand or in a repair shop. Do they break down the data by manufacturer? That would be interesting to see since many models of ICE cars have had large reliability issues in their first year or two of production. My 2003 Corvette was a poster child that made me swear off buying a new model vehicle ever again.

I am not going to comment to that....i am largely commenting to nobody can say something is reliable b/c they have not had any issues....i have not had AIDS so nobody has had AIDs....right?

planoaggie123 said:

---

I am not going to comment to that....i am largely commenting to nobody can say something is reliable b/c they have not had any issues....i have not had AIDS so nobody has had AIDs....right?

---

I agree with you that any one persons experience does not represent a large population.

Congrats on not having AIDs.

haha thanks...i pat myself on the back on occasion....

planoaggie123 said:

---

Ok well I think you have made some good points throughout this discussion but refuting a survey related to 330K vehicles trumps your sole experience....

---

Not necessarily. Look at who was in the survey sample and what they included as a fault. Does a misaligned body panel really affect scheduled maintenance?

Quote:

---

I would like to know why inconsistent gaps in body panels is a reliability issue.

---

Because they needed data points to achieve a predetermined outcome.

Well refute that...don't say "i haven't had an issue so they don't have issues"....

planoaggie123 said:

---

Ok well I think you have made some good points throughout this discussion but refuting a survey related to 330K vehicles trumps your sole experience....

---

Except it's Consumer Reports. I've found their recommendations over the years to be ridiculous. Or maybe it's just virtually every car I have owned they have not recommended, lol. When I bought my Jeep Wrangler, they didn't recommend it because it had a "rough ride". Really? People who buy a Jeep don't know that?

Besides that, the complaint was panel gaps and other things I wouldn't call reliability issues. Certainly not maintenance.

To anyone that paid attention to the market in 2021 it's pretty clear what the issues that occurred were to create this report and why there's such a dramatic drop in issues into 2023 as compared to 2021/2022.

In 2021 Chevy issued a recall on their Chevy Bolt due to engineering design flaws that resulted in a higher than tolerable rate of fires. The total quantity of fires was small, but when talking about a vehicle catching fire in a garage you're dealing with a large potential liability for the company. They shut down production, limited charging rates to a relative trickle and requested that all owners return their vehicles for battery replacement.


Tesla on the other hand hasn't had a recall for battery or drivetrain issues, but in 2021 they were pretty well known for panel alignment issues and they were only a year into their Model Y production and hadn't improved their manufacturing process. They were still building vehicles in temporary tents and hadn't yet begun manufacturing in their Texas factory. They have since improved significantly on the manufacturing accuracy.


So what that report is likely reflecting is an engineering ineptitude by GM and cosmetic issues from a relatively new brand in the grand scheme of the auto industry. There weren't many other EVs on the market during that period as the great influx of models didn't occur until the latter half of 2022, which is why you're seeing inventory pileups at dealerships despite the total market growing at a >40% clip.

Should Tesla improve their cosmetic consistency even further? Absolutely, but that's way different than drivetrain or battery issues.

🔸 MANCHIN CRITICIZES BIDEN EV TAX CREDIT RULES AS SOFT ON CHINA

— *Walter Bloomberg (@DeItaone) December 1, 2023

Weird, I guess Joe Manchin didn't get the memo that EV's are not favorable to CCP China.

You're the one that has a real problem with it. Ideally we could divorce ourselves from the Chinese production pipeline, but that's not a realistic near term goal.

The question that was posed to you was the extent of benefit they're getting from refining raw materials, and you refused to answer.

For what it's worth they should absolutely stick to the requirements or do away with the credits all together, but they won't because the credits are what they have been, an attempt to save union labor in an environment where they are not going to be even remotely competitive.

It will be interesting to see if Tesla's employees are dumb enough to take their bait, as Musk said, if his employees want to unionize then the company failed them and they should.

hph6203 said:

---

You're the one that has a male problem with it. Ideally we could divorce ourselves from the Chinese production pipeline, but that's not a realistic near term goal.

The question that was posed to you was the extent of benefit they're getting from refining raw materials, and you refused to answer.

For what it's worth they should absolutely stick to the requirements or do away with the credits all together, but they won't because the credits are what they have been, an attempt to save union labor in an environment where they are not going to be even remotely competitive.

It will be interesting to see if Tesla's employees are dumb enough to take their bait, as Musk said, if his employees want to unionize then the company failed them and they should.

---

I'm sorry, but if you believe I am Joe Manchin you are simply mistaken.

It's interesting in a political sense that even now, as his career in politics is ending next year, after playing his role in the 'green new deal' to spike subsidies for EV's, as a dutiful Dem-CCP party member he feels a need/desire to speak out against EV subsidies as benefiting China though.

I'd never consider voting for him, under any circumstances.