RAB87 said:
I won't buy an EV until the electricity originates with natural gas or nuclear. And until the batteries can be fully recycled. Solar and wind are absolutely terrible for the environment, far worse than O&G.
Nah, I'm good, thanks.JayM said:
I am about eight months into my EV experience with my Lightning. I love the thing. Though I have an ICE auto (Acura) that I fill once a month or so, I have no idea what gasoline prices are. I put on about 1000 miles a month. Oil prices were about 60 bucks a barrel when I reserved a spot to order. Now oil is about 80 bucks a barrel. I contend before I have to replace the first battery module in my truck oil prices will be even higher. My gamble is that oil prices will continue to get higher and higher. When I need to remember what it is like to drive an ICE car, I will pull the Acura out of the garage.
For those of you who can make an EV work for your needs, I'd recommend giving it consideration.
nortex97 said:
EV's…now take twice as long to sell, both new and used, as last year. That seems…odd, given the booming auto segment in general.
I understand it's an interesting alternative, vs. what it was 10 or more years ago.JayM said:
I am about eight months into my EV experience with my Lightning. I love the thing. Though I have an ICE auto (Acura) that I fill once a month or so, I have no idea what gasoline prices are. I put on about 1000 miles a month. Oil prices were about 60 bucks a barrel when I reserved a spot to order. Now oil is about 80 bucks a barrel. I contend before I have to replace the first battery module in my truck oil prices will be even higher. My gamble is that oil prices will continue to get higher and higher. When I need to remember what it is like to drive an ICE car, I will pull the Acura out of the garage.
For those of you who can make an EV work for your needs, I'd recommend giving it consideration.
There are limited numbers of moving parts and parts on my Lightning. I'd likely pay 30 grand to replace a battery to get another however many years of additional run time. I saw a video on how they replace those batteries which happen to reside in nine separate, connected modules. Now if my battery only lasts five years I'd consider strongly going a different direction. I worked in the oil and gas extraction business. Just common sense tells me there is going to have to be a transition (soon enough) in energy down the road. Oil and natural gas is now coming out of shale (source rock) or in water depths that make discovery and extraction expensive. We'll have to see how production holds up in the middle east. So again, part of my reasoning is that gasoline will continue to get more and more expensive. It's not prohibitive yet but consider how the public complains when gas jumps (and then Biden drains the SPR to mitigate that). But overall as a commuting vehicle for an every day 45 to 50 mile round trip and sometimes more, it's nice to plug it in and have the battery full in the morning. So far my electricity costs have not become oppressive.nortex97 said:I understand it's an interesting alternative, vs. what it was 10 or more years ago.JayM said:
I am about eight months into my EV experience with my Lightning. I love the thing. Though I have an ICE auto (Acura) that I fill once a month or so, I have no idea what gasoline prices are. I put on about 1000 miles a month. Oil prices were about 60 bucks a barrel when I reserved a spot to order. Now oil is about 80 bucks a barrel. I contend before I have to replace the first battery module in my truck oil prices will be even higher. My gamble is that oil prices will continue to get higher and higher. When I need to remember what it is like to drive an ICE car, I will pull the Acura out of the garage.
For those of you who can make an EV work for your needs, I'd recommend giving it consideration.
I think the environmental, trade, and human impacts of a mass shift to those vehicles are net negatives, in addition to the practical trade offs in terms of charging/safety risks.
There is also the long term impact of having one and needing to replace (scrap) the $30K battery which many dismiss and/or ignore (such as those who lease a new $90K Tesla around DFW as seems to be common in my neighborhood).
some of the problems listed: poor sounding horns, wireless charging pads that don't work on all phones, owners not happy with the apps, number of usb chargers....nortex97 said:
EV's offer lot's of tech but struggle to deploy it…reliably.Quote:
Of the advanced tech features offered on both electric and internal combustion vehicles that J.D. Power looked at in its latest Tech Experience Study, problems per 100 vehicles were higher for the new energy vehicles than they were for traditional ones.
Electric vehicles had considerably more problems per 100 units than their ICE counterparts in remote parking assistance, interior gesture controls, and more. That reflects other research by J.D. Power that found that initial quality problems are 46 percent higher for EVs than in ICE vehicles. Further, satisfaction with EVs was lower in most categories in the Automotive Performance, Execution, and Layout (APEAL) study.
ChemAg15 said:
It's the fact that EVs are being forced upon us like they're the greatest technological advancement in the last 100 years. Its that the government wants to take away the freedom to purchase an ICE vehicle. It's that they're being propped up by government subsidies. It's that ICE vehicle prices are being driven up to offset EV manufacture costs. It's that they're not even that green to begin with. It's not that EVs aren't cool, it's the principal of the matter. If EVs were so ****ing great we wouldn't need to have a thread where people needed to tell everyone about them. Except that's the whole point of driving an EV, so you can tell people about it.
ChemAg15 said:
It's the fact that EVs are being forced upon us like they're the greatest technological advancement in the last 100 years. It's that the government wants to take away the freedom to purchase an ICE vehicle. It's that they're being propped up by government subsidies. It's that ICE vehicle prices are being driven up to offset EV manufacture costs. It's that they're not even that green to begin with. It's not that EVs aren't cool, it's the principal of the matter. If EVs were so ****ing great we wouldn't need to have a thread where people needed to tell everyone about them. Except that's the whole point of driving an EV, so you can tell people about it.
Teslag said:ChemAg15 said:
It's the fact that EVs are being forced upon us like they're the greatest technological advancement in the last 100 years. Its that the government wants to take away the freedom to purchase an ICE vehicle. It's that they're being propped up by government subsidies. It's that ICE vehicle prices are being driven up to offset EV manufacture costs. It's that they're not even that green to begin with. It's not that EVs aren't cool, it's the principal of the matter. If EVs were so ****ing great we wouldn't need to have a thread where people needed to tell everyone about them. Except that's the whole point of driving an EV, so you can tell people about it.
This thread wasn't created to tell people about how EV's are good. It was created by someone who didn't know much about them at all had already made a decision that they were terrible.
Kansas Kid said:ChemAg15 said:
It's the fact that EVs are being forced upon us like they're the greatest technological advancement in the last 100 years. It's that the government wants to take away the freedom to purchase an ICE vehicle. It's that they're being propped up by government subsidies. It's that ICE vehicle prices are being driven up to offset EV manufacture costs. It's that they're not even that green to begin with. It's not that EVs aren't cool, it's the principal of the matter. If EVs were so ****ing great we wouldn't need to have a thread where people needed to tell everyone about them. Except that's the whole point of driving an EV, so you can tell people about it.
I agree they should be a free market choice and not a forced mandate but I don't know where you are getting the idea they are driving up ICE car costs. Costs for new cars are up across the board even from brands with little/no ICE vehicles in the lineup.
TXAG 05 said:Teslag said:ChemAg15 said:
It's the fact that EVs are being forced upon us like they're the greatest technological advancement in the last 100 years. Its that the government wants to take away the freedom to purchase an ICE vehicle. It's that they're being propped up by government subsidies. It's that ICE vehicle prices are being driven up to offset EV manufacture costs. It's that they're not even that green to begin with. It's not that EVs aren't cool, it's the principal of the matter. If EVs were so ****ing great we wouldn't need to have a thread where people needed to tell everyone about them. Except that's the whole point of driving an EV, so you can tell people about it.
This thread wasn't created to tell people about how EV's are good. It was created by someone who didn't know much about them at all had already made a decision that they were terrible.
Not a fan of ugly cars, so have no interest in a Tesla. Plus I've ridden in one and it was the most uncomfortable car I've been in
There is a fallacy to this. No one is making anyone buy an EV. The gov is giving incentives to purchase it but that doesn't mean you or anyone has to buy it. This is no different than the Gov putting tariffs on Chinese imports, does that mean they are forcing you to buy American? Of course not.ChemAg15 said:
It's the fact that EVs are being forced upon us like they're the greatest technological advancement in the last 100 years. Its that the government wants to take away the freedom to purchase an ICE vehicle. It's that they're being propped up by government subsidies. It's that ICE vehicle prices are being driven up to offset EV manufacture costs. It's that they're not even that green to begin with. It's not that EVs aren't cool, it's the principal of the matter. If EVs were so ****ing great we wouldn't need to have a thread where people needed to tell everyone about them. Except that's the whole point of driving an EV, so you can tell people about it.
At Least this is a good reason from someone who never drove one.TXAG 05 said:Teslag said:ChemAg15 said:
It's the fact that EVs are being forced upon us like they're the greatest technological advancement in the last 100 years. Its that the government wants to take away the freedom to purchase an ICE vehicle. It's that they're being propped up by government subsidies. It's that ICE vehicle prices are being driven up to offset EV manufacture costs. It's that they're not even that green to begin with. It's not that EVs aren't cool, it's the principal of the matter. If EVs were so ****ing great we wouldn't need to have a thread where people needed to tell everyone about them. Except that's the whole point of driving an EV, so you can tell people about it.
This thread wasn't created to tell people about how EV's are good. It was created by someone who didn't know much about them at all had already made a decision that they were terrible.
Not a fan of ugly cars, so have no interest in a Tesla. Plus I've ridden in one and it was the most uncomfortable car I've been in
This was Ford's decision to get into EVs but has nothing to do with EVs driving up prices of ICE cars. Car prices has gone us similar to everything else and has the most to do with the trillions of funny money pumped into the economy. Its all supply and demand, and when you increase money supply, it creates a higher demand = increased prices.aggieforester05 said:
Ford lost billions on EVs last year and an F150 with leather seats is now $65K. Those lost billions come from somewhere.
Medaggie said:There is a fallacy to this. No one is making anyone buy an EV. The gov is giving incentives to purchase it but that doesn't mean you or anyone has to buy it. .ChemAg15 said:
It's the fact that EVs are being forced upon us like they're the greatest technological advancement in the last 100 years. Its that the government wants to take away the freedom to purchase an ICE vehicle. It's that they're being propped up by government subsidies. It's that ICE vehicle prices are being driven up to offset EV manufacture costs. It's that they're not even that green to begin with. It's not that EVs aren't cool, it's the principal of the matter. If EVs were so ****ing great we wouldn't need to have a thread where people needed to tell everyone about them. Except that's the whole point of driving an EV, so you can tell people about it.
aggieforester05 said:Kansas Kid said:ChemAg15 said:
It's the fact that EVs are being forced upon us like they're the greatest technological advancement in the last 100 years. It's that the government wants to take away the freedom to purchase an ICE vehicle. It's that they're being propped up by government subsidies. It's that ICE vehicle prices are being driven up to offset EV manufacture costs. It's that they're not even that green to begin with. It's not that EVs aren't cool, it's the principal of the matter. If EVs were so ****ing great we wouldn't need to have a thread where people needed to tell everyone about them. Except that's the whole point of driving an EV, so you can tell people about it.
I agree they should be a free market choice and not a forced mandate but I don't know where you are getting the idea they are driving up ICE car costs. Costs for new cars are up across the board even from brands with little/no ICE vehicles in the lineup.
Ford lost billions on EVs last year and an F150 with leather seats is now $65K. Those lost billions come from somewhere.
aggieforester05 said:Kansas Kid said:ChemAg15 said:
It's the fact that EVs are being forced upon us like they're the greatest technological advancement in the last 100 years. It's that the government wants to take away the freedom to purchase an ICE vehicle. It's that they're being propped up by government subsidies. It's that ICE vehicle prices are being driven up to offset EV manufacture costs. It's that they're not even that green to begin with. It's not that EVs aren't cool, it's the principal of the matter. If EVs were so ****ing great we wouldn't need to have a thread where people needed to tell everyone about them. Except that's the whole point of driving an EV, so you can tell people about it.
I agree they should be a free market choice and not a forced mandate but I don't know where you are getting the idea they are driving up ICE car costs. Costs for new cars are up across the board even from brands with little/no ICE vehicles in the lineup.
Ford lost billions on EVs last year and an F150 with leather seats is now $65K. Those lost billions come from somewhere.
Kansas Kid said:aggieforester05 said:Kansas Kid said:ChemAg15 said:
It's the fact that EVs are being forced upon us like they're the greatest technological advancement in the last 100 years. It's that the government wants to take away the freedom to purchase an ICE vehicle. It's that they're being propped up by government subsidies. It's that ICE vehicle prices are being driven up to offset EV manufacture costs. It's that they're not even that green to begin with. It's not that EVs aren't cool, it's the principal of the matter. If EVs were so ****ing great we wouldn't need to have a thread where people needed to tell everyone about them. Except that's the whole point of driving an EV, so you can tell people about it.
I agree they should be a free market choice and not a forced mandate but I don't know where you are getting the idea they are driving up ICE car costs. Costs for new cars are up across the board even from brands with little/no ICE vehicles in the lineup.
Ford lost billions on EVs last year and an F150 with leather seats is now $65K. Those lost billions come from somewhere.
I see someone didn't take Econ 101. Ford will charge the maximum price they can no matter it they are making or losing money. If companies could offset losses by just increasing price without fear of competitive responses, no one would go bankrupt.
aggieforester05 said:Kansas Kid said:aggieforester05 said:Kansas Kid said:ChemAg15 said:
It's the fact that EVs are being forced upon us like they're the greatest technological advancement in the last 100 years. It's that the government wants to take away the freedom to purchase an ICE vehicle. It's that they're being propped up by government subsidies. It's that ICE vehicle prices are being driven up to offset EV manufacture costs. It's that they're not even that green to begin with. It's not that EVs aren't cool, it's the principal of the matter. If EVs were so ****ing great we wouldn't need to have a thread where people needed to tell everyone about them. Except that's the whole point of driving an EV, so you can tell people about it.
I agree they should be a free market choice and not a forced mandate but I don't know where you are getting the idea they are driving up ICE car costs. Costs for new cars are up across the board even from brands with little/no ICE vehicles in the lineup.
Ford lost billions on EVs last year and an F150 with leather seats is now $65K. Those lost billions come from somewhere.
I see someone didn't take Econ 101. Ford will charge the maximum price they can no matter it they are making or losing money. If companies could offset losses by just increasing price without fear of competitive responses, no one would go bankrupt.
Sounds like you're the one that skipped ECON if you think businesses losses don't require capital to fund them. All of these companies are pouring money into EV R/D to keep up with egregious looming CAFE standards. Are F150s priced above and beyond what is necessary due to competitive forces? Likely but you'd have to be economically illiterate to believe that all of this very expensive EV development is being paid for with fairy farts and good intentions. Vehicle costs are up across the board for a variety of reasons, expense being one of them, all of those expenses are passed along to customers eventually.
You're not considering that ALL car companies are facing EV adoption costs. Ford can raise the price of an F-150 because all their competitors are facing the same headwinds. The price increases are not vehicle specific nor are they manufacturer specific. And yes, there are other factors increasing vehicle costs across the board but to say the forced adoption of EVs isn't a cost that gets passed onto the consumer is supremely ignorant.Kansas Kid said:aggieforester05 said:Kansas Kid said:aggieforester05 said:Kansas Kid said:ChemAg15 said:
It's the fact that EVs are being forced upon us like they're the greatest technological advancement in the last 100 years. It's that the government wants to take away the freedom to purchase an ICE vehicle. It's that they're being propped up by government subsidies. It's that ICE vehicle prices are being driven up to offset EV manufacture costs. It's that they're not even that green to begin with. It's not that EVs aren't cool, it's the principal of the matter. If EVs were so ****ing great we wouldn't need to have a thread where people needed to tell everyone about them. Except that's the whole point of driving an EV, so you can tell people about it.
I agree they should be a free market choice and not a forced mandate but I don't know where you are getting the idea they are driving up ICE car costs. Costs for new cars are up across the board even from brands with little/no ICE vehicles in the lineup.
Ford lost billions on EVs last year and an F150 with leather seats is now $65K. Those lost billions come from somewhere.
I see someone didn't take Econ 101. Ford will charge the maximum price they can no matter it they are making or losing money. If companies could offset losses by just increasing price without fear of competitive responses, no one would go bankrupt.
Sounds like you're the one that skipped ECON if you think businesses losses don't require capital to fund them. All of these companies are pouring money into EV R/D to keep up with egregious looming CAFE standards. Are F150s priced above and beyond what is necessary due to competitive forces? Likely but you'd have to be economically illiterate to believe that all of this very expensive EV development is being paid for with fairy farts and good intentions. Vehicle costs are up across the board for a variety of reasons, expense being one of them, all of those expenses are passed along to customers eventually.
I agree they need capital to fund this effort but if you think for a moment that Ford won't always price an F-150 at the highest the market will accept, you are the one dreaming. The EV investments are how they allocate the free cash flow they end up with but they can't get consumers to pay extra just because they are sustaining losses in another part of their business. For the car companies, they have stopped almost all R&D into new ICE vehicles so if you want to say EVs are stifling innovation in your F-150, I agree.
ChemAg15 said:You're not considering that ALL car companies are facing EV adoption costs. Ford can raise the price of an F-150 because all their competitors are facing the same headwinds. The price increases are not vehicle specific nor are they manufacturer specific. And yes, there are other factors increasing vehicle costs across the board but to say the forced adoption of EVs isn't a cost that gets passed onto the consumer is supremely ignorant.Kansas Kid said:aggieforester05 said:Kansas Kid said:aggieforester05 said:Kansas Kid said:ChemAg15 said:
It's the fact that EVs are being forced upon us like they're the greatest technological advancement in the last 100 years. It's that the government wants to take away the freedom to purchase an ICE vehicle. It's that they're being propped up by government subsidies. It's that ICE vehicle prices are being driven up to offset EV manufacture costs. It's that they're not even that green to begin with. It's not that EVs aren't cool, it's the principal of the matter. If EVs were so ****ing great we wouldn't need to have a thread where people needed to tell everyone about them. Except that's the whole point of driving an EV, so you can tell people about it.
I agree they should be a free market choice and not a forced mandate but I don't know where you are getting the idea they are driving up ICE car costs. Costs for new cars are up across the board even from brands with little/no ICE vehicles in the lineup.
Ford lost billions on EVs last year and an F150 with leather seats is now $65K. Those lost billions come from somewhere.
I see someone didn't take Econ 101. Ford will charge the maximum price they can no matter it they are making or losing money. If companies could offset losses by just increasing price without fear of competitive responses, no one would go bankrupt.
Sounds like you're the one that skipped ECON if you think businesses losses don't require capital to fund them. All of these companies are pouring money into EV R/D to keep up with egregious looming CAFE standards. Are F150s priced above and beyond what is necessary due to competitive forces? Likely but you'd have to be economically illiterate to believe that all of this very expensive EV development is being paid for with fairy farts and good intentions. Vehicle costs are up across the board for a variety of reasons, expense being one of them, all of those expenses are passed along to customers eventually.
I agree they need capital to fund this effort but if you think for a moment that Ford won't always price an F-150 at the highest the market will accept, you are the one dreaming. The EV investments are how they allocate the free cash flow they end up with but they can't get consumers to pay extra just because they are sustaining losses in another part of their business. For the car companies, they have stopped almost all R&D into new ICE vehicles so if you want to say EVs are stifling innovation in your F-150, I agree.
Also the statement "Ford will charge the maximum price they can no matter it they are making or losing money." is so wrong it hurts. Businesses don't last long if their prices are so high they lose money, nor do they last long if their prices are so low they can't meet the cost to produce their good/service.
Medaggie said:
The basic tenant of prices in a true free capitalistic economy, which there is none, comes down to supply vs demand. All companies at the end of the day try to maximize overall profit and not necessary maximize profit on an item.
If ford can make 10 Bil selling cars with a 5% margin, they would take this over 5Bil selling cars at a 100% margin.
Anyhow, these EV debates are crazy to me. If you like one, buy it. If you don't, then don't but no need to trash a very viable options for many if not most drivers.
Someone should stuff Daniel in a locker pic.twitter.com/Mp4g0WRYCF
— Phil Labonte (@philthatremains) August 28, 2023
