Teslag said:

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With the Model Y being the best selling car in the world, ICE or EV, I doubt Tesla is really sweating 15 ranking in a magazine.

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There are more Model Y than Accords or Camrys?

Edit: Did some research, Model Y is 4th behind RAV4 then Dodge, Ford and Chevy trucks at 1, 2, 3. (not in order)

California Bans
More like California will lose tax revenue by banning gas vehicles and having the end user complete the transaction in another state and then import it and register the vehicle in California. California is only banning the sale, not the ownership of gas vehicles. They're betting that the EV adoption will get far enough along that by the 2030's they can quietly repeal the ban as unnecessarily restrictive or unaccountable by 2035, or just outright forego the tax revenue on them as a 15 years ahead of time virtue signal about how they're ushering in the age of electric vehicles. It's politicking and it's non-sense. Absent an outright federal ban on the sale of gas vehicles you will be able to buy a gas vehicle, provided the manufacturers make them.

Incentives
And no, the incentives are not a financial mandate. If the incentives were a financial mandate the manufacturers would have made more efforts towards manufacturing EVs before they came with restrictions. Prior to the IRA the credit was $7,500, had no manufacturing requirements and no income limits other than a minimum tax liability of $7,500 with no carryover (i.e. far more permissive than the current implementation). Even Tesla will be losing half of the EV credit on the RWD Model 3 in 2024. The only manufacturers that made any significant sales prior to the IRA other than Tesla were Nissan (Leaf, pure commuter car) and GM (Bolt).

PHEV and Gas
The IRA also provides the same credit, with easier to meet standards (because the battery is so much smaller), for PHEV vehicles. All they have to have is manufacturing in NA, a battery of at least 7 kWh, and the same proportion of battery materials made from a country that the U.S. has preferred trading partnerships with. If anything gas hybrids are advantaged over EVs, rather than the opposite.

Gas, in some form, will survive for a long time and even the fuel efficiency standards aren't going to kill them. EVs substantially exceed the fuel efficiency standards, PHEVs exceed the fuel efficiency standards, and gas vehicles do not, but it is a fleet wide standard and companies that do not meet the standard are capable of buying credits from companies who exceed them.

MaroonStain said:

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Teslag said:

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With the Model Y being the best selling car in the world, ICE or EV, I doubt Tesla is really sweating 15 ranking in a magazine.

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There are more Model Y than Accords or Camrys?

Edit: Did some research, Model Y is 4th behind RAV4 then Dodge, Ford and Chevy trucks at 1, 2, 3. (not in order)

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Those are domestic rankings, not world rankings and the Model Y is likely to surpass the RAV and Ram by the end of this year domestically (i.e end up 3rd, or very close to it). Model Y had production truncation in the U.S. for Q3 for factory upgrades.

The U.S. is the only major market that produces full-size SUVs and Trucks at the scale we do. The best selling vehicle in the world prior to the Model Y surpassing it was the Corolla. It's running mid teens domestically.

The manufactures need to start litigating and lobbying against these mandates and CAFE standards like gun companies and gun rights organizations do against 2nd amendment infringements.

It is going to be really boring when every sports car drives almost exactly the same and has zero character in their power train. The 2035 standards only leave room for hybrid drivetrains with hamster wheel ICE engines. They'll be the furthest thing from enjoyable to drive you can possibly imagine. Every performance oriented vehicle will be silent, transmission less, and have flat line for a torque curve. Fast but in the least exhilarating way possible.

Kansas Kid said:

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I still don't view Tesla's as luxury cars (or the vast majority of the current EVs) but I also don't think Cadillacs and low end BMWs and Audis are either.

Just because a magazine classifies something as a luxury car doesn't automatically make it a luxury car IMO. It is like the rental car companies where they may say it is a full size car but good luck getting four adults and luggage into the car.

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Conversely, just because you think they're not, doesn't mean they aren't.

cecil77 said:

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Kansas Kid said:

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I still don't view Tesla's as luxury cars (or the vast majority of the current EVs) but I also don't think Cadillacs and low end BMWs and Audis are either.

Just because a magazine classifies something as a luxury car doesn't automatically make it a luxury car IMO. It is like the rental car companies where they may say it is a full size car but good luck getting four adults and luggage into the car.

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Conversely, just because you think they're not, doesn't mean they aren't.

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Agreed.

cecil77 said:

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Kansas Kid said:

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I still don't view Tesla's as luxury cars (or the vast majority of the current EVs) but I also don't think Cadillacs and low end BMWs and Audis are either.

Just because a magazine classifies something as a luxury car doesn't automatically make it a luxury car IMO. It is like the rental car companies where they may say it is a full size car but good luck getting four adults and luggage into the car.

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Conversely, just because you think they're not, doesn't mean they aren't.

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Let's be real here. Cadillacs and Lincoln's are just another Chevy/Ford trim level

aggieforester05 said:

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The manufactures need to start litigating and lobbying against these mandates and CAFE standards like gun companies and gun rights organizations do against 2nd amendment infringements.

It is going to be really boring when every sports car drives almost exactly the same and has zero character in their power train. The 2035 standards only leave room for hybrid drivetrains with hamster wheel ICE engines. They'll be the furthest thing from enjoyable to drive you can possibly imagine. Every performance oriented vehicle will be silent, transmission less, and have flat line for a torque curve. Fast but in the least exhilarating way possible.

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Well, the highest performance car in the world right now is a hybrid made by an energy drink company.

Teslag said:

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aggieforester05 said:

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The manufactures need to start litigating and lobbying against these mandates and CAFE standards like gun companies and gun rights organizations do against 2nd amendment infringements.

It is going to be really boring when every sports car drives almost exactly the same and has zero character in their power train. The 2035 standards only leave room for hybrid drivetrains with hamster wheel ICE engines. They'll be the furthest thing from enjoyable to drive you can possibly imagine. Every performance oriented vehicle will be silent, transmission less, and have flat line for a torque curve. Fast but in the least exhilarating way possible.

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Well, the highest performance car in the world right now is a hybrid made by an energy drink company.

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Does it get 58 mpg? I'm not opposed to hybrid sports cars, but anything more powerful than a prius is going to bring down the fleet average.


For example if they're going to replace large displacement V8s in muscle cars. Instead of downsizing to a l**** and buzzy turbo 6 or turbo 4 or worse, all electric, go with a 4.0L V8 mated to an electric motor and real transmission that will boost the low end torque and high rpm power to levels more in line with the engine it's replacing. It should be able to cruise in all electric mode around town.
They're going to get significantly better fuel economy without ruining the character of the car. It isn't going to be the ridiculous 58 mpg fleet average required by 2032. That needs to be fought by the auto industry and associations.

I have a hybrid highlander, hampster wheel engine, really slow and still 23 mpg lower than the 2032 standards. There's not going to be any ICE cars worth driving at that standard.

"Luxury" IS a trim level, along w/ suspension upgrades.

Heck a Rolls Royce is just a trim level on a BMW.

All manufacturers share platforms.

More Democrats in love with CCP-sourced BEV's and their batteries. (Note, this one is a hybrid but they basically will only sell BEV's here.)

Newsom pimps CCP EV:

.@GavinNewsom gets behind the wheel of @BYDCompany’s newest vehicle & checks out the self turning mode.

It’s a hybrid, that drives itself and can also float on water.

Price starts at $160,000. Available now in China. They hope to bring them to America soon. @FOXLA pic.twitter.com/aOKXzaGLcz

— Elex Michaelson (@Elex_Michaelson) October 24, 2023

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Great! With a $3,200 down payment and a new car loan at, say, 6.34 percent, your payment will be only $3200 - and that's without California sales tax. Then we have registration fees, some of which vary by county and city in the state. If you live in Santa Monica, you can expect to pay $17,357 in registration fees on top of that purchase price. THEN, figure out what you're going to pay to charge it - when there aren't rolling blackouts.

If you're still excited about this vehicle, perhaps because you believe Gavin's law about outlawing gas-powered vehicles sometime in the near future in California will actually come to pass, you then have to hope that it won't stall out when going uphill. That's the problem BYD's electric buses have historically had, including fleets provided to various California agencies. From a May 2018 Los Angeles Times investigative report:

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When Chinese battery maker BYD Ltd. approached Southern California officials in 2008 touting ambitious plans to build electric cars, local politicians jumped at the promise of thousands of jobs and cleaner air.

In the nine years since, agencies have awarded BYD grants, subsidies and public contracts worth more than $330 million for its battery-powered buses, forklifts and trucks. The company is positioned to be a prime supplier of electric buses to the nation's second-largest system, as Los Angeles' Metro sets a 12-year deadline to abandon fossil fuels.

But largely unbeknownst to the public, BYD's electric buses are contending with a record of poor performance and mechanical problems.

A Times investigation found its buses stalled on hills, required service calls much more frequently than older buses and had unpredictable driving ranges below advertised distances, which were impaired by the heat, the cold or the way drivers braked.

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There are again very real political reasons to be opposed to the political push toward BEV's, related to environmental, geopolitics, and human impacts, as well as costs/risks.

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In fact, Congress was so concerned about BYD's ties to the CCP that a bipartisan bill banning the use of federal funds to purchase BYD's electric buses was passed that went into effect at the end of 2021.

And, links to forced labor? Newsom definitely won't ask his gracious hosts in Shenzhen about that. That might be xenophobic and disrespectful of their culture.

Newsom still claims that he is not contemplating a POTUS run, and says his office has coordinated with the Biden administration on this visit. However, he felt he needed to make a big point to Chinese officials by saying that no matter what happens on a federal level, Beijing's always got a friend in him.

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More at the link…

DOJ investigating inflated mileage claims.

https://www.cnbc.com/amp/2023/10/23/tesla-discloses-doj-probes-over-vehicle-range-personal-benefits-more.html

But fanbois on here assured us that was a feature, not a bug! And it will find those recharging stations for you.

"The DoJ is wholly corrupt and should be dismantled! Except for electric vehicle ranges, they're totally above board there."

techno-ag said:

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DOJ investigating inflated mileage claims.

https://www.cnbc.com/amp/2023/10/23/tesla-discloses-doj-probes-over-vehicle-range-personal-benefits-more.html

But fanbois on here assured us that was a feature, not a bug! And it will find those recharging stations for you.

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Biden Administration fans

Teslag said:

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techno-ag said:

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DOJ investigating inflated mileage claims.

https://www.cnbc.com/amp/2023/10/23/tesla-discloses-doj-probes-over-vehicle-range-personal-benefits-more.html

But fanbois on here assured us that was a feature, not a bug! And it will find those recharging stations for you.

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Biden Administration fans

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What a stupid thing for the DOJ to waste their time on when our government is full of corrupt politicians that do whatever they want with impunity.

My IDGAF meter here is about the same as it was with the VW emissions scandal.

aggieforester05 said:

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Teslag said:

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techno-ag said:

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DOJ investigating inflated mileage claims.

https://www.cnbc.com/amp/2023/10/23/tesla-discloses-doj-probes-over-vehicle-range-personal-benefits-more.html

But fanbois on here assured us that was a feature, not a bug! And it will find those recharging stations for you.

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Biden Administration fans

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What a stupid thing for the DOJ to waste their time on when our government is full of corrupt politicians that do whatever they want with impunity.

My IDGAF meter here is about the same as it was with the VW emissions scandal.

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It's the DoJ going after Elon Musk primarily, for non-UAW labor and his apostasy over government censorship/twitter. No one is safe, ultimately, under communism, as Mao's wife herself learned. Musk and Tesla have tried their best to align with the CCP but have failed to toe the line in critical areas so he is a big target to the AOC wing.

nortex97 said:

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aggieforester05 said:

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Teslag said:

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techno-ag said:

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DOJ investigating inflated mileage claims.

https://www.cnbc.com/amp/2023/10/23/tesla-discloses-doj-probes-over-vehicle-range-personal-benefits-more.html

But fanbois on here assured us that was a feature, not a bug! And it will find those recharging stations for you.

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Biden Administration fans

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What a stupid thing for the DOJ to waste their time on when our government is full of corrupt politicians that do whatever they want with impunity.

My IDGAF meter here is about the same as it was with the VW emissions scandal.

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It's the DoJ going after Elon Musk primarily, for non-UAW labor and his apostasy over government censorship/twitter. No one is safe, ultimately, under communism, as Mao's wife herself learned. Musk and Tesla have tried their best to align with the CCP but have failed to toe the line in critical areas so he is a big target to the AOC wing.

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Throwing **** against the wall like they did with Trump. Eventually they'll figure out some way to take his actions and rhetoric out of context and indict him in an area with a hostile jury pool. Banana Republic stuff

nortex97 said:

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aggieforester05 said:

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Teslag said:

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techno-ag said:

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DOJ investigating inflated mileage claims.

https://www.cnbc.com/amp/2023/10/23/tesla-discloses-doj-probes-over-vehicle-range-personal-benefits-more.html

But fanbois on here assured us that was a feature, not a bug! And it will find those recharging stations for you.

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Biden Administration fans

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What a stupid thing for the DOJ to waste their time on when our government is full of corrupt politicians that do whatever they want with impunity.

My IDGAF meter here is about the same as it was with the VW emissions scandal.

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It's the DoJ going after Elon Musk primarily, for non-UAW labor and his apostasy over government censorship/twitter. No one is safe, ultimately, under communism, as Mao's wife herself learned. Musk and Tesla have tried their best to align with the CCP but have failed to toe the line in critical areas so he is a big target to the AOC wing.

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Between your posts on Israel-Gaza and this one I find myself pretty much in 100% agreement with you lately

Unacceptable. I will now reconsider some life decisions.

Teslag said:

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nortex97 said:

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aggieforester05 said:

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Teslag said:

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techno-ag said:

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DOJ investigating inflated mileage claims.

https://www.cnbc.com/amp/2023/10/23/tesla-discloses-doj-probes-over-vehicle-range-personal-benefits-more.html

But fanbois on here assured us that was a feature, not a bug! And it will find those recharging stations for you.

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Biden Administration fans

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What a stupid thing for the DOJ to waste their time on when our government is full of corrupt politicians that do whatever they want with impunity.

My IDGAF meter here is about the same as it was with the VW emissions scandal.

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It's the DoJ going after Elon Musk primarily, for non-UAW labor and his apostasy over government censorship/twitter. No one is safe, ultimately, under communism, as Mao's wife herself learned. Musk and Tesla have tried their best to align with the CCP but have failed to toe the line in critical areas so he is a big target to the AOC wing.

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Between your posts on Israel-Gaza and this one I find myself pretty much in 100% agreement with you lately

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The end times are coming. Cats and dogs sleeping together. Mass hysteria.

Here is a little trick for ICE and EV vehicles if you want to get the advertised range, slow down to the speed used for the EPA test and drive in ideal weather conditions.

Damn velocity squared gets you every time.

tk for tu juan said:

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Here is a little trick for ICE and EV vehicles if you want to get the advertised range, slow down to the speed used for the EPA test and drive in ideal weather conditions.

Damn velocity squared gets you every time.

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It also helps to have a tail wind and go downhill.

Fascinating observation by Tony Seba.

No need to watch the entire 1hr3m video, but the first 15 to 20 minutes is worth it.

Tony Seba: Clean Disruption - Energy & Transportation - YouTube

BEV are in your future, like it or not.

I'm also convinced that the Lilium Electric Jet will be doing this to eVTOL, there are plenty of eVTOL, but I think these guys have the best idea.

While I think EVs are here to stay, there are still a number of cases where ICE are better. I especially laugh at the idea of electric aircraft in the next 20-30 years, if ever. That is where the energy storage/kg becomes a massive limitation.

tk for tu juan said:

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Here is a little trick for ICE and EV vehicles if you want to get the advertised range, slow down to the speed used for the EPA test and drive in ideal weather conditions.

Damn velocity squared gets you every time.

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I was wondering why my gas mileage sucked driving 85 MPH.

There are a couple if not a few eVTOL in production now, not prototypes... they'll be flying in the next five years.

Lilium just did a deal with Dallas based (IIRC) EMCJET for five of them. Apparently, Texas will be the debut place for the new mobility, these guys are Germans, BTW, but they're seeking American AND European certification.

VitruvianAg said:

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There are a couple if not a few eVTOL in production now, not prototypes... they'll be flying in the next five years.

Lilium just did a deal with Dallas based (IIRC) EMCJET for five of them. Apparently, Texas will be the debut place for the new mobility, these guys are Germans, BTW, but they're seeking American AND European certification.

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And their range is 100-150miles and are listed at 10mm. That is a glorified drone/helicopter that is unbelievably expensive. Now dream up one that can go 1000mph or more to be a practical plane.

I have seen a few test flights of the Bell Nexus 6HX, crazy quiet and mainly for short trips in cities. Think the first time I saw one was around 2016-2017 yet here we are over 6 years later and I don't think any have been shipped to Uber yet

Bubblez said:

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tk for tu juan said:

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Here is a little trick for ICE and EV vehicles if you want to get the advertised range, slow down to the speed used for the EPA test and drive in ideal weather conditions.

Damn velocity squared gets you every time.

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I was wondering why my gas mileage sucked driving 85 MPH.

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In my rav4 mileage starts sucking over 70
In My V6 Blazer the gas mileage does not drop off precipitously at 80+ but in town mileage is not great

Certification is a big challenge. Leehamnews.com has had a decent running series on it, if interested. The EU though is still dumping piles of cash into this stuff.

Kansas Kid said:

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VitruvianAg said:

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There are a couple if not a few eVTOL in production now, not prototypes... they'll be flying in the next five years.

Lilium just did a deal with Dallas based (IIRC) EMCJET for five of them. Apparently, Texas will be the debut place for the new mobility, these guys are Germans, BTW, but they're seeking American AND European certification.

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And their range is 100-150miles and are listed at 10mm. That is a glorified drone/helicopter that is unbelievably expensive. Now dream up one that can go 1000mph or more to be a practical plane.

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Yes, that's correct, It's an Urban Mobility Vehicle, not meant to be long distance or even faster than 150mph. Much quieter than helicopter (and safer due to much lower complexity and greater redundancy [distributed propulsion]) meant for short hops from one part of a metropolitan are to another or from one metropolis to another. Going from DC to Baltimore or Richmond or Philadelphia in one of these is what it's meant for and a 20min charge. They are supposed to have up to 21 passengers, the smaller ones for personal transportation.

They are doing the same thing Tesla did but opposite, the initial high-cost product is as a fleet of the larger 21 passenger capacity vehicles for a larger network with later production for the personal vehicle once production costs are reduced. I'd certainly love to have one, I've been in all manner of Cessna and other small airplanes, even flown them, they don't do much for me...a bit boring.

Bell Textron has bigger fish to fry...

You know, Military Industrial Complex and all...

jt2hunt said:

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My residential charging costs don't costs me anywhere close to those first two bars, so this is already a lie. After that, why would I care about the other bars?

"But I like my free stuff and it is so high tech and driving it shows how smart I am, plus it is saving the world."