slaughtr said:

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nortex97 said:

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slaughtr said:

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nortex97 said:

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slaughtr said:

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nortex97 said:

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slaughtr said:

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nortex97 said:

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Teslag said:

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There were posted yesterday in reply to one of your morning rants. You ignored them.

https://www.reuters.com/business/autos-transportation/australias-magnis-deal-with-tesla-supply-graphite-electric-vehicle-batteries-2023-02-20/

https://www.reuters.com/markets/commodities/tesla-supplier-syrah-expects-more-graphite-buys-ahead-china-export-ban-2023-10-26/

---

No, that just doesn't answer anything I asked. It's reuters covering a press release about more/growing.

Let me know if you figure out some statistic on metal content in Tesla batteries sold in America not coming from Chinese refineries. Thx again!

---

You let us know what percentage of components in your car are from China. Or your clothes. Or your sneakers. Or your computer that you spend all day on asking other people about the Chinese components in their life. Then I will send you mine. Deal?

---

Thank you for confirming you, as well, have no idea as to tangible goals for the BEV producers to deliver toward any established goals regarding a battery component % threshold not dependent on Chinese sources.

Deflect, obfuscate, denigrate all you want. It's really a simple question but I respect that y'all can't do it as the manufacturers don't put that out in nice formats for the press to report because it is…not helpful to them.

BEV's (of all brands) depend on CCP China for their key component; the batteries. This is a truth that cannot be obviated or mocked away, no matter how much some might want to discuss my blue jeans or anything else at all.

---

Why would I care when you don't care about the Chinese components in yours? It's not deflection or obfuscation. It's apathy.

---

Quote:

---

you, as well, have no idea as to tangible goals for the BEV producers to deliver toward any established goals regarding a battery component % threshold not dependent on Chinese sources.

---

It's that simple. It's not about my car, or blue jeans, or anything else. BEV's are a threat, politically. That's why the communists push them, here and in Europe/China.

I respect that if you knew an answer to the above, again, you'd quote it, but you have no clue that wouldn't prove my point. Thank you for answering.

---

Your tinfoil hat is a bit tight today, I think. I don't have an answer. I never looked and don't care. Why would I? Seems like a weird hill to die on for you today though. Ask a question nobody cares about and claim they are obfuscating Communists when they don't answer.

---

My tin foil hat? LOL. The concept of BEV's as a tool for control/economic device for the CCP etc. is not my own.

I asked a simple question, really, which I will I guess reiterate for a 5th or so time today, that is relevant as I have been told on blast so many times that it is untrue to even ask about; when will a consumer vehicle that is a BEV be sold in America, by what brand, that has a battery (the key component/differentiator, after all) without most materials (or even define a specific goal as a percent by mass of the battery) refined in the CCP? What goals to the 'most American" companies have to make that happen, and when?

That's tin foil hat though, to bring up, in the thread about…why some of us don't want to ever buy a BEV on the politics forum? And none of the champions have any answers even about certain chosen/fantasized brand(s)? It's all very affirming to my stance, thank you again. If anyone else has an answer I am curious what it is.

---

I need you to tell me how many ounces of Maple Syrup you and your family ate this year. When you don't know or refuse to answer, I'm just going to assume you are deflecting because you are a Justin Trudeau fan and a threat to democracy.

Am I doing it right?

---

What if my bottle says it is from Vermont?

Tanya 93 said:

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slaughtr said:

---

nortex97 said:

---

slaughtr said:

---

nortex97 said:

---

slaughtr said:

---

nortex97 said:

---

slaughtr said:

---

nortex97 said:

---

Teslag said:

---

There were posted yesterday in reply to one of your morning rants. You ignored them.

https://www.reuters.com/business/autos-transportation/australias-magnis-deal-with-tesla-supply-graphite-electric-vehicle-batteries-2023-02-20/

https://www.reuters.com/markets/commodities/tesla-supplier-syrah-expects-more-graphite-buys-ahead-china-export-ban-2023-10-26/

---

No, that just doesn't answer anything I asked. It's reuters covering a press release about more/growing.

Let me know if you figure out some statistic on metal content in Tesla batteries sold in America not coming from Chinese refineries. Thx again!

---

You let us know what percentage of components in your car are from China. Or your clothes. Or your sneakers. Or your computer that you spend all day on asking other people about the Chinese components in their life. Then I will send you mine. Deal?

---

Thank you for confirming you, as well, have no idea as to tangible goals for the BEV producers to deliver toward any established goals regarding a battery component % threshold not dependent on Chinese sources.

Deflect, obfuscate, denigrate all you want. It's really a simple question but I respect that y'all can't do it as the manufacturers don't put that out in nice formats for the press to report because it is…not helpful to them.

BEV's (of all brands) depend on CCP China for their key component; the batteries. This is a truth that cannot be obviated or mocked away, no matter how much some might want to discuss my blue jeans or anything else at all.

---

Why would I care when you don't care about the Chinese components in yours? It's not deflection or obfuscation. It's apathy.

---

Quote:

---

you, as well, have no idea as to tangible goals for the BEV producers to deliver toward any established goals regarding a battery component % threshold not dependent on Chinese sources.

---

It's that simple. It's not about my car, or blue jeans, or anything else. BEV's are a threat, politically. That's why the communists push them, here and in Europe/China.

I respect that if you knew an answer to the above, again, you'd quote it, but you have no clue that wouldn't prove my point. Thank you for answering.

---

Your tinfoil hat is a bit tight today, I think. I don't have an answer. I never looked and don't care. Why would I? Seems like a weird hill to die on for you today though. Ask a question nobody cares about and claim they are obfuscating Communists when they don't answer.

---

My tin foil hat? LOL. The concept of BEV's as a tool for control/economic device for the CCP etc. is not my own.

I asked a simple question, really, which I will I guess reiterate for a 5th or so time today, that is relevant as I have been told on blast so many times that it is untrue to even ask about; when will a consumer vehicle that is a BEV be sold in America, by what brand, that has a battery (the key component/differentiator, after all) without most materials (or even define a specific goal as a percent by mass of the battery) refined in the CCP? What goals to the 'most American" companies have to make that happen, and when?

That's tin foil hat though, to bring up, in the thread about…why some of us don't want to ever buy a BEV on the politics forum? And none of the champions have any answers even about certain chosen/fantasized brand(s)? It's all very affirming to my stance, thank you again. If anyone else has an answer I am curious what it is.

---

I need you to tell me how many ounces of Maple Syrup you and your family ate this year. When you don't know or refuse to answer, I'm just going to assume you are deflecting because you are a Justin Trudeau fan and a threat to democracy.

Am I doing it right?

---

What if my bottle says it is from Vermont?

---

Then you are a Bernie socialist according to some people on this board.

hph6203 said:

---

Not a deflection. You claim this is a significant shift in world power, I'm just wondering how significant it is. You like to ask questions, but don't like answering them?

Should be easy to answer. Right at the tip of your fingers since you've been claiming this same thing since the start of this thread a year and a half ago. Since before that. So what's the number?

---

More questions, no answers.

No EV fan seems willing to say when a BEV battery will be made without any, at all, given metrics of materials from the CCP refineries.

It's very interesting, given the fandom for these batteries. Usually there is some sort of propaganda folks cite, whether it is Travis Kelce, CNN, Fauci or Elon Musk etc. I guess not.

I'm reading words, but I'm not seeing numbers. I expected numbers. Like Kevin Sorbo in Hercules, I must say, I'm disappointed.

Seriously, you're posing a question asking how/when EVs can extricate themselves from China. All I'm asking is to what degree I'm helping the reds if it isn't done.

One number.

Kansas Kid said:

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Tanya 93 said:

---

slaughtr said:

---

nortex97 said:

---

slaughtr said:

---

nortex97 said:

---

slaughtr said:

---

nortex97 said:

---

slaughtr said:

---

nortex97 said:

---

Teslag said:

---

There were posted yesterday in reply to one of your morning rants. You ignored them.

https://www.reuters.com/business/autos-transportation/australias-magnis-deal-with-tesla-supply-graphite-electric-vehicle-batteries-2023-02-20/

https://www.reuters.com/markets/commodities/tesla-supplier-syrah-expects-more-graphite-buys-ahead-china-export-ban-2023-10-26/

---

No, that just doesn't answer anything I asked. It's reuters covering a press release about more/growing.

Let me know if you figure out some statistic on metal content in Tesla batteries sold in America not coming from Chinese refineries. Thx again!

---

You let us know what percentage of components in your car are from China. Or your clothes. Or your sneakers. Or your computer that you spend all day on asking other people about the Chinese components in their life. Then I will send you mine. Deal?

---

Thank you for confirming you, as well, have no idea as to tangible goals for the BEV producers to deliver toward any established goals regarding a battery component % threshold not dependent on Chinese sources.

Deflect, obfuscate, denigrate all you want. It's really a simple question but I respect that y'all can't do it as the manufacturers don't put that out in nice formats for the press to report because it is…not helpful to them.

BEV's (of all brands) depend on CCP China for their key component; the batteries. This is a truth that cannot be obviated or mocked away, no matter how much some might want to discuss my blue jeans or anything else at all.

---

Why would I care when you don't care about the Chinese components in yours? It's not deflection or obfuscation. It's apathy.

---

Quote:

---

you, as well, have no idea as to tangible goals for the BEV producers to deliver toward any established goals regarding a battery component % threshold not dependent on Chinese sources.

---

It's that simple. It's not about my car, or blue jeans, or anything else. BEV's are a threat, politically. That's why the communists push them, here and in Europe/China.

I respect that if you knew an answer to the above, again, you'd quote it, but you have no clue that wouldn't prove my point. Thank you for answering.

---

Your tinfoil hat is a bit tight today, I think. I don't have an answer. I never looked and don't care. Why would I? Seems like a weird hill to die on for you today though. Ask a question nobody cares about and claim they are obfuscating Communists when they don't answer.

---

My tin foil hat? LOL. The concept of BEV's as a tool for control/economic device for the CCP etc. is not my own.

I asked a simple question, really, which I will I guess reiterate for a 5th or so time today, that is relevant as I have been told on blast so many times that it is untrue to even ask about; when will a consumer vehicle that is a BEV be sold in America, by what brand, that has a battery (the key component/differentiator, after all) without most materials (or even define a specific goal as a percent by mass of the battery) refined in the CCP? What goals to the 'most American" companies have to make that happen, and when?

That's tin foil hat though, to bring up, in the thread about…why some of us don't want to ever buy a BEV on the politics forum? And none of the champions have any answers even about certain chosen/fantasized brand(s)? It's all very affirming to my stance, thank you again. If anyone else has an answer I am curious what it is.

---

I need you to tell me how many ounces of Maple Syrup you and your family ate this year. When you don't know or refuse to answer, I'm just going to assume you are deflecting because you are a Justin Trudeau fan and a threat to democracy.

Am I doing it right?

---

What if my bottle says it is from Vermont?

---

Then you are a Bernie socialist according to some people on this board.

---

I did like Paul Wellstone, but don't know if Minnesota has maple trees.

Definitely not buying an EV ever. Turning your car into a cellphone on wheels is like a prisoner just begging the jailer to shut & lock his cell door.

I've seen enough of what the govt. can do since 2020 to know better.

nortex97 said:

---

hph6203 said:

---

Not a deflection. You claim this is a significant shift in world power, I'm just wondering how significant it is. You like to ask questions, but don't like answering them?

Should be easy to answer. Right at the tip of your fingers since you've been claiming this same thing since the start of this thread a year and a half ago. Since before that. So what's the number?

---

More questions, no answers.

No EV fan seems willing to say when a BEV battery will be made without any, at all, given metrics of materials from the CCP refineries.

It's very interesting, given the fandom for these batteries. Usually there is some sort of propaganda folks cite, whether it is Travis Kelce, CNN, Fauci or Elon Musk etc. I guess not.

---

Funny how you didn't respond to my post which shows Tesla is on pace to source all major materials for the batteries from non-China sources within 3-5 years for his cars made in the US. This is consistent with his model of trying to control as much of the supply chain as possible.

You complain about questions and no answers and yet you won't answer our questions. Are you worried about the environment damage from ICE vehicles and their fuel? Are you worried that those cars also need parts and material from China? You clearly are worried about with EVs so I would assume you are also worried about nonEVs.

The reason I ask is that the best I can tell the total revenues from refining battery materials after backing out the share given to the mines is somewhere in the 100's of dollars range and even if you assume $1000/pack you're talking about $15 billion for the total domestic consumption of 15 million automobiles. Just as a ballpark. Doesn't seem like a tilt to the center of gravity for world power to me, but you seem confident and must have numbers to back up your assertion about this impending global threat. Surely it's more than that based upon your rhetoric, so I'm just asking for a number.

hph6203 said:

---

The reason I ask is that the best I can tell the total revenues from refining battery materials after backing out the share given to the mines is somewhere in the 100's of dollars range and even if you assume $1000/pack you're talking about $15 billion for the total domestic consumption of 15 million automobiles. Just as a ballpark. Doesn't seem like a tilt to the center of gravity for world power to me, but you seem confident and must have numbers to back up your assertion about this impending global threat. Surely it's more than that based upon your rhetoric, so I'm just asking for a number.

---

The beating heart of every EV sold is the $20K-$30K battery within. That is constructed of materials entirely/90 percent plus from the CCP, and I've shown repeatedly they dominate and control the supply chain for them with an intent to manipulate the market for those materials based on political goals. Obviously, I am the board's BEV Tesla supplier expert, so I will go ahead and enlighten everyone that Tesla relies around 40% on its suppliers today from China, and very likely over 80 percent of the mass of the materials in all of the batteries sold today.

Quote:

---

A recent analysis of publicly-available information about Tesla's supply chain has reportedly revealed that almost 40% of the suppliers for materials used in the company's batteries are Chinese companies. The analysis was conducted by Nikkei Asia in collaboration with Tokyo's Fronteo, which utilizes a machine-learning algorithm to find data.

As noted in the companies' analysis, public information included in financial statements and press releases identified 13,428 companies that were believed to supply items for Tesla's electric vehicle production. The number includes "quinary" suppliers, which are five steps up the supply chain.

Interestingly enough, China ended up being listed as the largest supplier of materials for the lithium-ion batteries that are used in Tesla's electric vehicles. Companies from China comprised 39% of the 61 firms that were listed under the EV maker's "storage battery" category.

---

And that's not really surprising at all, given that over half of all Tesla's sold globally are produced in China itself. In fact Musk has praised the Chinese workers willingness to go to 12-hour shifts etc, noting Shanghai workers make the highest quality Tesla's. And sure, they are like many trying to get the Australians to do more of the refining themselves, but even by 2027 Australia might only do 20 percent of that nasty work on lithium, up from today's 1 percent.

No one has any idea even about a model being produced without these components, just vague hopium because Tesla is going to refine some Lithium in south Texas and wants to 'move away from' China supposedly (to maximize subsidies/credits our resident fans are opposed to) but no documentation as to when, for what models, or where/how those materials will be refined in the US and where the waste products will go from that.

That's because no one has a plan to do that, actually, and every single EV from every single brand is powered by a Chinese-sourced lithium battery. Feet stomping, maple syrup, blue jeans, communist Paul Wellstone and his great memorial political rally (LOL) do not count as substantive answers/math.

Tanya 93 said:

---

slaughtr said:

---

nortex97 said:

---

slaughtr said:

---

nortex97 said:

---

slaughtr said:

---

nortex97 said:

---

slaughtr said:

---

nortex97 said:

---

Teslag said:

---

There were posted yesterday in reply to one of your morning rants. You ignored them.

https://www.reuters.com/business/autos-transportation/australias-magnis-deal-with-tesla-supply-graphite-electric-vehicle-batteries-2023-02-20/

https://www.reuters.com/markets/commodities/tesla-supplier-syrah-expects-more-graphite-buys-ahead-china-export-ban-2023-10-26/

---

No, that just doesn't answer anything I asked. It's reuters covering a press release about more/growing.

Let me know if you figure out some statistic on metal content in Tesla batteries sold in America not coming from Chinese refineries. Thx again!

---

You let us know what percentage of components in your car are from China. Or your clothes. Or your sneakers. Or your computer that you spend all day on asking other people about the Chinese components in their life. Then I will send you mine. Deal?

---

Thank you for confirming you, as well, have no idea as to tangible goals for the BEV producers to deliver toward any established goals regarding a battery component % threshold not dependent on Chinese sources.

Deflect, obfuscate, denigrate all you want. It's really a simple question but I respect that y'all can't do it as the manufacturers don't put that out in nice formats for the press to report because it is…not helpful to them.

BEV's (of all brands) depend on CCP China for their key component; the batteries. This is a truth that cannot be obviated or mocked away, no matter how much some might want to discuss my blue jeans or anything else at all.

---

Why would I care when you don't care about the Chinese components in yours? It's not deflection or obfuscation. It's apathy.

---

Quote:

---

you, as well, have no idea as to tangible goals for the BEV producers to deliver toward any established goals regarding a battery component % threshold not dependent on Chinese sources.

---

It's that simple. It's not about my car, or blue jeans, or anything else. BEV's are a threat, politically. That's why the communists push them, here and in Europe/China.

I respect that if you knew an answer to the above, again, you'd quote it, but you have no clue that wouldn't prove my point. Thank you for answering.

---

Your tinfoil hat is a bit tight today, I think. I don't have an answer. I never looked and don't care. Why would I? Seems like a weird hill to die on for you today though. Ask a question nobody cares about and claim they are obfuscating Communists when they don't answer.

---

My tin foil hat? LOL. The concept of BEV's as a tool for control/economic device for the CCP etc. is not my own.

I asked a simple question, really, which I will I guess reiterate for a 5th or so time today, that is relevant as I have been told on blast so many times that it is untrue to even ask about; when will a consumer vehicle that is a BEV be sold in America, by what brand, that has a battery (the key component/differentiator, after all) without most materials (or even define a specific goal as a percent by mass of the battery) refined in the CCP? What goals to the 'most American" companies have to make that happen, and when?

That's tin foil hat though, to bring up, in the thread about…why some of us don't want to ever buy a BEV on the politics forum? And none of the champions have any answers even about certain chosen/fantasized brand(s)? It's all very affirming to my stance, thank you again. If anyone else has an answer I am curious what it is.

---

I need you to tell me how many ounces of Maple Syrup you and your family ate this year. When you don't know or refuse to answer, I'm just going to assume you are deflecting because you are a Justin Trudeau fan and a threat to democracy.

Am I doing it right?

---

What if my bottle says it is from Vermont?

---

That's a scam to force you into buying communist syrup and propping up Trudeau.

nortex97 said:

---

hph6203 said:

---

The reason I ask is that the best I can tell the total revenues from refining battery materials after backing out the share given to the mines is somewhere in the 100's of dollars range and even if you assume $1000/pack you're talking about $15 billion for the total domestic consumption of 15 million automobiles. Just as a ballpark. Doesn't seem like a tilt to the center of gravity for world power to me, but you seem confident and must have numbers to back up your assertion about this impending global threat. Surely it's more than that based upon your rhetoric, so I'm just asking for a number.

---

The beating heart of every EV sold is the $20K-$30K battery within. That is constructed of materials entirely/90 percent plus from the CCP, and I've shown repeatedly they dominate and control the supply chain for them with an intent to manipulate the market for those materials based on political goals. Obviously, I am the board's BEV Tesla supplier expert, so I will go ahead and enlighten everyone that Tesla relies around 40% on its suppliers today from China, and very likely over 80 percent of the mass of the materials in all of the batteries sold today.

Quote:

---

A recent analysis of publicly-available information about Tesla's supply chain has reportedly revealed that almost 40% of the suppliers for materials used in the company's batteries are Chinese companies. The analysis was conducted by Nikkei Asia in collaboration with Tokyo's Fronteo, which utilizes a machine-learning algorithm to find data.

As noted in the companies' analysis, public information included in financial statements and press releases identified 13,428 companies that were believed to supply items for Tesla's electric vehicle production. The number includes "quinary" suppliers, which are five steps up the supply chain.

Interestingly enough, China ended up being listed as the largest supplier of materials for the lithium-ion batteries that are used in Tesla's electric vehicles. Companies from China comprised 39% of the 61 firms that were listed under the EV maker's "storage battery" category.

---

And that's not really surprising at all, given that over half of all Tesla's sold globally are produced in China itself. In fact Musk has praised the Chinese workers willingness to go to 12-hour shifts etc, noting Shanghai workers make the highest quality Tesla's. And sure, they are like many trying to get the Australians to do more of the refining themselves, but even by 2027 Australia might only do 20 percent of that nasty work on lithium, up from today's 1 percent.

No one has any idea even about a model being produced without these components, just vague hopium because Tesla is going to refine some Lithium in south Texas and wants to 'move away from' China supposedly (to maximize subsidies/credits our resident fans are opposed to) but no documentation as to when, for what models, or where/how those materials will be refined in the US and where the waste products will go from that.

That's because no one has a plan to do that, actually, and every single EV from every single brand is powered by a Chinese-sourced lithium battery. Feet stomping, maple syrup, blue jeans, communist Paul Wellstone and his great memorial political rally (LOL) do not count as substantive answers/math.

---

Nortex, I have finally seen the light. You are so correct that the market as it is today is how it will be forever into the future. All of these announced refineries and mines outside of China to make the materials for batteries are false flags to lull us into complacency. The plans to eliminate many of these materials is also lies. In other words, the capitalist system doesn't respond to shortages or incentives and your firm beliefs in Communism will always win out.

Just some of the false flags in lithium production just in Texas and Arkansas
https://www.investopedia.com/exxonmobil-says-construction-underway-on-new-lithium-well-in-arkansas-8401091

https://www.dallasfed.org/research/swe/2023/swe2302

https://www.reuters.com/business/autos-transportation/tesla-plans-produce-lithium-1-mln-vehicles-texas-refinery-elon-musk-2023-05-08/

https://www.standardlithium.com/projects/arkansas-smackover
Some of these were so bold as to break ground just to throw us off the tracks.

Thanks for enlightening us with your amazing analysis that is totally on point.

More misleading information. This time from Bloomberg.

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2023-11-29/electric-car-makers-can-stop-worrying-so-much-about-lithium?srnd=premium&sref=hJK8NQgb

For at least the next year, it looks like carmakers can cross off lithium costs as a major concern, with prices under pressure from a wave of new supply. The focus now is on how much further prices need to fall to stem the tide through production cuts.

While global EV sales are still growing at a fast clip, they're not expanding as rapidly as many in the industry expected amid economic uncertainty in China, rising borrowing costs and inflation pinching consumers in other major economies.

You're welcome! Also, thank you for pointing out the lithium processing facilities being constructed are just…subsidies from the "Inflation Reduction Act." Aka, FJB's green new deal of hand outs.

Quote:

---

With it comes the ability for Tesla to secure domestic supplies of refined lithium and capitalize on the 2022 Inflation Reduction Act's subsidies for EVs.

---

Not enough to even make a dent in China's monopolistic control, but enough perhaps to get Tesla some more 'credits' (aka subsidies) so people can afford more of them on the rest of our collective tab and brag about it.

EV's getting these subsides should all come with Biden-Harris 2024 and "I love the CCP" bumper stickers.

Chinese materials are okay if the engine is internal combustion.


That's what I've taken from this thread

I think it was on the Vigilance Elite podcast where Ryan Montgomery went into a parking lot where there were a ton of Teslas and hacked all of them at once. I have not watched the episode yet but I think he opened all of the fuel doors at the same time, unlocked the cars, and started them. Honestly I think this hack would work on most new vehicles since they use similar technology to lock and start the vehicles but once you get into the Tesla system there is a lot more you can do

From someone who has done all-electric off-road vehicles for over a decade and sees the technology we use to put into our machines not being hacked (some weigh close to 600,000 pounds) its crazy to think that someone can easily hack something as complex as a Tesla. We use multiple layers of protection, frequency hopping remotes, and several other means to protect the machines.

KIMBERLEY STRASSEL: The Biden Energy Slush Fund: A $400 billion pile of cash dwarfing most private green investment vehicles.

Quote:

---

Mr. Shah isn't a household nameunless your household includes lobbyists, financiers or crony capitalists. Those are the clients of Mr. Shah's fief, the revived Energy Department Loan Programs Office. Last humiliated a decade ago, it's part of that crack DOE bureaucracy that bet on such green tech ventures as Abound (the failed solar company), Fisker Automotive (the failed electric-car maker) and A123 (the failed battery maker). "This announcement today" is about "investing in the infrastructure and technology of the future," crowed Vice President Biden in 2009, unveiling a $535 million DOE loan for a solar outfit he promised would power 500,000 homes and create 1,000 jobs. That outfit was Solyndra.
As if to prove that anything Mr. Biden could botch 10 years ago he can botch bigger and better now, the loan office is back, baby. Americans gasped at the audacity of Barack Obama's $814 billion stimulus bill in 2009and of gambling some $80 billion on clean energybut that's peanuts. The Biden spending rampage has bestowed on Mr. Shah, director of the loan department, a stunning $400 billion to hand out to green companies too risky for traditional lenders, or too politically powerful to turn down. According to a July Journal story, the "pile of cash is at least 20 times as big as most private green-energy funds."
With that kind of funny money, Mr. Shah and DOE aren't restricting themselves to small-time bets. The agency agreed to a $1 billion loan for Monolith, a company that promises to make hydrogen out of natural gas. Sunnova, a solar company, landed a $3 billion loan guarantee. Then there are all the real paupers. General Motors and LG scooped up $2.5 billion to build electric-vehicle battery plants. Ford landed a record $9.2 billion battery commitment. The Ford loan would be $3.3 billion larger than what the company borrowed during the Detroit meltdown of 2008-09.
The Obama-era loan office was tarred by accusations of cronyism; dollars had a way of going to the politically connected. Now Sen. John Barrasso (R., Wyo.), ranking member of the Senate Energy and Natural Resources Committee, and Rep. Cathy McMorris Rodgers (R., Wash.), who chairs the House Energy and Commerce Committee, have sent a letter to Mr. Shah demanding answers about an October report in the Washington Free Beacon. It claimed a private trade association Mr. Shah founded as a "networking hub" in 2017 has "become a gatekeeper for companies seeking billions of dollars in financing from Shah's office."
The report explains that the Cleantech Leaders Roundtable didn't even "have a website until three years ago," though in the year after Mr. Shah left its revenue "more than tripled." It says Cleantech "hosts sold-out receptions featuring Shah for its paying members." In September Cleantech and the loans office "co-hosted an invitation-only conference" in D.C. "for companies looking for loansand Cleantech Leaders was in charge of the invite list and ticket sales."
Since 2021, when Mr. Shah was named loan-office head, "companies connected to the trade association have raked in cash from Shah's office."

---

This time, these non-crony 'investments' by tax payers will pay off. BEV fans are just sure of it. (Nevermind the Ford plant one, which they've already gutted plans on).

nortex97 said:

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You're welcome! Also, thank you for pointing out the lithium processing facilities being constructed are just…subsidies from the "Inflation Reduction Act." Aka, FJB's green new deal of hand outs.

Quote:

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With it comes the ability for Tesla to secure domestic supplies of refined lithium and capitalize on the 2022 Inflation Reduction Act's subsidies for EVs.

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Not enough to even make a dent in China's monopolistic control, but enough perhaps to get Tesla some more 'credits' (aka subsidies) so people can afford more of them on the rest of our collective tab and brag about it.

EV's getting these subsides should all come with Biden-Harris 2024 and "I love the CCP" bumper stickers.

---

No, according to you these facilities won't get built because they would end reliance on Chinese supplies. The free market doesn't work and solve shortages as you have clearly enlightened those of us that believe in the free market. Only a true liberal like yourself sees the light that the market won't add capacity outside China.

Kansas Kid said:

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nortex97 said:

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You're welcome! Also, thank you for pointing out the lithium processing facilities being constructed are just…subsidies from the "Inflation Reduction Act." Aka, FJB's green new deal of hand outs.

Quote:

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With it comes the ability for Tesla to secure domestic supplies of refined lithium and capitalize on the 2022 Inflation Reduction Act's subsidies for EVs.

---

Not enough to even make a dent in China's monopolistic control, but enough perhaps to get Tesla some more 'credits' (aka subsidies) so people can afford more of them on the rest of our collective tab and brag about it.

EV's getting these subsides should all come with Biden-Harris 2024 and "I love the CCP" bumper stickers.

---

No, according to you these facilities won't get built because they would end reliance on Chinese supplies. The free market doesn't work and solve shortages as you have clearly enlightened those of us that believe in the free market. Only a true liberal like yourself sees the light that the market won't add capacity outside China.

---

Despite the fact that Tesla's lithium refining plant already broke ground in Texas. He'll omit that as well per usual.

Respectfully, I don't know if you're having trouble with words, you're certainly having trouble with facts, but I asked how much money is allocated from the end price of the battery to the refining of the materials, because that's what you're insisting needs to be done in order to avoid global domination by the Chinese.


As far as the facts of your post, the battery pack replacement cost for some older model Tesla's that rely on lower volume 18650 cells might hit $20k and newer model vehicles from legacy OEMs might hit $30k. That's not the cost of the battery, that's the cost of the labor and the battery plus margin for stocking and handling the battery. At the pack level it's more like high single digits to low teens dependent upon battery size, so like I said, trouble with facts.

Teslag said:

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Chinese materials are okay if the engine is internal combustion.


That's what I've taken from this thread

---

Well played. None of vehicles bought and sold in the U.S. will ever be made without materials from other countries and likely some that we're not besties with. We'll also never see any vehicles in our lifetime, EV or ICE, that don't include materials made from the petroleum industry. The choice between the two will come done to consumer choice. I drove an EV for the first time a few weeks ago. Really fast, very cool....but just for around town. Texas is too big and lacking in charging stations for road trips in these yet. Someday maybe. And the 10 year lifespan on the batteries and their replacement cost has to improve.

I see them currently as the big brick cell phones of the 80's.

hph6203 said:

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Respectfully, I don't know if you're having trouble with words, you're certainly having trouble with facts, but I asked how much money is allocated from the end price of the battery to the refining of the materials, because that's what you're insisting needs to be done in order to avoid global domination by the Chinese.


As far as the facts of your post, the battery pack replacement cost for some older model Tesla's that rely on lower volume 18650 cells might hit $20k and newer model vehicles from legacy OEMs might hit $30k. That's not the cost of the battery, that's the cost of the labor and the battery plus margin for stocking and handling the battery. At the pack level it's more like high single digits to low teens dependent upon battery size, so like I said, trouble with facts.

---

You keep circling back around as though I'm on a witness stand when all I asked for was how much, by mass, will a given model be produced of BEV battery from non-CCP sourced components/refined materials and when.

I've tried to help you. I am not sure why you have a belief that somehow into thinking Tesla batteries can be purchased in the high single digits, but as the resident BEV expert I'll just note that isn't what folks have seen, unless in a stripper-model 3 with the tiniest battery.

Usually, labor costs are a lot in these as they are structurally mounted often, and require a lot of supplies/testing to take them out due to all the cooling intricacies and sensors. Again, happy to try to help you learn more. BEV's depend universally on CCP sourced materials today for their batteries, and I don't think anyone should trust the Biden subsidies/'investments' in crony companies to change that. Hopefully once conservatives gain some control of the executive branch in the future the subsidies can be cut, and we can finally decrease the waste/number of BEV's on our roads in this country, before the danger escalates any further.

Quote:

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unless in a stripper-model 3 with the tiniest battery.

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You mean the one that's one of their most popular models and meant for the masses?

BluHorseShu said:

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Teslag said:

---

Chinese materials are okay if the engine is internal combustion.


That's what I've taken from this thread

---

Well played. None of vehicles bought and sold in the U.S. will ever be made without materials from other countries and likely some that we're not besties with. We'll also never see any vehicles in our lifetime, EV or ICE, that don't include materials made from the petroleum industry. The choice between the two will come done to consumer choice. I drove an EV for the first time a few weeks ago. Really fast, very cool....but just for around town. Texas is too big and lacking in charging stations for road trips in these yet. Someday maybe. And the 10 year lifespan on the batteries and their replacement cost has to improve.

I see them currently as the big brick cell phones of the 80's.

---

Exactly.


Internal combustion is okay if it uses chinese materials and powered by an energy source that props up terrorist countries, Russia, and yes even the big bad chinese because reasons.


Battery car bad because china or something.

Cybertruck deliveries start on Thursday

— Elon Musk (@elonmusk) November 28, 2023

I'm treating you like a witness on a witness stand, because you're claiming that it is an important metric to consider in the transition to this new mode of transportation, and I'm just asking you to define how important it is since you claim it's so important and given you're the self proclaimed resident battery expert I figured you should know.

I don't particularly care how much it is, because based upon what I know about the amount of money directed to the refinement of materials they are not getting anywhere near rich off of completing those tasks. Certainly not compared to the total efficiency gains from the shift to electric.

And as the resident battery expert I'm sure you're aware that the price that a repair shop charges to the customer for parts is not the same as the price they pay to the supplier, and the price that a repair shop pays for the parts is not the same as the price that the manufacturer pays through the supply chain for the manufacture of the vehicle. So quoting prices that appear on invoices for battery repair isn't exactly representative of the price the manufacturer actually pays when manufacturing the vehicle. But you know that, because you're the battery expert. Right?


So help me out battery expert, what is the collective enrichment of the refiners in China for the raw materials in batteries if the battery pack is manufactured in the U.S.? You like to ask questions, but when they're directed to you it turns into a pivot to the same talking points that bear little relevance to the question being asked.

hph6203 said:

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I'm treating you like a witness on a witness stand, because you're claiming that it is an important metric to consider in the transition to this new mode of transportation, and I'm just asking you to define how important it is since you claim it's so important and are in you're the self proclaimed resident battery expert. I don't particularly care how much it is, because based upon what I know about the amount of money directed to the refinement of materials they are not getting anywhere near rich off of completing those tasks. Certainly not compared to the total efficiency gains from the shift to electric.


And as the resident battery expert I'm sure you're aware that the price that a repair shop charges to the customer for parts is not the same as the price they pay to the supplier, and the price that a repair shop pays for the parts is not the same as the price that the manufacturer pays through the systematized supply chain for the manufacture of the vehicle. So quoting prices that appear on invoices for battery repair isn't exactly representative of the price the manufacturer actually pays when manufacturing the vehicle. But you know that, because you're the battery expert. Right?


So help me out battery expert, what is the collective enrichment of the refiners in China for the raw materials in batteries if the battery pack is manufactured in the U.S.? You like to ask questions, but when they're directed to you it turns into a pivot to the same talking points that bear little relevance to the question being asked.

---

You mean our resident battery expert that thinks there are rare earth elements in batteries?

Quote:

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Certainly not compared to the total efficiency gains from the shift to electric.

---

What efficiency gains are you talking about? These heavier, non-recycled vehicles are dangerous on the road and in the garages. The waste produced is huge, and by producing them at scale we'd be handing control over the refinement of needed materials to China, because Joe Biden's plan to refine it all here without creating a huge toxic mess or investing in enormous growth in power generation is a fools errand like everything else he touches. A123, Solyndra, Fisker, and now Texas/Arkansas lithium hopes. Absurd.

Besides, you don't have a clue, again, nor do any of the other fans, how much mass in your key component, the battery, comes from being refined in CCP wastelands which they are now beginning to turn the screws on. Nope, I will stick with my reliable ICE car that can be produced with far less fossil fuels, cleanly, here and then powered and refueled cleanly using cheap american Gas. Again, let me know when you or anyone else figures out a BEV battery is going to be cleanly produced, here, without CCP metals in it. Thx again!

What battery cells, not packs, are made in the USA? I have not looked but all of the battery cells we purchase come from China

nortex97 said:

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Quote:

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Certainly not compared to the total efficiency gains from the shift to electric.

---

What efficiency gains are you talking about? These heavier, non-recycled vehicles are dangerous on the road and in the garages. The waste produced is huge, and by producing them at scale we'd be handing control over the refinement of needed materials to China, because Joe Biden's plan to refine it all here without creating a huge toxic mess or investing in enormous growth in power generation is a fools errand like everything else he touches. A123, Solyndra, Fisker, and now Texas/Arkansas lithium hopes. Absurd.

Besides, you don't have a clue, again, nor do any of the other fans, how much mass in your key component, the battery, comes from being refined in CCP wastelands which they are now beginning to turn the screws on. Nope, I will stick with my reliable ICE car that can be produced with far less fossil fuels, cleanly, here and then powered and refueled cleanly using cheap american Gas. Again, let me know when you or anyone else figures out a BEV battery is going to be cleanly produced, here, without CCP metals in it. Thx again!

---

No issue there...just creates more inefficient, over-paid, government funded union jobs....that is what we need, right???

Teslag said:

---

BluHorseShu said:

---

Teslag said:

---

Chinese materials are okay if the engine is internal combustion.


That's what I've taken from this thread

---

Well played. None of vehicles bought and sold in the U.S. will ever be made without materials from other countries and likely some that we're not besties with. We'll also never see any vehicles in our lifetime, EV or ICE, that don't include materials made from the petroleum industry. The choice between the two will come done to consumer choice. I drove an EV for the first time a few weeks ago. Really fast, very cool....but just for around town. Texas is too big and lacking in charging stations for road trips in these yet. Someday maybe. And the 10 year lifespan on the batteries and their replacement cost has to improve.

I see them currently as the big brick cell phones of the 80's.

---

Exactly.


Internal combustion is okay if it uses chinese materials and powered by an energy source that props up terrorist countries, Russia, and yes even the big bad chinese because reasons.


Battery car bad because china or something.

---

To take a page from Chris Rock, "It's all right if it's all Big Oil."

Kansas Kid said:

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hph6203 said:

---

I'm treating you like a witness on a witness stand, because you're claiming that it is an important metric to consider in the transition to this new mode of transportation, and I'm just asking you to define how important it is since you claim it's so important and are in you're the self proclaimed resident battery expert. I don't particularly care how much it is, because based upon what I know about the amount of money directed to the refinement of materials they are not getting anywhere near rich off of completing those tasks. Certainly not compared to the total efficiency gains from the shift to electric.


And as the resident battery expert I'm sure you're aware that the price that a repair shop charges to the customer for parts is not the same as the price they pay to the supplier, and the price that a repair shop pays for the parts is not the same as the price that the manufacturer pays through the systematized supply chain for the manufacture of the vehicle. So quoting prices that appear on invoices for battery repair isn't exactly representative of the price the manufacturer actually pays when manufacturing the vehicle. But you know that, because you're the battery expert. Right?


So help me out battery expert, what is the collective enrichment of the refiners in China for the raw materials in batteries if the battery pack is manufactured in the U.S.? You like to ask questions, but when they're directed to you it turns into a pivot to the same talking points that bear little relevance to the question being asked.

---

You mean our resident battery expert that thinks there are rare earth elements in batteries?

---

I really feel like I am deserving of a stipend for helping to educate so many EV fans here; many EV's will still be needing these in 2025+, yes, and all of them will need escalating, not decreasing copper supply too which…is a problem.

Quote:

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Rare Earth Elements

• Top producer: China
• Uses: Permanent magnets for EV motors, wind turbines, electronics

Rare earth elements (REEs) such as dysprosium, terbium, and neodymium are essential for making permanent magnets for EV motors, wind turbines, national defense, electronics, and more.

China is the largest producer of REEs, accounting for 70% of production and 90% of processing in 2022 and into 2023. The U.S., Australia, and Canada funded domestic REE mining and processing plants in 2022 to reduce dependence on China

---

Quote:

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Cobalt

• Top producers: Democratic Republic of the Congo, Indonesia, China
• Uses: EVs, tablets, smartphones, tools, nickel-based alloys

Cobalt is another important metal primarily used to make batteries for EVs, smartphones, and tablets.12 Demand for cobalt jumped 70% from 2017 to 2022, and continues to rise as clean energy applications for cobalt rose to 40% over the same period. Demand for cobalt is expected to increase in the future due to its importance in making EVs and for energy storage.1

The Democratic Republic of the Congo is the leading producer of cobalt, and made up more than 70% of the world's cobalt production in 2022. Indonesia is another top producer of cobalt, and tripled its cobalt production in 2022. China also made up more than 75% of the world's refined cobalt output in the same year.13

Copper

• Top producers: Chile, Peru, China
• Uses: Electricity, wind turbines, solar power, energy storage, EVs

Copper is essential for any technology related to electricity, and is a key element in the transition to clean energy. Copper is used widely for energy storage, generates power from solar and wind sources to deliver clean energy, and is used heavily in EV production. The motor coils that drive the engine in electric cars, the battery, and the cables for charging stations all rely on copper.14

After several years of remaining relatively flat, copper production picked up in 2022. However, due to challenges such as water shortages, declining ore grade, and protests from local communities in major copper-producing countries Chile and Peru, growth may decline after 2024. The top producers of copper are Chile, Peru, and China.

---

Tesla sources all of the cells for their Long Range and Performance Model Y and 3 vehicles from their battery plant in Nevada, with their 18650 cells for their lower volume S/X vehicles, in part, from Japan. They partner with Panasonic to manufacture the batteries and the integration of the battery packs is done in Nevada.

They are ramping their production of their 4680 cells, with the initial production going to Model Y made in Texas. They've ceased the integration of those cells into the Model Y and have started stockpiling them for integration into their Cybertruck production line.

They are adding production lines to both their Texas 4680 lines and expanding production at their Nevada plant to include production of the 4680 cells (they had to finalize their v2 design). Their production lines are anticipated to be some of the most productive in the world on a sq ft basis.


The only cells they source from China are the LFP batteries that are integrated into their standard range Model 3 and Y vehicles.


The above is for their U.S. based manufacturing. Cells are sourced from other suppliers for international production.

P.U.T.U said:

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What battery cells, not packs, are made in the USA? I have not looked but all of the battery cells we purchase come from China

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I think Tesla and LG are making actual cells in the US. LG planned for 4 I think total, but then scaled back to 3, I believe 2 are up and running. Tesla I don't really keep track of but I have seen some videos this year and I think they have one or two places making them already.

The Chinese were also going to build some plants in partnerships here for Biden bucks/subsidies but some of those got shelved due to…wait for it, lack of demand.

BluHorseShu said:

---

Teslag said:

---

Chinese materials are okay if the engine is internal combustion.


That's what I've taken from this thread

---

I see them currently as the big brick cell phones of the 80's.

---

Excellent analogy. I remember those. People would walk around with those heavy bag phones everywhere as if they were so important they needed to have it … and let everyone know about it too.

Very similar mindset to some EV drivers today.

Has Nortex given up his smartphone, power tools, laptop, anything else with lithium powered?



Or is supporting the CCP acceptable when done in smaller quantities?