Now check where teslas lithium from Australia is refined. And all the other precious metals. You're getting closer.

nortex97 said:

---

Manhattan said:

---

And no Model Y sold in the US has a Chinese made battery.

The RWD Model 3 has a Chinese made battery, but you can get one of those for $36,220 + delivery, tt&l so who cares where the battery is made.

---

Every battery in every single ev sold contains a multitude of rare and precious metals controlled by and processed by the ccp. In quantities an order of magnitude greater than a phone.

The category confusion some have about that is akin to equating a pimple to skin cancer.

---

At least get the part of the vehicle correctly, the rare earth metals are used in the motors not the batteries. Once again, copper, cobalt and lithium are not rare earth metals.

https://electrek.co/2023/03/01/tesla-is-going-back-to-ev-motors-with-no-rare-earth-elements/#:~:text=The%20rare%20earth%20elements%20in,as%20additives%20in%20Neodymium%20magnets.

Now go look at where the PGMs are produced that are needed for ICEs. Can you say hello Putin and South Africa which is now essentially communist? In other words, there are no cars that don't rely on metals produced by countries that are unfriendly to the US.

TX AG 88 said:

---

Quote:

---

The suggestion that we can demand continuance of oil consumption for transportation is non-sense.

---

The suggestion that you can tell "us" what we can or can't demand (with our patronage and dollars) is tyranny.

---

That wasn't a dictation, it was a statement of what the market forces are going to do. EVs are on a convergence with ICE vehicles by maintaining/reducing component costs while ICE increases in price. They are unlikely to end at that convergence point. Even absent CAFE standards EVs would outcompete ICE as the reduction in efficiency requirements only worsens the financial equation for ICE.

If you don't believe me, realize that every model Tesla is roughly at or below their introductory price, regardless of when it was introduced. Not adjusted for inflation. Model S introduced in 2012 is now cheaper than the comparable (but much better) modern Model S. Inflation since 2012 is 35%. Autos have seen prices rise by >50%. Every Model Tesla has also seen their range increase over that time.

You can call that tyranny, but you'll have to register with the communist party.

Again, it's the mandates. Let the market do what it will do. The mandates are absolutely tyranny..

It's not just mandates, though, it's all the other bits and pieces of the shoving-this-down-our-throats CCP garbage:

Biden's clean energy czar John Podesta said Chinese companies will be 'big players' in future US energy production & EV manufacturing, nothing Chinese firms would be able to take advantage of Biden's Inflation Reduction Act & Chips & Science Act.https://t.co/CADO1yELDu

— Ben Tallmadge (@BenTallmadge01) September 19, 2023

cecil77 said:

---

Again, it's the mandates. Let the market do what it will do. The mandates are absolutely tyranny..

---

Look at the post below yours. It's not just the mandates. It's people with oil and gas ties sensing the gravy train is about to come to an end.

Teslag said:

---

cecil77 said:

---

Again, it's the mandates. Let the market do what it will do. The mandates are absolutely tyranny..

---

Look at the post below yours. It's not just the mandates. It's people with oil and gas ties sensing the gravy train is about to come to an end.

---

Which is causing artificial and premature increases in oil prices…by design?

EV's are terrific for oil and gas interests. No idea why people would even posit otherwise.

A price spike in oil/gas has long been seen as a useful lever to push folks to them faster. Drilling limits, Ukraine, BRICS (production cuts), currency problems, stagflation, 50 MPG Cafe requirements, all of it is part of the effort to make ICE vehicles 'less attractive' vs. the 'new' BEV options.

Yes, the Model Y is the most popular car in America because consumers want them due to massive conspiracy

Teslag said:

---

Yes, the Model Y is the most popular car in America because consumers want them due to massive conspiracy

---

It appears quite a few consumers are making decisions that goes against some people's own political wishes and they are now left with crackpot conspiracy theories to try to explain away those decisions rather than admit, yeah, there is some significant public demand for EVs.

Bubblez said:

---

Teslag said:

---

Yes, the Model Y is the most popular car in America because consumers want them due to massive conspiracy

---

It appears quite a few consumers are making decisions that goes against some people's own political wishes and they are now left with crackpot conspiracy theories to try to explain away those decisions rather than admit, yeah, there is some significant public demand for EVs.

---

Was Newsweek part of the conspiracy back in 2008 when they pointed out why the trade offs to make a 50 mpg Focus would make it a $50K car?

The Focus is dead here now, and Biden just mandated 50 MPG CAFE standards coming up. Meanwhile, Ford is losing billions on EV's. Weird conspiracy.

Teslag said:

---

cecil77 said:

---

Again, it's the mandates. Let the market do what it will do. The mandates are absolutely tyranny..

---

Look at the post below yours. It's not just the mandates. It's people with oil and gas ties sensing the gravy train is about to come to an end.

---

Electric cars are riddled with hydrocarbon based materials. They run on electricity generated by hydrocarbons as well. Electric cars won't be the end of oil.

nortex97 said:

---

Bubblez said:

---

Teslag said:

---

Yes, the Model Y is the most popular car in America because consumers want them due to massive conspiracy

---

It appears quite a few consumers are making decisions that goes against some people's own political wishes and they are now left with crackpot conspiracy theories to try to explain away those decisions rather than admit, yeah, there is some significant public demand for EVs.

---

Was Newsweek part of the conspiracy back in 2008 when they pointed out why the trade offs to make a 50 mpg Focus would make it a $50K car?

The Focus is dead here now, and Biden just mandated 50 MPG CAFE standards coming up. Meanwhile, Ford is losing billions on EV's. Weird conspiracy.

---

What a pitiful attempt at an ad hom

"Yeah man these ICE loving yokels believe in conspiracy theories like cause and effect"

In this entire thread, has anyone figured out where all the electricity to charge these vehicles is going to come from?

agracer said:

---

In this entire thread, has anyone figured out where all the electricity to charge these vehicles is going to come from?

---

techno-ag said:

---

agracer said:

---

In this entire thread, has anyone figured out where all the electricity to charge these vehicles is going to come from?

---

---

the charger plug, duh.

agracer said:

---

In this entire thread, has anyone figured out where all the electricity to charge these vehicles is going to come from?

---

Well…duh. Unicorn farts and fairy dust!

agracer said:

---

In this entire thread, has anyone figured out where all the electricity to charge these vehicles is going to come from?

---

These already enough slack in the grid to charge a huge number of cars at night even accounting for no solar at night….

agracer said:

---

In this entire thread, has anyone figured out where all the electricity to charge these vehicles is going to come from?

---

Electricity demand doubled from 1975 to 2000 and I don't recall any mass concerns. I believe a lot of this was the rise of computers and Universal A/C both of which have demand that peaks during the day. Assuming the NIMBY folks don't prevent new capacity from coming on (a not insignificant concern), the utilities are good at adding capacity as needed. Even CA had overcome most of their issues on electricity shortage from the early 2000s. Funny how the free market works.

Kansas Kid said:

---

agracer said:

---

In this entire thread, has anyone figured out where all the electricity to charge these vehicles is going to come from?

---

Electricity demand doubled from 1975 to 2000 and I don't recall any mass concerns. I believe a lot of this was the rise of computers and Universal A/C both of which have demand that peaks during the day. Assuming the NIMBY folks don't prevent new capacity from coming on (a not insignificant concern), the utilities are good at adding capacity as needed. Even CA had overcome most of their issues on electricity shortage from the early 2000s. Funny how the free market works.

---

Almost all of that added capacity, especially that added at night, will come from petroleum (natural gas) powered generation. There is nothing anti-oil and gas about BEV's.

There is also a massive 'last mile' infrastructure upgrade in distribution required for this transition, requiring a lot of energy to produce/install the copper etc.

nortex97 said:

---

Kansas Kid said:

---

agracer said:

---

In this entire thread, has anyone figured out where all the electricity to charge these vehicles is going to come from?

---

Electricity demand doubled from 1975 to 2000 and I don't recall any mass concerns. I believe a lot of this was the rise of computers and Universal A/C both of which have demand that peaks during the day. Assuming the NIMBY folks don't prevent new capacity from coming on (a not insignificant concern), the utilities are good at adding capacity as needed. Even CA had overcome most of their issues on electricity shortage from the early 2000s. Funny how the free market works.

---

Almost all of that added capacity, especially that added at night, will come from petroleum (natural gas) powered generation. There is nothing anti-oil and gas about BEV's.

There is also a massive 'last mile' infrastructure upgrade in distribution required for this transition, requiring a lot of energy to produce/install the copper etc.

---

I have never said it wasn't going to be nat gas providing a lot of the marginal electricity and I don't know anyone on this board that has either. As for the grid, experts have been calling for a massive investment in it for a few decades.

Maybe you will eventually get it that the people on this board don't think of EVs as saving the planet although there are a few benefits. The electricity cycle is more energy efficient so they use fewer total BTUs in producing, transmitting and consumption but that isn't going to make any difference other than in people's wallets. As we showed you with the water usage for fracing and ethanol production, they use less water over their life cycle than ICE vehicles and you seemed very concerned about water. As for rare earth metals, now that you understand those are in the motors and not the batteries, you can learn that Tesla has already developed their next generation power train to not use them and other car companies are followings suit. As for cobalt, batteries have been developed that don't use that metal either so you can eventually stop worrying about child labor in Congo as it relates to EVs. ICE vehicles will still need it for our refineries where it is a key raw material for hydro treating catalyst. I still wouldn't buy an EV for those reasons because I don't care.

Then again, you don't care to listen or hear any other opinion because you hate the mandates which almost everyone on this board does as well. Based on your comments, you haven't spent any real time in an EV. For those people that have, they really like them and almost all would buy another. They buy them because of either performance, cool technology, ability to charge at home while sleeping instead of going to a gas station, lower maintenance, because they like the look, etc. The same EV buyers also see the limitations and also have an ICE as a second vehicle.

Nice word wall, haha.

Didn't read it all as I'm driving but electricity is a terrible way to store energy fyi.

I will never buy an ev.

Just as an aside, does anyone on this thread really spend so much time filling up with fuel that it's a noticeable amount of time at all? I just don't think time spent refueling is a thing at all. And honestly, cost savings on fuel is not that big a deal either. How many of you even notice the price when refueling? I don't, really.

And it's a paradox, the EV fans tout less time refueling, the ICE fans tout less time refueling.

I usually use that time to run in and grab some snacks and drinks for the week. No big deal unless I'm running late and out of gas, which is rare.

cecil77 said:

---

Just as an aside, does anyone on this thread really spend so much time filling up with fuel that it's a noticeable amount of time at all? I just don't think time spent refueling is a thing at all. And honestly, cost savings on fuel is not that big a deal either. How many of you even notice the price when refueling? I don't, really.

And it's a paradox, the EV fans tout less time refueling, the ICE fans tout less time refueling.

---

Both are true. For around town driving, EVs are a lot less time. For long distance trip, EVs take a lot longer. As for the costs, I see a lot of people including myself complaining about the cost of gasoline. The savings are around $1,200-1,500/yr for an EV so not earth shattering.

Kansas Kid said:

---

nortex97 said:

---

Kansas Kid said:

---

agracer said:

---

In this entire thread, has anyone figured out where all the electricity to charge these vehicles is going to come from?

---

Electricity demand doubled from 1975 to 2000 and I don't recall any mass concerns. I believe a lot of this was the rise of computers and Universal A/C both of which have demand that peaks during the day. Assuming the NIMBY folks don't prevent new capacity from coming on (a not insignificant concern), the utilities are good at adding capacity as needed. Even CA had overcome most of their issues on electricity shortage from the early 2000s. Funny how the free market works.

---

Almost all of that added capacity, especially that added at night, will come from petroleum (natural gas) powered generation. There is nothing anti-oil and gas about BEV's.

There is also a massive 'last mile' infrastructure upgrade in distribution required for this transition, requiring a lot of energy to produce/install the copper etc.

---

I have never said it wasn't going to be nat gas providing a lot of the marginal electricity and I don't know anyone on this board that has either. As for the grid, experts have been calling for a massive investment in it for a few decades.


Then again, you don't care to listen or hear any other opinion because you hate the mandates which almost everyone on this board does as well. Based on your comments, you haven't spent any real time in an EV. For those people that have, they really like them and almost all would buy another. They buy them because of either performance, cool technology, ability to charge at home while sleeping instead of going to a gas station, lower maintenance, because they like the look, etc. The same EV buyers also see the limitations and also have an ICE as a second vehicle.

---

You may not be saying it, but those forcing the mandates on us are insisting wind and solar are going to power our future, which is a lot of the same unicorn farts and rainbows mentioned earlier. Neither of which can exist without O&G. And there are plenty of posters on this board who are preaching the same use of solar and wind and batteries to power our future.

Let's also not forget the insistence on "carbon neutrality" which is going to add ever more load to the grid that doesn't have the capacity for that additional load.

And those experts have been calling for grid improvement for years, but it's really not happening fast enough to meet the fantasy land demands of those same mandates.

agracer said:

---

Kansas Kid said:

---

nortex97 said:

---

Kansas Kid said:

---

agracer said:

---

In this entire thread, has anyone figured out where all the electricity to charge these vehicles is going to come from?

---

Electricity demand doubled from 1975 to 2000 and I don't recall any mass concerns. I believe a lot of this was the rise of computers and Universal A/C both of which have demand that peaks during the day. Assuming the NIMBY folks don't prevent new capacity from coming on (a not insignificant concern), the utilities are good at adding capacity as needed. Even CA had overcome most of their issues on electricity shortage from the early 2000s. Funny how the free market works.

---

Almost all of that added capacity, especially that added at night, will come from petroleum (natural gas) powered generation. There is nothing anti-oil and gas about BEV's.

There is also a massive 'last mile' infrastructure upgrade in distribution required for this transition, requiring a lot of energy to produce/install the copper etc.

---

I have never said it wasn't going to be nat gas providing a lot of the marginal electricity and I don't know anyone on this board that has either. As for the grid, experts have been calling for a massive investment in it for a few decades.


Then again, you don't care to listen or hear any other opinion because you hate the mandates which almost everyone on this board does as well. Based on your comments, you haven't spent any real time in an EV. For those people that have, they really like them and almost all would buy another. They buy them because of either performance, cool technology, ability to charge at home while sleeping instead of going to a gas station, lower maintenance, because they like the look, etc. The same EV buyers also see the limitations and also have an ICE as a second vehicle.

---

You may not be saying it, but those forcing the mandates on us are insisting wind and solar are going to power our future, which is a lot of the same unicorn farts and rainbows mentioned earlier. Neither of which can exist without O&G. And there are plenty of posters on this board who are preaching the same use of solar and wind and batteries to power our future.

Let's also not forget the insistence on "carbon neutrality" which is going to add ever more load to the grid that doesn't have the capacity for that additional load.

And those experts have been calling for grid improvement for years, but it's really not happening fast enough to meet the fantasy land demands of those same mandates.

---

The Dems forcing these mandates are living in fantasy land. There is no reasonable way to go full electric in their timeframe even if everyone wanted to buy EVs. There isn't enough metal production to meet the needs (lithium, copper, etc) and this idea of carbon neutral sounds great to the environmentalists but doesn't work in the real world. If the environmentalists really want a massively reduced carbon footprint, they should be going all in on nukes but they hate those too.

nortex97 said:

---

Nice word wall, haha.

Didn't read it all as I'm driving but electricity is a terrible way to store energy fyi.

I will never buy an ev.

---

Remember, this poster is here for honest discussion, doesn't troll, and always takes the high road.

Teslag said:

---

nortex97 said:

---

Nice word wall, haha.

Didn't read it all as I'm driving but electricity is a terrible way to store energy fyi.

I will never buy an ev.

---

Redeemer, this poster is here for honest discussion, doesn't troll, and always takes the high road.

---

Looks like the UK is pushing back their full EV transition to 2035, though still expects the vast majority of vehicles sold in 2030 to be EVs.

ChemAg15 said:

---

Teslag said:

---

nortex97 said:

---

Nice word wall, haha.

Didn't read it all as I'm driving but electricity is a terrible way to store energy fyi.

I will never buy an ev.

---

Redeemer, this poster is here for honest discussion, doesn't troll, and always takes the high road.

---

---

Haha pfizer ag has an opinion.

Bubblez said:

---

Looks like the UK is pushing back their full EV transition to 2035, though still expects the vast majority of vehicles sold in 2030 to be EVs.

---

The UK is a relatively small island with limited natural resources and a very different culture/economy than the US.

Forcing rural Americans into EVs via mandates is a tyrannical and ****ty thing to do by coastal liberals that live and work in dense population centers. These people are completely oblivious to the lifestyle and needs of people that don't live the same lifestyle they do.

That's what happens when you're completely brainwashed by progressive propaganda that use the climate change boogeyman to fear monger you into voting for a party of degenerate sociopaths that only care about enriching themselves and their wealthy donors via green energy scams.

There's nothing wrong with offering EV options, but mandating unrealistic CAFE standards in a blatant attempt to make ICE vehicle production unsustainable is ethically wrong and an extremely poor economic decision.

Amen

I've been told Evs being jammed at us has nothing to do with the environment and resources. They are just so great and new tech idiots like me have to be forced to comply.

aggieforester05 said:

---

Bubblez said:

---

Looks like the UK is pushing back their full EV transition to 2035, though still expects the vast majority of vehicles sold in 2030 to be EVs.

---

The UK is a relatively small island with limited natural resources and a very different culture/economy than the US.

Forcing rural Americans into EVs via mandates is a tyrannical and ****ty thing to do by coastal liberals that live and work in dense population centers. These people are completely oblivious to the lifestyle and needs of people that don't live the same lifestyle they do.

That's what happens when you're completely brainwashed by progressive propaganda that use the climate change boogeyman to fear monger you into voting for a party of degenerate sociopaths that only care about enriching themselves and their wealthy donors via green energy scams.

There's nothing wrong with offering EV options, but mandating unrealistic CAFE standards in a blatant attempt to make ICE vehicle production unsustainable is ethically wrong and an extremely poor economic decision.

---

The automakers thought the CAFE standards of the 1980's were completely unrealistic, but look where we are now. Far better off. Imagine the price of oil if we still had the 1980's fuel economy standards.