I will never buy an electric powered vehicle.

530,243 Views | 7787 Replies | Last: 1 mo ago by techno-ag
nortex97
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AG
Good one.

More on EV's, the government, and weight:


Quote:

Despite hearing corporate and government actors praise the merits of electrification for years, a sobering reality appears to be taking hold. Despite boasting exquisite torque delivery and the ability to benefit from at-home charging, the public is beginning to doubt their status as economical and environmentally sound transportation. EV prices haven't fallen as promised, battery mining turned out to be rather contentious, and the vehicles themselves continue getting heavier resulting in some record-setting curb weights that are likely serving to undermine roadway health and automotive safety.

While the weight issue may be more pronounced among EVs, it's hardly limited to them. Just about every modern vehicle outweighs its ancestors by a staggering amount and a National Bureau of Economic Research (NBER) study has claimed that an extra 1,000 pounds increases the chance of crash fatalities between vehicles by 47 percent.


Quote:

Whereas combustion vehicles have porked up due to an overall increase in sizing and standard features, electric vehicles currently weigh a lot primarily due to battery implementation. EV batteries are exceptionally heavy and many models have already embraced a lot of other lightweight components in an effort to offset that mandatory heft. Sadly, there's only so much that can be done without sacrificing other aspects of the vehicle's performance.

From Automotive News:

Quote:

"It's a vicious cycle," said Sam Abuelsamid, e-mobility analyst at Guidehouse Insights. "If you have a 9,000-pound vehicle versus a 6,000-pound vehicle, you need bigger brake rotors and calipers. You've also got to have heavier wheels and tires as the vehicle goes up in weight."
Quote:

Besides the heavy batteries, EVs have gained weight because they are over-engineered for safety, according to experts.
Quote:

"No one wants to have a fire, and no one wants a vehicle that isn't crashworthy," Detroit teardown and cost guru Sandy Munro told Automotive News. "There is over-engineering, and it's being done to ensure that if something does go wrong that lives won't be in jeopardy."

"If you look at the [EV] skateboard chassis and squint, it looks a lot like a body-on-frame with a top hat," Munro continued. "There's not much we can really do to reduce weight when you move to a skateboard, which has to have quite a bit of structural integrity because it is carrying the load."

Modest weight saving could be accomplished by removing some of the sound-deadening materials, shrinking the battery, and yanking out some of the sensing equipment required for advanced driving aids. But then you'd be left with low-range electric with none of the trendy tech and some of the worst NVH issues imaginable. People wouldn't go for it on combustion vehicles and assuredly wouldn't on an allegedly premium EV.
Logos Stick
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Don't worry, the Japanese are working on a fix. Much lighter, solid state batteries that don't explode and don't require rare earth elements are right around the corner. The batteries will last 40 years, double the range and recycle themselves.
Teslag
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AG
Tesla Model 3 - 3,582 pounds

Toyota Camry V6 AWD - 3,530 pounds


Another myth down. ICE vehicles are just as heavy and according to NTSB data, significantly more prone to fire
JayM
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RoyVal said:

Teslag said:

Why? Most Tesla drives don't care where the electricity comes from.
big facts LMAO!
The power that runs my Lightning comes from my circuit panel box. The same place I get my dishwasher power.
Logos Stick
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On average, EVs are 20% heavier. Way to cherry pick, hoss.
Teslag
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AG
Logos Stick said:

On average, EVs are 20% heavier. Way to cherry pick, hoss.


Cherry picking the two most popular standard sedans in the US?
Logos Stick
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Teslag said:

Logos Stick said:

On average, EVs are 20% heavier. Way to cherry pick, hoss.


Cherry picking the two most popular standard sedans in the US?



LOL, picking those two vehicles doesn't bust the myth, which you asserted. You are free to do a weighted average assuming every ice is replaced with a comparable EV and get back to us though. Perhaps you can still bust the myth.
Manhattan
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I went from an F150 3.5 SCREW, 4x4 to a Model Y. Much lighter.
Medaggie
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I never will understand why people are so staunch against EVs. Yes, I agree the gov should not subsidize/mandate it.

They subsidize Farming like crazy as it is good for the economy/national security.

EVs are coming. The biggest market has mandated EVs, Europe has mandated EVs. If the US does not follow, then we will be left behind with all foreign makers dominated the US market sans Tesla.

The gov is mandating, subsidizing legacy Auto so they won't go bankrupt.

if the Gov did not pass any EV laws, subsidize the industry then in 10 yrs there will be only one US car maker left. They know that, Big 3 knows this, the Union knows this.

munch96
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AG
Until battery tech improves to the point where it can go from empty to full charge in the same time as it takes me to fill my gas tank, I likely will not get an EV as a primary vehicle.


Manhattan
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Assuming you can charge at home and unless you are regularly driving over the range per day, you are spending more time pumping gas than charging at home,
JayM
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munch96 said:

Until battery tech improves to the point where it can go from empty to full charge in the same time as it takes me to fill my gas tank, I likely will not get an EV as a primary vehicle.




Unless of course gasoline gets so expensive it makes you sick to fill up. By the way, you charge at night while you sleep. Or you stop at Buc-ee's to charge or you drive your ICE vehicle on long trips. I've said this already but your young grandkids or their children will not be using ICE vehicles. Or at least mine won't.
munch96
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AG
Manhattan said:

Assuming you can charge at home and unless you are regularly driving over the range per day, you are spending more time pumping gas than charging at home,


If I were just putting around town, sure. Bottom line I don't want to wait 30+ minutes to charge when I go on longer trips out of town.
munch96
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AG
JayM said:


Unless of course gasoline gets so expensive it makes you sick to fill up. By the way, you charge at night while you sleep. Or you stop at Buc-ee's to charge or you drive your ICE vehicle on long trips. I've said this already but your young grandkids or their children will not be using ICE vehicles. Or at least mine won't.


Good for them. They can embrace the suck all they want. In any case if I'm on a road trip somewhere pit stops are 10-15 mins max. Just enough time to gas up, and hit the bathroom or get a drink, even at Buc-ee's…
Medaggie
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munch96 said:

Until battery tech improves to the point where it can go from empty to full charge in the same time as it takes me to fill my gas tank, I likely will not get an EV as a primary vehicle.



You have to weigh the pros/cons for your situation. It is not black and white.

For the majority of commuters that stays in town for the occasional long road trip, the occasional 30-60 min supercharging is a small price to pay for all the other conveniences. We have an ICE and Tesla so for us, I almost never supercharge. In 3 yrs and 80K miles, I have supercharged 4 times for about 2 hrs total. For this small inconvenience, I have saved over 24 hrs of gas pouring, 10 hrs of oil changing, 4 hrs of brakes changing. Plus I have saved about 6-8K in gas.

So for a 2 car family of 5, its a no brainer. Charge overnight, go, save time and money every week.

For a 1 car family, I would still pick a Tesla. We take 2 long road trips over 1K miles a year. Each trip prob adds another 2 hrs of supercharging so maybe 4-5 hrs/yr.

All my trips from Austin to Dallas/Houston/SA are a breeze. I supercharge once and maybe adds another 30 min to the round trip.

If I was a one car family and took long distance road trips monthly, then an EV is not for me.

Some EVs have real range of over 300 miles now. Once they hit over 400 miles real range it will be essentially game over for ICE cars other than those needing to do long payload hauls.

Tesla's Model 3 update essentially increased the range by 10+% without any battery change just from increased efficiency.
munch96
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AG
You and I are on the same page.

As a primary car, it doesn't fit my criteria. As a third or fourth car for in town driving or where I'm not on a schedule to be somewhere on a long trip, it would be fine.

I drove a Model 3 for a week on business in the DC area. Aside from worrying about finding a place to charge, and squeezing that in between meetings at different locations it was fine.

The hybrid minivan I drove on my next visit was much easier, but not as fun to drive.
techno-ag
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AG
Logos Stick said:

Teslag said:

Logos Stick said:

On average, EVs are 20% heavier. Way to cherry pick, hoss.


Cherry picking the two most popular standard sedans in the US?



LOL, picking those two vehicles doesn't bust the myth, which you asserted. You are free to do a weighted average assuming every ice is replaced with a comparable EV and get back to us though. Perhaps you can still bust the myth.
Everybody knows EVs weigh more. It's just fanbois who try and deny it
Trump will fix it.
techno-ag
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AG
munch96 said:

You and I are on the same page.

As a primary car, it doesn't fit my criteria. As a third or fourth car for in town driving or where I'm not on a schedule to be somewhere on a long trip, it would be fine.

I drove a Model 3 for a week on business in the DC area. Aside from worrying about finding a place to charge, and squeezing that in between meetings at different locations it was fine.

The hybrid minivan I drove on my next visit was much easier, but not as fun to drive.

I already have a golf cart for driving around the neighborhood. Don't need an $80,000 one with a big T on it.

/typical car owner who plays golf
Trump will fix it.
Medaggie
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According to data from Cox Automotive, the average cost of a new ICE vehicle was $48,528 in May 2023 compared to $55,488 for the average electric vehicle

As of today, EVs are more expensive but if you include the 7500 EV credit that most Americans can use, its a cost neutral decision.

At the rate that EVs are getting cheaper to make, chinese/foreign brands coming to market, I suspect EVs will be cheaper than ICE in 2-3 yrs regardless of incentives.

Plus most will save 1-2K/yr in gas so pricing will tilt towards Evs.
torrid
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AG
Medaggie said:

According to data from Cox Automotive, the average cost of a new ICE vehicle was $48,528 in May 2023 compared to $55,488 for the average electric vehicle

As of today, EVs are more expensive but if you include the 7500 EV credit that most Americans can use, its a cost neutral decision.

At the rate that EVs are getting cheaper to make, chinese/foreign brands coming to market, I suspect EVs will be cheaper than ICE in 2-3 yrs regardless of incentives.

Plus most will save 1-2K/yr in gas so pricing will tilt towards Evs.
Cost neutral for whom?
Teslag
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AG
techno-ag said:

munch96 said:

You and I are on the same page.

As a primary car, it doesn't fit my criteria. As a third or fourth car for in town driving or where I'm not on a schedule to be somewhere on a long trip, it would be fine.

I drove a Model 3 for a week on business in the DC area. Aside from worrying about finding a place to charge, and squeezing that in between meetings at different locations it was fine.

The hybrid minivan I drove on my next visit was much easier, but not as fun to drive.

I already have a golf cart for driving around the neighborhood. Don't need an $80,000 one with a big T on it.

/typical car owner who plays golf


We still pretending teslas are $80k and golf carts aren't ICE?
techno-ag
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AG
Teslag said:

techno-ag said:

munch96 said:

You and I are on the same page.

As a primary car, it doesn't fit my criteria. As a third or fourth car for in town driving or where I'm not on a schedule to be somewhere on a long trip, it would be fine.

I drove a Model 3 for a week on business in the DC area. Aside from worrying about finding a place to charge, and squeezing that in between meetings at different locations it was fine.

The hybrid minivan I drove on my next visit was much easier, but not as fun to drive.

I already have a golf cart for driving around the neighborhood. Don't need an $80,000 one with a big T on it.

/typical car owner who plays golf


We still pretending teslas are $80k and golf carts aren't ICE?
Mine isn't. I don't know anybody who owns an iCE golf cart. You keep acting like that's all that's out there. Got me again I suppose.
Trump will fix it.
GAC06
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AG
If I was going to spend 80k on an EV, I'd go for a Rivian R1S. 660hp, 340 mile range, seats seven, looks good.

That's about the range my 470hp ICE vehicle gets but faster and with a ton more space.

And no more stopping for gas.
Teslag
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AG
Quote:

I don't know anybody who owns an iCE golf cart.


You've never been to virtually any town along the gulf coast?
JayM
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munch96 said:

JayM said:


Unless of course gasoline gets so expensive it makes you sick to fill up. By the way, you charge at night while you sleep. Or you stop at Buc-ee's to charge or you drive your ICE vehicle on long trips. I've said this already but your young grandkids or their children will not be using ICE vehicles. Or at least mine won't.


Good for them. They can embrace the suck all they want. In any case if I'm on a road trip somewhere pit stops are 10-15 mins max. Just enough time to gas up, and hit the bathroom or get a drink, even at Buc-ee's…
You fail to realize gasoline prices will get high one day.
munch96
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AG
Ok, and? Electricity prices won't when this EV mandate goes into effect?
Rapier108
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Buyer's Remorse: Why Are 20% Of Early EV Adopters Now Defecting to Internal Combustion?
"If you will not fight for right when you can easily win without blood shed; if you will not fight when your victory is sure and not too costly; you may come to the moment when you will have to fight with all the odds against you and only a precarious chance of survival. There may even be a worse case. You may have to fight when there is no hope of victory, because it is better to perish than to live as slaves." - Sir Winston Churchill
Manhattan
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20% of ev models on the road are *****
techno-ag
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AG
Rapier108 said:

Buyer's Remorse: Why Are 20% Of Early EV Adopters Now Defecting to Internal Combustion?
Yup. Been said on here repeatedly. Many do not buy another EV the next time.
Trump will fix it.
GAC06
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AG
JayM said:

munch96 said:

JayM said:


Unless of course gasoline gets so expensive it makes you sick to fill up. By the way, you charge at night while you sleep. Or you stop at Buc-ee's to charge or you drive your ICE vehicle on long trips. I've said this already but your young grandkids or their children will not be using ICE vehicles. Or at least mine won't.


Good for them. They can embrace the suck all they want. In any case if I'm on a road trip somewhere pit stops are 10-15 mins max. Just enough time to gas up, and hit the bathroom or get a drink, even at Buc-ee's…
You fail to realize gasoline prices will get high one day.


And gas stations fewer and farther between
Rydyn
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AG
Quote:

Quote:

You fail to realize gasoline prices will get high one day.


And gas stations fewer and farther between


Spoken like a true "Freedom-loving" Marxist.
tk for tu juan
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4/5 > 1/5
cbr
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AG
Teslag said:

Logos Stick said:

On average, EVs are 20% heavier. Way to cherry pick, hoss.


Cherry picking the two most popular standard sedans in the US?
Lol a model 3 weighs 4100 lbs. they advertise a 1 btty shortened range option version, even more defective, that supposedly weighs 'only' 3600

And this is an indictment of modern ice cars, they are all 1000 lbs overweight for bad reasons. But still lighter than any comparable ev.

A plaid weighs 5300

My big block crew cab 4x4 3/4 ton truck weighs that.

My v8 sportscar weighs 2300.

Properly built vehicles would instantly end any thought of ev production or development.
oldcrow91
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AG
Medaggie said:

I never will understand why people are so staunch against EVs. Yes, I agree the gov should not subsidize/mandate it.

They subsidize Farming like crazy as it is good for the economy/national security.

EVs are coming. The biggest market has mandated EVs, Europe has mandated EVs. If the US does not follow, then we will be left behind with all foreign makers dominated the US market sans Tesla.

The gov is mandating, subsidizing legacy Auto so they won't go bankrupt.

if the Gov did not pass any EV laws, subsidize the industry then in 10 yrs there will be only one US car maker left. They know that, Big 3 knows this, the Union knows this.




I think you answered your question in the first sentence.
Govt wasting money and mandates.

ETA: second sentence.
GAC06
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AG
Rydyn said:

Quote:

Quote:

You fail to realize gasoline prices will get high one day.


And gas stations fewer and farther between


Spoken like a true "Freedom-loving" Marxist.


You could try to find a single thing I've said that makes me a Marxist. Or you could just call names. I hope you feel better now.
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