Surely a way can be found to chemically inert a Lithium Ion battery fire more quickly by affecting the reaction, but I suppose if it really wants to react once it gets going, there may not be any practical options. You have to remove energy fast enough to halt the reaction, or introduce an alternative reactant that releases less energy, but if the original reaction is very energetic itself, there may be no practical way to halt it but by waiting for ot to complete and isolating it from anything else.

Once EV adoption becomes wide spread fire departments will have to adapt to something like that or shoulder the risk they put the community in by being negligent.

This popped up on my feed today. Can't speak to the efficacy, but the strategy is to use a silica quartz fabric with further fire ******ant added and partially smother the fire, reducing the available oxygen from the environment, which reduces the intensity/heat of the fire which allows the water to more effectively cool the reaction.

They claim it allows the time to extinguish and quantity of water to be reduced to roughly the equivalent of a gas vehicle fire.

Really just depends on the stage of the fire by the time emergency services arrive on whether it's even a viable option. Building safer batteries should be the main strategy as no fire is better than a better way to fight one.

MouthBQ98 said:

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Surely a way can be found to chemically inert a Lithium Ion battery fire more quickly by affecting the reaction, but I suppose if it really wants to react once it gets going, there may not be any practical options. You have to remove energy fast enough to halt the reaction, or introduce an alternative reactant that releases less energy, but if the original reaction is very energetic itself, there may be no practical way to halt it but by waiting for ot to complete and isolating it from anything else.

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One big challenge is getting the water/chemical to the battery to put it out given its location. They also are a super hot fire.

And my long term concern about rising oil prices as a large driver in my decision to choose an EV, oil is hovering around ninety bucks a barrel today. Soon the public will be p****d off about the price at the pump and Biden will go to the "strategic and political needs petroleum reserve" to blunt the effect and unpopularity in the rise in prices. And the dude on Fox Business says inventories of crude are low, being 2% below the average for the time of year.

And my EV is outside right now charging up. I haven't seen a gas pump in weeks for needs for my other vehicle.

That's a naive perspective as evs take so much more energy to produce up front and most are charged from oil and gas today. Plus, the reserve is a fraction of actual use, and transportation is still something like 75 percent of your grocery bill. Thinking your ev status insulates you economically from oil and gas price inflation is very myopic, imho.

I am near sighted by the way. I wear glasses to correct that.
I didn't say I'm insulated. I just say that having an EV insulates one from the "shock at the pump". Until I realize the same increases in energy costs as those who see it at the pump every week, then I am insulated. You may be paying more at the pump when energy demand is at it lowest with lower temperatures for example. Anyway, crude oil prices may fall but they may rise. That is out of our hands as we import so much of it. If prices rise much more (and they will) the public will start their BM&Complaining. They always do and to a much greater extent than someone who notices some rise in their monthly utility bill.

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Anyway, crude oil prices may fall but they may rise. That is out of our hands as we import so much of it.

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You again are betraying a basic lack of understanding as the oil and gas prices are a consequence of our executive branch globally (See: proxy war in Ukraine, and sanctions etc.), to a large extent, yet even despite Biden's best efforts we are supposed to be a net exporter this year.

Actual gasoline spend per family/household is a tiny fraction of the energy prices all Americans net pay/consume, directly and indirectly.

nortex97 said:

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That's a naive perspective as evs take so much more energy to produce up front and most are charged from oil and gas today. Plus, the reserve is a fraction of actual use, and transportation is still something like 75 percent of your grocery bill. Thinking your ev status insulates you economically from oil and gas price inflation is very myopic, imho.

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We haven't used oil to generate electricity in any meaningful way in this country since the 70s and nat gas is a lot cheaper per btu.

Not following your logic or rationalizations. I'm just saying that when you start paying between $4.50 and $5.00 for gasoline and are having dyspepsia about it, I will be plugging in and plugging along with no thought in my mind about gasoline prices. Won't concern myself about what the executive branch is or isn't doing doing because I won't see that price every week.

I'm all in for nuclear power for power generation.

Bypass all that and just give us nuclear power in the cars/trucks that charges a solid state battery and/or runs the electric motors. Then when not driving it powers the house or feeds the grid

JayM said:

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Not following your logic or rationalizations. I'm just saying that when you start paying between $4.50 and $5.00 for gasoline and are having dyspepsia about it, I will be plugging in and plugging along with no thought in my mind about gasoline prices. Won't concern myself about what the executive branch is or isn't doing doing because I won't see that price every week.

I'm all in for nuclear power for power generation.

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Again, no issue/agree with nuclear but I think the rest is very short sighted, and I don't even pay for gas, driving a company car/company fuel card, but for my wife who has a 5 mile commute in her vehicle (thank you for worrying about me though).

Only around 60 percent of oil consumption is for fuel, and a lot of that is for stuff like 18 wheelers, planes, ships, construction equip, etc. So, maybe 20 percent goes to consumer transportation (ICE vehicles).

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About 60 percent of global oil consumption is in the form of fuel. Much of what remains goes into a staggering array of products and household goods, many of which don't have obvious connections to oil.
Shoes and handbags made from vegan leather, for instance, are petroleum-based. So are nylon stockings, microfiber fleece and all sorts of other clothing made from synthetic materials. "If you wear eyeglasses, the cost of polycarbonate lenses just went up," Lipow said, adding that he believes prices will go up on almost all goods with oil connections.

Everything made out of or packaged in plastic will be more expensive. "A lot of plastics are made with polypropylene or polyethylene, and the basic building blocks of those are propane and ethane," said Stewart Glickman, an energy equity analyst at CFRA Research. "Those typically are a percentage of the price of a barrel of oil."

Glickman said consumers can expect to pay more for smartphones, computers and TVs all of which have plastic parts. And car prices are likely to stay in the stratosphere for longer. They don't just run on gas petroleum is a building block in tires to plastic body panels to foam seat cushions.

Rising oil prices will also show up at the grocery store. "The agricultural industry is in the higher-impact segment," said Faisal Hersi, an energy analyst at Edward Jones. Industrial fertilizer contains fossil fuels, so more expensive fertilizer means higher prices on grains. That has its own impact; plus it also gets passed on to customers when they put meat, eggs or dairy products in their carts."

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All the rest of that inflationary impact is passed on to you equally, like it or not. Perhaps even disproportionately, if you like so many other EV drivers profess an intent to replace it in 3 or 5 years with a brand new one.

I'm all for letting the market figure out the cheapest, best way to supply us electricity. I love nukes as a concept but not sure it is cost effective due to high capital costs vs alternatives.

It won't always be that way. The country will go on past us and they will need energy. I know it's hard to consider this seriously when it doesn't affect us now.

An interesting thread....

1) The cost. Even the cheap models are expensive. And that price doesn't tell the whole story. They are heavily subsidized by the gov't to keep the prices at a point where people MIGHT be able to afford them. The gov't is essentially paying for part of the purchase price.

— Physics Geek (@physicsgeek) September 15, 2023

4) Energy density. All of these commercials saying "360 miles on a single charge" are probably true if the car/truck is unladen and driving in a temp range where neither the heat nor the A/C needs to be running. That is...well, let's just call it unrealistic.

— Physics Geek (@physicsgeek) September 15, 2023

StandUpforAmerica said:

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An interesting thread....

1) The cost. Even the cheap models are expensive. And that price doesn't tell the whole story. They are heavily subsidized by the gov't to keep the prices at a point where people MIGHT be able to afford them. The gov't is essentially paying for part of the purchase price.

— Physics Geek (@physicsgeek) September 15, 2023

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what's interesting is how many of these are flat out wrong.....but hey...if the confirmation bias fits......

5. Fires.

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The cost. Even the cheap models are expensive. And that price doesn't tell the whole story. They are heavily subsidized by the gov't to keep the prices at a point where people MIGHT be able to afford them.

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What a load of BS

JayM said:

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It won't always be that way. The country will go on past us and they will need energy. I know it's hard to consider this seriously when it doesn't affect us now.

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Do you buy anything? Do you eat? Do you travel?

Do you know what these increased fuel prices do these things? Subsequently it will increase inflation which will drive up interest rates. The whole country will stagnate, costing jobs - maybe yours or your neighbors or your relatives.

I swear some people can't see beyond their own selfish bank account.

StandUpforAmerica said:

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4) Energy density. All of these commercials saying "360 miles on a single charge" are probably true if the car/truck is unladen and driving in a temp range where neither the heat nor the A/C needs to be running. That is...well, let's just call it unrealistic.

— Physics Geek (@physicsgeek) September 15, 2023

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I love his fifth one on weight and concern about parking garages which I have heard from others. Do people realize they weigh about the same or less than SUVs and I haven't heard calls for these same garages collapsing from SUV which are way more prevalent than EV cars.

Kansas Kid said:

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StandUpforAmerica said:

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4) Energy density. All of these commercials saying "360 miles on a single charge" are probably true if the car/truck is unladen and driving in a temp range where neither the heat nor the A/C needs to be running. That is...well, let's just call it unrealistic.

— Physics Geek (@physicsgeek) September 15, 2023

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I love his fifth one on weight and concern about parking garages which I have heard from others. Do people realize they weigh about the same or less than SUVs and I haven't heard calls for these same garages collapsing from SUV which are way more prevalent than EV cars.

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Hey guys ignore the engineers who design parking garages that are warning us about the weigh; Kansas Kid looked up curb weights on Google and said we're fine.

Kansas Kid said:

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StandUpforAmerica said:

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4) Energy density. All of these commercials saying "360 miles on a single charge" are probably true if the car/truck is unladen and driving in a temp range where neither the heat nor the A/C needs to be running. That is...well, let's just call it unrealistic.

— Physics Geek (@physicsgeek) September 15, 2023

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I love his fifth one on weight and concern about parking garages which I have heard from others. Do people realize they weigh about the same or less than SUVs and I haven't heard calls for these same garages collapsing from SUV which are way more prevalent than EV cars.

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It's not the little ones that weigh the same as SUVs, it's the big ones. The Big Berthas.

PlaneCrashGuy said:

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Kansas Kid said:

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StandUpforAmerica said:

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4) Energy density. All of these commercials saying "360 miles on a single charge" are probably true if the car/truck is unladen and driving in a temp range where neither the heat nor the A/C needs to be running. That is...well, let's just call it unrealistic.

— Physics Geek (@physicsgeek) September 15, 2023

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I love his fifth one on weight and concern about parking garages which I have heard from others. Do people realize they weigh about the same or less than SUVs and I haven't heard calls for these same garages collapsing from SUV which are way more prevalent than EV cars.

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Hey guys ignore the engineers who design parking garages that are warning us about the weigh; Kansas Kid looked up curb weights on Google and said we're fine.

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Let's see, Teslas are by far the most common EV. The heaviest Tesla is a model X at 5,200- 5,400 pounds.
A Chevy suburban weights 5,600-6,300 which is similar to most large SUVs. A Ford F-150 can be up to 5,740.
So why is it the EVs are a concern for parking garages and SUVs and full size pickups aren't? Do EVs have magic weight that weighs more than SUVs?

I can understand where there are structures that may have an issue with heavier vehicles than 30-50 years ago but this issue predates EVs.

You are very emotional and pedantic. I am in a position where I have the time to shop for groceries and to purchase cars. I know how expensive things are. EV still works for me. Give it about another fifty cents a gallon and gasoline prices will be mainstream news soon. Almost as much as Coach Prime Time is now. I am financially secure by the way. I buy what I want. No car notes ever. Even expensive EVs or Type S Acuras.

Kansas Kid said:

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PlaneCrashGuy said:

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Kansas Kid said:

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StandUpforAmerica said:

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4) Energy density. All of these commercials saying "360 miles on a single charge" are probably true if the car/truck is unladen and driving in a temp range where neither the heat nor the A/C needs to be running. That is...well, let's just call it unrealistic.

— Physics Geek (@physicsgeek) September 15, 2023

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I love his fifth one on weight and concern about parking garages which I have heard from others. Do people realize they weigh about the same or less than SUVs and I haven't heard calls for these same garages collapsing from SUV which are way more prevalent than EV cars.

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Hey guys ignore the engineers who design parking garages that are warning us about the weigh; Kansas Kid looked up curb weights on Google and said we're fine.

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Let's see, Teslas are by far the most common EV. The heaviest Tesla is a model X at 5,200- 5,400 pounds.
A Chevy suburban weights 5,600-6,300 which is similar to most large SUVs. A Ford F-150 can be up to 5,740.
So why is it the EVs are a concern for parking garages and SUVs and full size pickups aren't? Do EVs have magic weight that weighs more than SUVs?

I can understand where there are structures that may have an issue with heavier vehicles than 30-50 years ago but this issue predates EVs.

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Is this satire? A heavier car exists so its not a problem? I'm probably wasting my time. If you're not listening to the Professional Engineers that design the damn things, why would I expect you to listen to me.

The factored design live load in each space of a parking garage is around 11,000 to 12,000 lbs. Move on

PlaneCrashGuy said:

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Kansas Kid said:

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PlaneCrashGuy said:

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Kansas Kid said:

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StandUpforAmerica said:

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4) Energy density. All of these commercials saying "360 miles on a single charge" are probably true if the car/truck is unladen and driving in a temp range where neither the heat nor the A/C needs to be running. That is...well, let's just call it unrealistic.

— Physics Geek (@physicsgeek) September 15, 2023

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I love his fifth one on weight and concern about parking garages which I have heard from others. Do people realize they weigh about the same or less than SUVs and I haven't heard calls for these same garages collapsing from SUV which are way more prevalent than EV cars.

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Hey guys ignore the engineers who design parking garages that are warning us about the weigh; Kansas Kid looked up curb weights on Google and said we're fine.

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Let's see, Teslas are by far the most common EV. The heaviest Tesla is a model X at 5,200- 5,400 pounds.
A Chevy suburban weights 5,600-6,300 which is similar to most large SUVs. A Ford F-150 can be up to 5,740.
So why is it the EVs are a concern for parking garages and SUVs and full size pickups aren't? Do EVs have magic weight that weighs more than SUVs?

I can understand where there are structures that may have an issue with heavier vehicles than 30-50 years ago but this issue predates EVs.

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Is this satire? A heavier car exists so it's not a problem? I'm probably wasting my time. If you're not listening to the Professional Engineers that design the damn things, why would I expect you to listen to me.

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So why aren't they worried about even heavier SUVs which are much more common today? Can you answer that basic question because as an engineer, I was taught that what matters is the weight of the material and not what it is made of.

tk for tu juan said:

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The factored design live load in each space of a parking garage is around 11,000 to 12,000 lbs. Move on

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I think he is referred to older structures (40-50+) that haven't been well maintained. What he doesn't seem to understand is that cars have already gotten a lot heavier since 1980 yet this is only just now being raised by the anti EV crowd. If you are worried about 5,000+ pound vehicles, then let's stop SUVs and full-size pickup trucks and anything else above that weight from entering garages because the structure doesn't know if it is holding up a battery or not.

Historical change
"The average weight of a new vehicle sold in the US last year was a whopping 4,329 pounds.

That's over 1,000 pounds higher than the average in 1980, and up about 175 pounds in just the last three years. Essentially, more than a third of the average American car has been added in the past 40 years" - Bloomberg

Kansas Kid said:

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tk for tu juan said:

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The factored design live load in each space of a parking garage is around 11,000 to 12,000 lbs. Move on

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I think he is referred to older structures (40-50+) that haven't been well maintained. What he doesn't seem to understand is that cars have already gotten a lot heavier since 1980



yet this is only just now being raised by the anti EV crowd.

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You're correct. We remained quiet when they announced legislation to ban all vehicles smaller than an F-150 by 2040. But when they announced bans for any/all non EV's, then we rose up, because EV's suck or something. Its clearly just a cabal of old men yelling at clouds, or they would have brought this issue up sooner.

Its take a serious lack of self awareness to equate the two. But most EV owners I see post here are in serious denial, so they're at least consistent.

https://nypost.com/2023/04/19/electric-vehicles-could-put-pressure-on-parking-garages/amp/

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Parking garages across the US could be at risk of collapse over the weight of heavier electric vehicles, experts warned, as one such garage fell in Lower Manhattan, killing one person and injuring five.

The battery of an electric GMC Hummer, for example, weighs about 2,900 pounds, roughly the entire weight of a Honda Civic.

Likewise, the Audi E-tron SUV weighs about 5,765 pounds, much heavier than the Ford Explorer SUV, which weighs about 4,345 pounds.

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With or without the existence of EVs, those older garages will have to be modified to meet current design codes any time an improvement is proposed and/or a rehabilitation project begins.

tk for tu juan said:

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With or without the existence of EVs, those older garages will have to be modified to meet current design codes any time an improvement is proposed and/or a rehabilitation project begins.

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Exactly

Let's count the number of EVs in the pic from the NY collapse vs SUVs and vans.