All the EVs are under the SUVs, they caused the collapse and then tried to hide.

nortex97 said:

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Buddy of mine took this in central texas today:

Quote:

---

The virtue signaling is 100 percent with this Tesla hippie. AZ plates "TTYLGAS". I hate Tesla and BMW drivers so much. Does hippie from AZ know tires are made from petroleum? Batteries mines by enslaved kids?

---

I think this is how a lot of us view these things, especially with silly vanity plates as they…disproportionately have.

---

You'd have to be crazy to own an electric vehicle in AZ. I've lived here 20 years and never had a battery in a vehicle last more than 2 years. Most of them a little less than 2 years. The heat here in Southern AZ just wrecks car batteries. Everyone I talk to has the same issue with batteries in cars out here...Can't imagine what the cost would be to replace the huge battery pack in one of the electric vehicles, and have to do it every 2 years at a minimum? Even if they put the highest quality batteries in them, I wouldn't bet on them lasting more than 3 Summers here..

Agreed. And again, all those rare earth metals are largely controlled/refined by China, politically speaking. As a patriotic American I don't want to turn over so much income/control to China for our personal transportation unless there are some great reasons to do so, which I am unaware of.

In fact, a paperwork error around a minor fender bender could get you precluded from charging one up even? That sounds convenient.

VW layoffs amid plummeting EV demand.

Ramdiesel said:

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nortex97 said:

---

Buddy of mine took this in central texas today:

Quote:

---

The virtue signaling is 100 percent with this Tesla hippie. AZ plates "TTYLGAS". I hate Tesla and BMW drivers so much. Does hippie from AZ know tires are made from petroleum? Batteries mines by enslaved kids?

---

I think this is how a lot of us view these things, especially with silly vanity plates as they…disproportionately have.

---

You'd have to be crazy to own an electric vehicle in AZ. I've lived here 20 years and never had a battery in a vehicle last more than 2 years. Most of them a little less than 2 years. The heat here in Southern AZ just wrecks car batteries. Everyone I talk to has the same issue with batteries in cars out here...Can't imagine what the cost would be to replace the huge battery pack in one of the electric vehicles, and have to do it every 2 years at a minimum? Even if they put the highest quality batteries in them, I wouldn't bet on them lasting more than 3 Summers here..

---

Don't know if you know, but, Tesla car batteries are continuously conditioned by the heat pump system.

So, it's not the same as your Toyota Tundra sitting on your driveway in 130 heat boiling your battery acid away...

nortex97 said:

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Agreed. And again, all those rare earth metals are largely controlled/refined by China, politically speaking. As a patriotic American I don't want to turn over so much income/control to China for our personal transportation unless there are some great reasons to do so, which I am unaware of.

In fact, a paperwork error around a minor fender bender could get you precluded from charging one up even? That sounds convenient.

VW layoffs amid plummeting EV demand.

---

Let me help you out, what you linked to had nothing to do with rare earth metals. The charts you used were copper, lithium, cobalt and nickel.

Rare earth metals are even more dominated by China today, 70%. The Us is number 2 in production and yes this is a serious issue for EVs and a number of other industries. ICE vehicles are more dependent on Russia as the largest producer of PGMs.
https://www.statista.com/statistics/270277/mining-of-rare-earths-by-country/

nortex97 said:

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Agreed. And again, all those rare earth metals are largely controlled/refined by China, politically speaking. As a patriotic American I don't want to turn over so much income/control to China for our personal transportation unless there are some great reasons to do so, which I am unaware of.

In fact, a paperwork error around a minor fender bender could get you precluded from charging one up even? That sounds convenient.

VW layoffs amid plummeting EV demand.

---

There are just so many problems related to EVs both from a practical standpoint and political reasons. I encourage everyone to hold off on buying these things. Your dollars, or the lack thereof, sends a strong message.

VitruvianAg said:

---

Ramdiesel said:

---

nortex97 said:

---

Buddy of mine took this in central texas today:

Quote:

---

The virtue signaling is 100 percent with this Tesla hippie. AZ plates "TTYLGAS". I hate Tesla and BMW drivers so much. Does hippie from AZ know tires are made from petroleum? Batteries mines by enslaved kids?

---

I think this is how a lot of us view these things, especially with silly vanity plates as they…disproportionately have.

---

You'd have to be crazy to own an electric vehicle in AZ. I've lived here 20 years and never had a battery in a vehicle last more than 2 years. Most of them a little less than 2 years. The heat here in Southern AZ just wrecks car batteries. Everyone I talk to has the same issue with batteries in cars out here...Can't imagine what the cost would be to replace the huge battery pack in one of the electric vehicles, and have to do it every 2 years at a minimum? Even if they put the highest quality batteries in them, I wouldn't bet on them lasting more than 3 Summers here..

---

Don't know if you know, but, Tesla car batteries are continuously conditioned by the heat pump system.

So, it's not the same as your Toyota Tundra sitting on your driveway in 130 heat boiling your battery acid away...

---

Yes this is both a feature and a glitch, alike, as it requires an active cooling system to condition/manage the battery including when sitting still/not being used. So in extreme hot/cold weather the batteries drain faster just to maintain a 'good' operating temperature. Further, this involves a lot of intricate cooling/electrical lines throughout the battery cells to try to keep an 'even' temperature but this itself is almost impossible to do, which is why it is common for certain cells/regions of the battery to degrade more quickly than others.

Now, they have a lot of very clever/good engineers who design these systems, but it remains true that it is fundamentally a very complex air conditioning/HVAC system which is so intertwined with the battery, this is why the labor/cost to replace individual cells or replace the whole battery is so high.

nortex97 said:

---

VitruvianAg said:

---

Ramdiesel said:

---

nortex97 said:

---

Buddy of mine took this in central texas today:

Quote:

---

The virtue signaling is 100 percent with this Tesla hippie. AZ plates "TTYLGAS". I hate Tesla and BMW drivers so much. Does hippie from AZ know tires are made from petroleum? Batteries mines by enslaved kids?

---

I think this is how a lot of us view these things, especially with silly vanity plates as they…disproportionately have.

---

You'd have to be crazy to own an electric vehicle in AZ. I've lived here 20 years and never had a battery in a vehicle last more than 2 years. Most of them a little less than 2 years. The heat here in Southern AZ just wrecks car batteries. Everyone I talk to has the same issue with batteries in cars out here...Can't imagine what the cost would be to replace the huge battery pack in one of the electric vehicles, and have to do it every 2 years at a minimum? Even if they put the highest quality batteries in them, I wouldn't bet on them lasting more than 3 Summers here..

---

Don't know if you know, but, Tesla car batteries are continuously conditioned by the heat pump system.

So, it's not the same as your Toyota Tundra sitting on your driveway in 130 heat boiling your battery acid away...

---

Yes this is both a feature and a glitch, alike, as it requires an active cooling system to condition/manage the battery including when sitting still/not being used. So in extreme hot/cold weather the batteries drain faster just to maintain a 'good' operating temperature. Further, this involves a lot of intricate cooling/electrical lines throughout the battery cells to try to keep an 'even' temperature but this itself is almost impossible to do, which is why it is common for certain cells/regions of the battery to degrade more quickly than others.

Now, they have a lot of very clever/good engineers who design these systems, but it remains true that it is fundamentally a very complex air conditioning/HVAC system which is so intertwined with the battery, this is why the labor/cost to replace individual cells or replace the whole battery is so high.

---

oh nice! so you DON'T have to worry about battery fires since Tesla actively manages the battery temps. man....and you did all that worrying and posting about battery fires for nothing

Kansas Kid said:

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nortex97 said:

---

Agreed. And again, all those rare earth metals are largely controlled/refined by China, politically speaking. As a patriotic American I don't want to turn over so much income/control to China for our personal transportation unless there are some great reasons to do so, which I am unaware of.

In fact, a paperwork error around a minor fender bender could get you precluded from charging one up even? That sounds convenient.

VW layoffs amid plummeting EV demand.

---

Let me help you out, what you linked to had nothing to do with rare earth metals. The charts you used were copper, lithium, cobalt and nickel.

Rare earth metals are even more dominated by China today, 70%. The Us is number 2 in production and yes this is a serious issue for EVs and a number of other industries. ICE vehicles are more dependent on Russia as the largest producer of PGMs.
https://www.statista.com/statistics/270277/mining-of-rare-earths-by-country/

---

Rare earth metals aren't as rare as one would think, it's the refining that is problematic in an efficient process, China doesn't care about efficiency same as the Soviets didn't care about good oilfield reservoir management. A common condition in command economies I suppose.

Besides, Tesla is eliminating REM for their new motors. Your cell phone, now, that's another problem.

nortex97 said:

---

VitruvianAg said:

---

Ramdiesel said:

---

nortex97 said:

---

Buddy of mine took this in central texas today:

Quote:

---

The virtue signaling is 100 percent with this Tesla hippie. AZ plates "TTYLGAS". I hate Tesla and BMW drivers so much. Does hippie from AZ know tires are made from petroleum? Batteries mines by enslaved kids?

---

I think this is how a lot of us view these things, especially with silly vanity plates as they…disproportionately have.

---

You'd have to be crazy to own an electric vehicle in AZ. I've lived here 20 years and never had a battery in a vehicle last more than 2 years. Most of them a little less than 2 years. The heat here in Southern AZ just wrecks car batteries. Everyone I talk to has the same issue with batteries in cars out here...Can't imagine what the cost would be to replace the huge battery pack in one of the electric vehicles, and have to do it every 2 years at a minimum? Even if they put the highest quality batteries in them, I wouldn't bet on them lasting more than 3 Summers here..

---

Don't know if you know, but, Tesla car batteries are continuously conditioned by the heat pump system.

So, it's not the same as your Toyota Tundra sitting on your driveway in 130 heat boiling your battery acid away...

---

Yes this is both a feature and a glitch, alike, as it requires an active cooling system to condition/manage the battery including when sitting still/not being used. So in extreme hot/cold weather the batteries drain faster just to maintain a 'good' operating temperature. Further, this involves a lot of intricate cooling/electrical lines throughout the battery cells to try to keep an 'even' temperature but this itself is almost impossible to do, which is why it is common for certain cells/regions of the battery to degrade more quickly than others.

Now, they have a lot of very clever/good engineers who design these systems, but it remains true that it is fundamentally a very complex air conditioning/HVAC system which is so intertwined with the battery, this is why the labor/cost to replace individual cells or replace the whole battery is so high.

---

Yes the octovalve thing is a marvel of technology.

None of the other OEM's can ever catch-up to Tesla, as I've said here before, Tesla has rocket scientist with AI designing their cars...the rest of the OEMs merely have automotive engineers. Ford, GM, et al will eventually have to get Tesla tech under licence to survive.

And plenty of millionaire line workers at Tesla, as opposed to UAW slugs at the legacies.

I love everything about my F-Type V8 S, I don't drive everyday and don't put much milage on it so I don't care about cost of gas, but when I do drive it it's in sport mode and I thrash it as much as I can on public roads with out being a nuisance. Turn off driver assist, open the exhaust restriction, let the tires protest just a tad and have the rear end get sideways and snap back...nothing more fun!

Right, but long term Tesla evaluation of their batteries are finding that degradation is favorably exceeding their life cycle predictions.

So it's not the problem you'd like to emphasize.

VitruvianAg said:

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Ramdiesel said:

---

nortex97 said:

---

Buddy of mine took this in central texas today:

Quote:

---

The virtue signaling is 100 percent with this Tesla hippie. AZ plates "TTYLGAS". I hate Tesla and BMW drivers so much. Does hippie from AZ know tires are made from petroleum? Batteries mines by enslaved kids?

---

I think this is how a lot of us view these things, especially with silly vanity plates as they…disproportionately have.

---

You'd have to be crazy to own an electric vehicle in AZ. I've lived here 20 years and never had a battery in a vehicle last more than 2 years. Most of them a little less than 2 years. The heat here in Southern AZ just wrecks car batteries. Everyone I talk to has the same issue with batteries in cars out here...Can't imagine what the cost would be to replace the huge battery pack in one of the electric vehicles, and have to do it every 2 years at a minimum? Even if they put the highest quality batteries in them, I wouldn't bet on them lasting more than 3 Summers here..

---

Don't know if you know, but, Tesla car batteries are continuously conditioned by the heat pump system.

So, it's not the same as your Toyota Tundra sitting on your driveway in 130 heat boiling your battery acid away...

---

I did not know that about Tesla, but it does make sense they would have to do something to increase the life expectancy of the batteries in extreme temps to make electric cars even somewhat feasible...

techno-ag said:

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nortex97 said:

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Agreed. And again, all those rare earth metals are largely controlled/refined by China, politically speaking. As a patriotic American I don't want to turn over so much income/control to China for our personal transportation unless there are some great reasons to do so, which I am unaware of.

In fact, a paperwork error around a minor fender bender could get you precluded from charging one up even? That sounds convenient.

VW layoffs amid plummeting EV demand.

---

There are just so many problems related to EVs both from a practical standpoint and political reasons. I encourage everyone to hold off on buying these things. Your dollars, or the lack thereof, sends a strong message.

---

This ignores the fact that they are good for a lot of people

Everything about the forced dependence on batteries is insane.

America has more than enough oil to be energy independent, yet for some reason our leaders demand that we depend on a resource we can’t produce, that doesn’t scale, and that communist China controls. https://t.co/r0yL662Dzv

— Sean Davis (@seanmdav) September 17, 2023

nortex97 said:

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Everything about the forced dependence on batteries is insane.

America has more than enough oil to be energy independent, yet for some reason our leaders demand that we depend on a resource we can’t produce, that doesn’t scale, and that communist China controls. https://t.co/r0yL662Dzv

— Sean Davis (@seanmdav) September 17, 2023

---

YAWN......and most of the worlds semiconductor chips come out of factory in Taiwan.....

most of the cobalt is mined in Africa. most of the world's lithium is mined in Australia. the largest company in lithium production is based in north carolina and yet refines the lithium in China. Tesla is building lithium refinery in Texas. Albermarle is building refineries in the US.......and so on.

"scary" tweets rarely tell the whole story...but confirmation bias and all that........

Tesla block woman from charging her car due to Carfax error and she can't get them to undo it.

https://www.ktre.com/2023/09/15/tesla-blocks-woman-charging-her-car/

"You will own nothing and like it". It's for her own good though. Yes, i know its for the supercharger stations, but it is yet another headache where other entities are controlling your car.

The newspaper got Tesla to unlock it

RoyVal said:

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nortex97 said:

---

Everything about the forced dependence on batteries is insane.

America has more than enough oil to be energy independent, yet for some reason our leaders demand that we depend on a resource we can’t produce, that doesn’t scale, and that communist China controls. https://t.co/r0yL662Dzv

— Sean Davis (@seanmdav) September 17, 2023

---

YAWN......and most of the worlds semiconductor chips come out of factory in Taiwan.....

most of the cobalt is mined in Africa. most of the world's lithium is mined in Australia. the largest company in lithium production is based in north carolina and yet refines the lithium in China. Tesla is building lithium refinery in Texas. Albermarle is building refineries in the US.......and so on.

"scary" tweets rarely tell the whole story...but confirmation bias and all that........

---

You're so smart. Let's put you in charge of our industrial preparedness! You're clearly an expert on single points of failure on a national scale, and there IS no analog to WWII German ball bearings in the digital age!!! Smug effer bias and all that...

The issue is really just that electric vehicles are on a cost reduction path and technological advancement path that suggests that it is going to be cheaper to buy, cheaper to own, with less inconveniences within the next 7 years. The suggestion that we can demand continuance of oil consumption for transportation is non-sense.

It's also not inherently true that China's dominance in refinement is going to persist as production expands. There are moves by countries that are rich in resources to also move towards refining locally rather than outsourcing to China. China is dominant in refining, they are not dominant in domestic resources and their current refining capacity is a fraction of future demand.

hph6203 said:

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The issue is really just that electric vehicles are on a cost reduction path and technological advancement path that suggests that it is going to be cheaper to buy, cheaper to own, with less inconveniences within the next 7 years. The suggestion that we can demand continuance of oil consumption for transportation is non-sense.

It's also not inherently true that China's dominance in refinement is going to persist as production expands. There are moves by countries that are rich in resources to also move towards refining locally rather than outsourcing to China. China is dominant in refining, they are not dominant in domestic resources and their current refining capacity is a fraction of future demand.

---

I wouldn't say it should be demanded, but I think it should be permitted to continue.

Quote:

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The suggestion that we can demand continuance of oil consumption for transportation is non-sense.

---

The suggestion that you can tell "us" what we can or can't demand (with our patronage and dollars) is tyranny.

TX AG 88 said:

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Quote:

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The suggestion that we can demand continuance of oil consumption for transportation is non-sense.

---

The suggestion that you can tell "us" what we can or can't demand (with our patronage and dollars) is tyranny.

---

Anyone that thinks we can get by without oil products for transportation for the foreseeable future is living in fantasy land. At some point the governments in Europe, CA, etc will have to answer to a bunch of angry voters when people realize going carbon free can only happen with a destruction of life as they know it.

There is no need to demand it as the market will send a very strong, unmistakable message.

Texasclipper said:

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Tesla block woman from charging her car due to Carfax error and she can't get them to undo it.

https://www.ktre.com/2023/09/15/tesla-blocks-woman-charging-her-car/

"You will own nothing and like it". It's for her own good though. Yes, i know it's for the supercharger stations, but it is yet another headache where other entities are controlling your car.

---

Yet another reason not to buy those glorified golf carts.

Well, that and them catching on fire…

So we have our resident experts saying how dangerous EVs are so let's see what the IIHS has to say on the matter of safety in accidents based on real world data.

"…data show that rates of injury claims related to the drivers and passengers of electric vehicles were more than 40 percent lower than for identical conventional models over 2011-19. "

https://www.iihs.org/news/detail/with-more-electric-vehicles-comes-more-proof-of-safety

They will say it is because they are heavier just as the data shows SUVs are safer than compact cars in an accident which is true but the simple reality is if you are in an EV vs the same vehicle type that is ICE, real world data shows they are much safer. Other studies also point to the ability to have a lot better crumple zone due to no front engine, low CG so much less roll over risk and stronger structural integrity. I know I am a lot safer riding in a Tesla than driving my Corvette.

I am sure we will also hear again and again about fire risk but there are only 300 deaths per year from car fires out of the 37,000 deaths per year in car accidents so the real risk to worry about is impact injuries.

I am not saying this to advocate for EVs because it should always be an individual choice. Mandates suck and there are pros and cons to all vehicle types which is why we need choices in society so we can get the right solution for each one of us.

Electric Vehicle company with Chinese ties awarded $500 million of taxpayer money for 2nd U.S. plant https://t.co/dqZivcdq7t

— Sara A. Carter (@SaraCarterDC) September 18, 2023

More for China Joe's pals.

China dominates graphite production.

Europe to study Chinese EV subsidies.

Seems to me like China is paying $1,500,000,000 to put a battery plant in the US… seems like a win for us.

Manhattan said:

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Seems to me like China is paying $1,500,000,000 to put a battery plant in the US… seems like a win for us.

---

The CCP bribing Americans (well, Democrats) to get subsidies for expansion and continued/further market dominance in EV's, and you see it as a win. Not surprised.

Quote:

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In order to make the expansion happen, lobbyists for the Chinese Communist Party-tied electric vehicle company funneled cash to Democrats. "Individuals at a law firm registered as foreign agents to lobby on behalf of Gotion, a Chinese electric vehicle battery companydeveloping a controversial project in Michigan, and wired campaign contributions to several top Democrats" reports Fox News.

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All EV's should include a bumper sticker "I love the CCP."

nortex97 said:

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Manhattan said:

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Seems to me like China is paying $1,500,000,000 to put a battery plant in the US… seems like a win for us.

---

The CCP bribing Americans (well, Democrats) to get subsidies for expansion and continued/further market dominance in EV's, and you see it as a win. Not surprised.

Quote:

---

In order to make the expansion happen, lobbyists for the Chinese Communist Party-tied electric vehicle company funneled cash to Democrats. "Individuals at a law firm registered as foreign agents to lobby on behalf of Gotion, a Chinese electric vehicle battery companydeveloping a controversial project in Michigan, and wired campaign contributions to several top Democrats" reports Fox News.

---

All EV's should include a bumper sticker "I love the CCP."

---

Even though Tesla's sold in the US have more USA content than almost any other vehicle sold here?

The Tesla Model Y is the most American content vehicle you can buy.

nortex97 said:

---

Manhattan said:

---

Seems to me like China is paying $1,500,000,000 to put a battery plant in the US… seems like a win for us.

---

The CCP bribing Americans (well, Democrats) to get subsidies for expansion and continued/further market dominance in EV's, and you see it as a win. Not surprised.

Quote:

---

In order to make the expansion happen, lobbyists for the Chinese Communist Party-tied electric vehicle company funneled cash to Democrats. "Individuals at a law firm registered as foreign agents to lobby on behalf of Gotion, a Chinese electric vehicle battery companydeveloping a controversial project in Michigan, and wired campaign contributions to several top Democrats" reports Fox News.

---

All EV's should include a bumper sticker "I love the CCP."

---

Cell phone users should do the same.

techno-ag said:

---

nortex97 said:

---

Agreed. And again, all those rare earth metals are largely controlled/refined by China, politically speaking. As a patriotic American I don't want to turn over so much income/control to China for our personal transportation unless there are some great reasons to do so, which I am unaware of.

In fact, a paperwork error around a minor fender bender could get you precluded from charging one up even? That sounds convenient.

VW layoffs amid plummeting EV demand.

---

There are just so many problems related to EVs both from a practical standpoint and political reasons. I encourage everyone to hold off on buying these things. Your dollars, or the lack thereof, sends a strong message.

---

If you don't have a reliable place to charge your EV overnight, or normally drive 300+ miles daily, then yes, an EV is probably not for you.

nortex97 said:

---

Manhattan said:

---

Seems to me like China is paying $1,500,000,000 to put a battery plant in the US… seems like a win for us.

---

The CCP bribing Americans (well, Democrats) to get subsidies for expansion and continued/further market dominance in EV's, and you see it as a win. Not surprised.

Quote:

---

In order to make the expansion happen, lobbyists for the Chinese Communist Party-tied electric vehicle company funneled cash to Democrats. "Individuals at a law firm registered as foreign agents to lobby on behalf of Gotion, a Chinese electric vehicle battery companydeveloping a controversial project in Michigan, and wired campaign contributions to several top Democrats" reports Fox News.

---

All EV's should include a bumper sticker "I love the CCP."

---

Tesla Model Y is literally made right here in Texas LOL.....but keep digging...you'll hit a factual nugget one of these days.....

And no Model Y sold in the US has a Chinese made battery.

The RWD Model 3 has a Chinese made battery, but you can get one of those for $36,220 + delivery, tt&l so who cares where the battery is made.

Manhattan said:

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And no Model Y sold in the US has a Chinese made battery.

The RWD Model 3 has a Chinese made battery, but you can get one of those for $36,220 + delivery, tt&l so who cares where the battery is made.

---

Every battery in every single ev sold contains a multitude of rare and precious metals controlled by and processed by the ccp. In quantities an order of magnitude greater than a phone.

The category confusion some have about that is akin to equating a pimple to skin cancer.

Or Australia or a number of other countries…

Or we could just mine the volcano…
https://www.chemistryworld.com/news/lithium-discovery-in-us-volcano-could-be-biggest-deposit-ever-found/4018032.article