Kansas Kid said:

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ChemAg15 said:

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So we agree that no company should receive a dime to help produce EVs. What's your point? That we should all refuse to buy fords because the company isnt stupid enough to turn down cheap money when the government is willing to pass it out?

The government should **** off and stop trying to make EVs happen before the market is ready. It's not Fords fault that the market is being manipulated and they're forced to adapt.

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I think his point is that the big automakers and their unions have repeatedly been bailed out making ICE vehicles over the years so why do people only whine about the EV subsidies. They should all be done away with and the big 3 automakers should have all gone through Ch 11 and their unions seen their oversized benefits slashed like everyone else that works for a Ch 11 company.

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If you had been on here 15 years ago, you would know that plenty of us botched about bailouts then too.

oldcrow91 said:

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Medaggie said:

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I never will understand why people are so staunch against EVs. Yes, I agree the gov should not subsidize/mandate it.

They subsidize Farming like crazy as it is good for the economy/national security.

EVs are coming. The biggest market has mandated EVs, Europe has mandated EVs. If the US does not follow, then we will be left behind with all foreign makers dominated the US market sans Tesla.

The gov is mandating, subsidizing legacy Auto so they won't go bankrupt.

if the Gov did not pass any EV laws, subsidize the industry then in 10 yrs there will be only one US car maker left. They know that, Big 3 knows this, the Union knows this.

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I think you answered your question in the first sentence.
Govt wasting money and mandates.

ETA: second sentence.

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Medaggie is a broken record. Just can't understand why people are anti-EV. Like it hasn't been discussed in this thread ad nauseam. Like its just one of the great mysteries of our time. Why oh why do people have strong feelings against EVs. I guess we will never know.

Reading for comprehension just isn't a strong suit for some.

munch96 said:

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Ok, and? Electricity prices won't when this EV mandate goes into effect?

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Try to get out of the moment and any "politics " lack of rationality in discussing this topic. We will always have energy at the electrical receptacle because we can generate from nuclear, and even fossil fuels (namely coal) well into the future. And for that reason electricity will be relatively cheaper than if we just depend on nat gas power generation. To get there we will have to go through a shock that convinces people we have to generate more from nuclear. It may not happen for fifty years or long after I'm gone. But it makes sense to come up with the next alternative to what we are doing now because we don't have an infinite supply of cheap gasoline into the future. Let's say you go to the pump and the cost rises two to three dollars to about seven bucks a gallon. There will be BMC to no ends if this happens. That will convince others that most of their regular needs can be served by an EV. A second ICE vehicle can serve as the backup. But there will be life in this country in 100 years and they are gonna have to do something to get around. I don't take a myopic view on this. And should anyone want a view of what it is like to have an EV with their current range limitations I can vouch for what that is like.

My second vehicle is an ICE vehicle (Acura). We only put gas in it once a month. That is not as big an ouch than if another family has to gas up two ICE vehicles once a week at 7 bucks a gallon. When we get to that point people will purposely drive less to save money. Not me.

I'm not sure what all that has to do with the fact that I don't want to wait more than 30 minutes to go from empty to full charge when I'm going somewhere.

The tech will continue to develop whether I buy electric cars or not. And when it gets to a level of convenience I am satisfied with I may consider one.

techno-ag said:

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Rapier108 said:

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Buyer's Remorse: Why Are 20% Of Early EV Adopters Now Defecting to Internal Combustion?

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Yup. Been said on here repeatedly. Many do not buy another EV the next time.

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Nope, just the ****ty ones

https://insideevs.com/news/668470/tesla-best-brand-loyalty-of-any-automaker/amp/

Quote:

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Tesla continues to have the best brand loyalty in the car industry. The manufacturer now has a loyalty rating of 67%, with the industry average being 46%.

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A Tesla is safer, just as light, less prone to fire, has more loyalty than just about any ICE vehicle

munch96 said:

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I'm not sure what all that has to do with the fact that I don't want to wait more than 30 minutes to go from empty to full charge when I'm going somewhere.

The tech will continue to develop whether I buy electric cars or not. And when it gets to a level of convenience I am satisfied with I may consider one.

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In the future charging will be faster. In the meantime it requires the owner of the EV to accept a different mindset. Last Thanksgiving I saw twenty five Teslas at the chargers and another ten waiting to charge at the Madisonville, TX Buc-ee's. They were just on their laptops or reading a book or whatever as they charged. They've made the mindset switch. I'll accept that you will never, ever in your life drive an EV. We use our about 80% of the time as we go about our daily life activities. We put on about 1100 miles a month. And we charge at home overnight. If one is putting on 300 plus miles a day for their work/activity, they will have to stop somewhere and charge. And if they don't have the time or the patience, it could be a PITA.

Manhattan said:

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20% of ev models on the road are *****

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Explain how a better EV impacts renters who are abandoning EVs because homes are not equipped for L2 charging?

JayM said:

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munch96 said:

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Ok, and? Electricity prices won't when this EV mandate goes into effect?

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Try to get out of the moment and any "politics " lack of rationality in discussing this topic. We will always have energy at the electrical receptacle because we can generate from nuclear, and even fossil fuels (namely coal) well into the future. And for that reason electricity will be relatively cheaper than if we just depend on nat gas power generation. To get there we will have to go through a shock that convinces people we have to generate more from nuclear. It may not happen for fifty years or long after I'm gone. But it makes sense to come up with the next alternative to what we are doing now because we don't have an infinite supply of cheap gasoline into the future. Let's say you go to the pump and the cost rises two to three dollars to about seven bucks a gallon. There will be BMC to no ends if this happens. That will convince others that most of their regular needs can be served by an EV. A second ICE vehicle can serve as the backup. But there will be life in this country in 100 years and they are gonna have to do something to get around. I don't take a myopic view on this. And should anyone want a view of what it is like to have an EV with their current range limitations I can vouch for what that is like.

My second vehicle is an ICE vehicle (Acura). We only put gas in it once a month. That is not as big an ouch than if another family has to gas up two ICE vehicles once a week at 7 bucks a gallon. When we get to that point people will purposely drive less to save money. Not me.

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Are you seriously arguing that we are running out of oil?

techno-ag said:

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Rapier108 said:

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Buyer's Remorse: Why Are 20% Of Early EV Adopters Now Defecting to Internal Combustion?

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Yup. Been said on here repeatedly. Many do not buy another EV the next time.

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The most popular EV on the road, by far, in 2018 when that survey concluded was the Nissan Leaf. A vehicle that basically had to be exclusively charged at home (or the equivalent level 2 charger in public), and had a limited range of 150 miles. The Model 3 had only gone into initial production and the Model S and X by comparison were niche products with much lower lifetime sales. The base Model 3 at launch had a range of 220 miles. The newest iteration of the base Model 3 now has a range of 300 miles, with the long range variant having ~375 miles of range (up from 310). In 6 years the range of the vehicle increased by 20-35% and each of those variants is reportedly cheaper to build than they were in 2017.

That's what you're fighting against, much better products with ever reducing costs. I didn't know anyone that owned a Tesla 3 years ago, in the last year I know 3 people that have bought a Model Y and they all love it. One of whom hates Elon Musk and called EVs gay, then one of our friends bought the Model Y and he ultimately decided to buy one. He just drove from Dallas to South Padre this last weekend and was amazed at how well the Superchargers worked. EV charging at his hotel and the one next door. He can't shut up about how much he loves the car.


There's a reason the dominant EV discussed on these forums from a positive standpoint are Teslas and there's a reason the dominant EVs discussed in complaints about EVs are non-Teslas. That's about to change now that Tesla is opening up their charging standard and are reportedly installing new chargers at 70% the cost of their competitors. If you want to see what the future of EVs looks like, look at Tesla.

Logos Stick said:

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JayM said:

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munch96 said:

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Ok, and? Electricity prices won't when this EV mandate goes into effect?

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Try to get out of the moment and any "politics " lack of rationality in discussing this topic. We will always have energy at the electrical receptacle because we can generate from nuclear, and even fossil fuels (namely coal) well into the future. And for that reason electricity will be relatively cheaper than if we just depend on nat gas power generation. To get there we will have to go through a shock that convinces people we have to generate more from nuclear. It may not happen for fifty years or long after I'm gone. But it makes sense to come up with the next alternative to what we are doing now because we don't have an infinite supply of cheap gasoline into the future. Let's say you go to the pump and the cost rises two to three dollars to about seven bucks a gallon. There will be BMC to no ends if this happens. That will convince others that most of their regular needs can be served by an EV. A second ICE vehicle can serve as the backup. But there will be life in this country in 100 years and they are gonna have to do something to get around. I don't take a myopic view on this. And should anyone want a view of what it is like to have an EV with their current range limitations I can vouch for what that is like.

My second vehicle is an ICE vehicle (Acura). We only put gas in it once a month. That is not as big an ouch than if another family has to gas up two ICE vehicles once a week at 7 bucks a gallon. When we get to that point people will purposely drive less to save money. Not me.

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Are you seriously arguing that we are running out of oil?

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Yes, I am seriously saying and not arguing that every day we are running out of this finite resource. I am an old oil company person. I don't know when and I don't know what it will look like the moment we can't put all the gallons in the storage tanks at a gas station but it will happen. So again, Drake started the oil business in 1859. We are I guess now in the third century of easy, cheap oil. But now in the US we have to drill horizontal wells in oil source rock and frac the heck out of it. I'm saying that sometime in the future that will end. It will slowly end. The first indication of an out of balance supply and demand will be price spikes. So it may not happen in your lifetime but it will in your kids or grand kids time. At that point we will save what we produce to maintain our defense and transportation (airline) needs.

Are you arguing we will never run out? Or a better description is will we get to the point where our supply out of the ground does not balance with the needs? Yes, I am saying we are slowly depleting this finite resource. For you young Aggies with your degrees in petroleum engineering, geology or economics, you may have studied this. When will supply and demand go out of balance?

So it is good that Elon Musk and his competition are seriously thinking about this. We will always have nuclear power to generate electricity. And soon enough anyone who saw The China Syndrome will pass and the fear of nuclear will disappear.

JayM said:

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munch96 said:

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Until battery tech improves to the point where it can go from empty to full charge in the same time as it takes me to fill my gas tank, I likely will not get an EV as a primary vehicle.

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Unless of course gasoline gets so expensive it makes you sick to fill up. By the way, you charge at night while you sleep. Or you stop at Buc-ee's to charge or you drive your ICE vehicle on long trips. I've said this already but your young grandkids or their children will not be using ICE vehicles. Or at least mine won't.

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Correct, because by then, private vehicle ownership will be banned. Your grandkids will uber or take the metro.

PlaneCrashGuy said:

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JayM said:

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munch96 said:

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Until battery tech improves to the point where it can go from empty to full charge in the same time as it takes me to fill my gas tank, I likely will not get an EV as a primary vehicle.

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Unless of course gasoline gets so expensive it makes you sick to fill up. By the way, you charge at night while you sleep. Or you stop at Buc-ee's to charge or you drive your ICE vehicle on long trips. I've said this already but your young grandkids or their children will not be using ICE vehicles. Or at least mine won't.

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Correct, because by then, private vehicle ownership will be banned. Your grandkids will uber or take the metro.

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Well back in the olden days people used to ride trolleys around all sorts of large and not so large cities. What goes around comes around I guess. When I was a kid and moved to a town that was close to a city of 70 K people I was always intrigued by the tracks that ran all over the place. I asked mom, what are those for? She said "people used to travel around the city here on trolley cars". "it was common".

PlaneCrashGuy said:

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Correct, because by then, private vehicle ownership will be banned. Your grandkids will uber or take the metro.

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When it gets to that point, I'm gonna be like Lee Majors and race the last gas powered car to freedom…

If you believe we will run out then I'm ok with your motivation to move to an alternative. But that's not what this is about. The market would drive that, as gas becomes more scarce and prices rise dramatically. This is being forced upon us and it's nowhere settled that it will make one ounce of difference as far as climate. Asia is the biggest car market and they are burning coal like mad. They are not serious about it. There is also not enough lithium to do it, among many other hard obstacles. Its idiocy.

Correct, they did that for a long while. But overall quality of life improved drastically as the times began to allow for most people to afford a private vehicle.

When measured with the yardstick of "freedom of mobility", you've admitted your trolly riding grandkids will be worse off than you. But as you said, everything is cyclical.

PlaneCrashGuy said:

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JayM said:

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munch96 said:

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Until battery tech improves to the point where it can go from empty to full charge in the same time as it takes me to fill my gas tank, I likely will not get an EV as a primary vehicle.

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Unless of course gasoline gets so expensive it makes you sick to fill up. By the way, you charge at night while you sleep. Or you stop at Buc-ee's to charge or you drive your ICE vehicle on long trips. I've said this already but your young grandkids or their children will not be using ICE vehicles. Or at least mine won't.

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Correct, because by then, private vehicle ownership will be banned. Your grandkids will uber or take the metro.

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Except for Party elites. They will have a car and driver to whisk them around, just as in Soviet Russia.

China's EV market share sits at ~35% of new vehicles right now and are scheduled to deploy 10% more solar power this year than the United States has in total.

Logos Stick said:

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If you believe we will run out then I'm ok with your motivation to move to an alternative. But that's not what this is about. The market would drive that, as gas becomes more scarce and prices rise dramatically. This is being forced upon us and it's nowhere settled that it will make one ounce of difference as far as climate. Asia is the biggest car market and they are burning coal like mad. They are not serious about it. There is also not enough lithium to do it, among many other hard obstacles. Its idiocy.

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Yes, it is being forced upon us which is beyond aggravating. It causes enough "rage" that people don't want to consider an EV for being pushed into it. It just so happened it was time for me to get out of my 16 year old Toyota Tundra. I wasn't forced into my Lightning but I took a chance it would work for us and I also have the belief that oil and gasoline are going to just get higher from here.

I don't know when we will pass the oil is scarce point. Where are the new giant reserves being found? I think offshore Africa is a place. But it is out in thousands of feet of water. No new oil is easy anymore. Read up on the depletion prediction for fields in the North Sea. That is a slowly dying petroleum province that started as a viable and new source in the late 1960s.

hph6203 said:

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China's EV market share sits at 35% right now and are scheduled to deploy 10% more solar power this year than the United States has in total. Emissions aren't my primary concern, but it's important to be honest.

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Not surprised those commies trend that way.

techno-ag said:

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PlaneCrashGuy said:

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JayM said:

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munch96 said:

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Until battery tech improves to the point where it can go from empty to full charge in the same time as it takes me to fill my gas tank, I likely will not get an EV as a primary vehicle.

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Unless of course gasoline gets so expensive it makes you sick to fill up. By the way, you charge at night while you sleep. Or you stop at Buc-ee's to charge or you drive your ICE vehicle on long trips. I've said this already but your young grandkids or their children will not be using ICE vehicles. Or at least mine won't.

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Correct, because by then, private vehicle ownership will be banned. Your grandkids will uber or take the metro.

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Except for Party elites. They will have a car and driver to whisk them around, just as in Soviet Russia.

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It's a lot easier to ban cars that need refined gasoline than ones that can be charged with solar…. (In b4 bio diesel)

You win. We get it you don't like EVs not matter what b/c its been mandated.

No one really cares if you buy one or not. Imagine if someone came on to trash ICE vehicles every time a thread in Automotive comes up about a Camary, Porsche, Truck. It gets kind of dumb you think?

This thread will not age very well when all the EV trashers are driving one.

I wouldn't trust anyone that would trash talk a Porsche.

PlaneCrashGuy said:

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Correct, they did that for a long while. But overall quality of life improved drastically as the times began to allow for most people to afford a private vehicle.

When measured with the yardstick of "freedom of mobility", you've admitted your trolly riding grandkids will be worse off than you. But as you said, everything is cyclical.

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What will they ride on in 300 years? The USA has been a country for a bit less than 300 years. I can assure you the future will come and people (I hope) will live in the future and ride on/in something. Maybe the alternative they choose will be okay. Again, don't be myopic and believe the way it is will be the way it always is. It won't.

Now I apologize for being far off topic. If a person chooses to never use an EV, I will take them at their word and I really don't care at all. I just happen to be one who has experienced both types.

The "experts" have been saying we're about to run out of oil since the 70s. Maybe that's true this time, or maybe they'll find new sources and better ways to get it like they've been doing for the last 50 years.

I just don't think there's any reason to artificially influence the market either way. There won't be a "moment" that oil suddenly dries up and becomes unaffordable. It may just happen naturally over time, and free markets will be there with alternatives people want without the government "knowing best."

Logos Stick said:

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If you believe we will run out then I'm ok with your motivation to move to an alternative. But that's not what this is about. The market would drive that, as gas becomes more scarce and prices rise dramatically. This is being forced upon us and it's nowhere settled that it will make one ounce of difference as far as climate. Asia is the biggest car market and they are burning coal like mad. They are not serious about it. There is also not enough lithium to do it, among many other hard obstacles. Its idiocy.

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Definitely forced on us. When I'm at a supercharger one topic of conversation is comparing wounds from when we were beaten and forced to buy our cars.

rynning said:

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The "experts" have been saying we're about to run out of oil since the 70s. Maybe that's true this time, or maybe they'll find new sources and better ways to get it like they've been doing for the last 50 years.

I just don't think there's any reason to artificially influence the market either way. There won't be a "moment" that oil suddenly dries up and becomes unaffordable. It may just happen naturally over time, and free markets will be there with alternatives people want without the government "knowing best."

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What did I say? I said it will happen gradually when stations order product and there will be a few gallons less available than asked for. It will not suddenly dry up. If you worked in the business you'd be familiar with production decline curves which are asymptotic on the low end. That means lots of wells producing a little oil for a long time. Yes, there is always infill drilling and better technology to get those resources/reserves. Just know that as much oil as has been produced to date, there is more left in the ground in those same fields as technologically unrecoverable oil. Until the technology changes. But realistically, we are (slowly) running out of it. And there are some countries who have it in relative abundance (Russia) who are not inclined to supply it to others they don't like.

Would you feel better if "the powers that be" lay out in front of us what our options are for the future of energy supply given knowledge of when changes should be made or if they ever need to be changed? The later being oil is abundant and we never will run out. Yes, the first predictions of the end of oil was that we'd run out in the 70s.

Again, this is way off topic. Can you see you or your wife or future wife driving around town in an EV? I am all for expanding and improving this technology. I should swear off replying anymore here. We all know how the others feel.

And to make all of you feel better, with a quick search, I find estimates place all the oil ever produced in the world at 1.5 trillion barrels of oil. And remaining recoverable oil is 1.6 trillion barrels of oil. All the while demand increases and will increase until the end of the oil era.

Bailouts and mandates are hardly comparable.

Silly to even compare them.

JayM said:

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Would you feel better if "the powers that be" lay out in front of us what our options are for the future of energy supply given knowledge of when changes should be made or if they ever need to be changed? The later being oil is abundant and we never will run out. Yes, the first predictions of the end of oil was that we'd run out in the 70s.

Again, this is way off topic. Can you see you or your wife or future wife driving around town in an EV?

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Of course. I think they're pretty cool and may own one when it makes sense for me, but why artificially manipulate the market now by subsidizing "clean" energy or suppressing fossil fuels? The "powers that be" may not actually have the purest of hearts.

I'm convinced they don't have good intentions.

cecil77 said:

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Bailouts and mandates are hardly comparable.

Silly to even compare them.

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Agreed. The bailout of GM was worse since the government used them to literally steal a company from secured creditors.

A question if I may because i don't fully understand why EV batteries cannot handle sea water without catching fire in large numbers? Happened again after Idalia in Florida. Cars get wet. What is it about salt water that causes such a catalyst? More conductivity in the salt water?

Is there a way to harden that system?

aggiehawg said:

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A question if I may because i don't fully understand why EV batteries cannot handle sea water without catching fire in large numbers? Happened again after Idalia in Florida. Cars get wet. What is it about salt water that causes such a catalyst? More conductivity in the salt water?

Is there a way to harden that system?

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That's what they do. They spontaneously combust.

techno-ag said:

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aggiehawg said:

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A question if I may because i don't fully understand why EV batteries cannot handle sea water without catching fire in large numbers? Happened again after Idalia in Florida. Cars get wet. What is it about salt water that causes such a catalyst? More conductivity in the salt water?

Is there a way to harden that system?

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That's what they do. They spontaneously combust.

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What percentage of EV's spontaneously combust? The tenth place is fine.

aggiehawg said:

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A question if I may because i don't fully understand why EV batteries cannot handle sea water without catching fire in large numbers? Happened again after Idalia in Florida. Cars get wet. What is it about salt water that causes such a catalyst? More conductivity in the salt water?

Is there a way to harden that system?

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The best way to harden the system is to avoid driving your Tesla until it's submerged in seawater.

Teslag said:

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techno-ag said:

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aggiehawg said:

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A question if I may because i don't fully understand why EV batteries cannot handle sea water without catching fire in large numbers? Happened again after Idalia in Florida. Cars get wet. What is it about salt water that causes such a catalyst? More conductivity in the salt water?

Is there a way to harden that system?

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That's what they do. They spontaneously combust.

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What percentage of EV's spontaneously combust? The tenth place is fine.

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All of them if they're damaged to the point of battery cell exposure and then salt water is introduced to said exposed cells?


***BTW, this is a silly criticism, on the whole.***