TxAgswin said:

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If you make widgets, you pay tax for the materials (which has a labor component), the labor (which is labor), the sale, and then the profit. The commerce components aren't really taxes on labor, but taxes on trade. Interesting to think about.

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All wealth comes from labor. Even stuff that naturally occurs like trees, need to be chopped into lumber which requires labor. The sale is part of labor necessary to get somebody else to buy your product. Without people laboring, animals would swim and run uncaught and uneaten, water would sit there unconsumed, we'd be exposed to the elements, etc. Everybody would die. It takes labor to turn those natural resources into something that enables us to live longer than a few weeks. So in the end, since taxes are taxes on some form of wealth, either when it's earned, when it's spent, or whatever, it is really government taking part of the fruits of your labor.

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I think there are situations where conscription can be justified. I would think that the justification could be similar to the "stand your ground" laws regarding self-defense (obviously on a larger scale). Meaning, if your country is being attacked, on its own soil and you are literally defending your own citizens from a foreign invasion, that's a no-brainer for me. Every able-bodied citizen should be conscripted to protect the country.

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I agree.

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But a foreign war is a tougher sell. I think those situations should be left to professional soldiers.

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I think the best example is WW2. The Japanese wiped out a big chunk of our entire pacific fleet. Germany was crushing everybody it it's path and they declared war on us. Either front would have been a lot to handle, but we were facing two such fronts at once. They didn't know at the time, that we would be able to basically outproduce the rest of the world combined. It was completely understandable for people to think the homeland was in real danger. Since our professional army was nowhere near the scale that it needed to be to fight that war when it started, it made sense that we would draft people for it, even though almost all of our fighting was on foreign soil. However, I would not draft right away, since if enough people enlisted on their own, then we wouldn't need a draft. But if there was a shortfall, then that is a case where the draft would be necessary.

But for Vietnam, a draft made no sense. Our homeland was never in danger. Even in Afghanistan it didn't make sense for a draft even though they attacked us on our own soil, since our professional army was up to the task.

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Also, what would a conscripted U.S. army look like? Go to a Wal-Mart and tell me if you would feel comfortable with a single person in that place next to you with a live weapon in his hand. I could see a bunch of out-of-shape, lazy kids who don't have the discipline to hold down a job would actually endanger the lives of our soldiers that know what they're doing.

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Maybe relegate them to supply or doing jobs at home to replace those who go fight. Of course, those who do go fight, should be paid much better than those who do not. Even if they were draftees. There has been draftees who won the Medal of Honor, so they aren't all worthless. Those dudes are 10x the man I am, that's for sure.

Aggie4Life02 said:

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C@LAg said:

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Aggie4Life02 said:

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TAMUallen said:

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Aggie4Life02 said:

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C@LAg said:

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Aggie4Life02 said:

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End Selective Service.

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better yet, add women to it.

had a good chance of passing until republicans ****ed it up.

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Why the F would you add women to it. Worst idea ever.

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Because trans now exist and everything is about equality. Shouldn't be males only to become bullet catchers

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The draft is the worst form of slavery. We should aim to reduce slavery, not make women slavery more prevalent for the sake of equality.

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that is seriously the dumbest take, on any topic, posted on this site in a long time.

it is not "slavery". it is service to your country and your fellow countryman. and you still have all your rights.

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No it's slavery. Involuntary servitude…

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Nah. You can always claim bone spurs.

eric76 said:

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Aggie4Life02 said:

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C@LAg said:

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Aggie4Life02 said:

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TAMUallen said:

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Aggie4Life02 said:

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C@LAg said:

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Aggie4Life02 said:

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End Selective Service.

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better yet, add women to it.

had a good chance of passing until republicans ****ed it up.

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Why the F would you add women to it. Worst idea ever.

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Because trans now exist and everything is about equality. Shouldn't be males only to become bullet catchers

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The draft is the worst form of slavery. We should aim to reduce slavery, not make women slavery more prevalent for the sake of equality.

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that is seriously the dumbest take, on any topic, posted on this site in a long time.

it is not "slavery". it is service to your country and your fellow countryman. and you still have all your rights.

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No it's slavery. Involuntary servitude…

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Nah. You can always claim bone spurs.

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Or made up asthma.

Funky Winkerbean said:

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Aggie4Life02 said:

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Funky Winkerbean said:

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C@LAg said:

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Aggie4Life02 said:

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TAMUallen said:

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Aggie4Life02 said:

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C@LAg said:

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Aggie4Life02 said:

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End Selective Service.

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better yet, add women to it.

had a good chance of passing until republicans ****ed it up.

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Why the F would you add women to it. Worst idea ever.

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Because trans now exist and everything is about equality. Shouldn't be males only to become bullet catchers

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The draft is the worst form of slavery. We should aim to reduce slavery, not make women slavery more prevalent for the sake of equality.

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that is seriously the dumbest take, on any topic, posted on this site in a long time.

it is not "slavery". it is service to your country and your fellow countryman. and you still have all your rights.

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And they pay you

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What good is pay when you're dead?

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What good is discussing this with you when you move the goalposts anytime your objections are clarified?

For the record, it's called duty. That's why you sign up. Preserve the livelihood of those that come after us. Concepts that are foreign to the selfish.

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Plus, You are disqualified for receiving financial aid in college if you have not signed up for selective service.

Imagine the TikToks if we had a draft.

Make politicians kids serve on the frontlines

Thrax said:

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Make politicians kids serve on the frontlines

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FTFY

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I think the best example is WW2. The Japanese wiped out a big chunk of our entire pacific fleet. Germany was crushing everybody it it's path and they declared war on us. Either front would have been a lot to handle, but we were facing two such fronts at once. They didn't know at the time, that we would be able to basically outproduce the rest of the world combined. It was completely understandable for people to think the homeland was in real danger. Since our professional army was nowhere near the scale that it needed to be to fight that war when it started, it made sense that we would draft people for it, even though almost all of our fighting was on foreign soil. However, I would not draft right away, since if enough people enlisted on their own, then we wouldn't need a draft. But if there was a shortfall, then that is a case where the draft would be necessary.

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Yeah, WW2 was kind of a hybrid for the defend the homeland conscription justification since our homeland was attacked, but not occupied. Japan kind of made it a moot point anyhow. I don't think they had any trouble finding volunteers to enlist after Pearl Harbor.

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But for Vietnam, a draft made no sense. Our homeland was never in danger.

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Totally agree. Not only was implementing the draft there hard to justify, but it was also insanely short-sided. I think it could be reasonably argued that implementing that draft created a ripple effect that caused domestic strains that lasted for decades after the war itself was over.

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Even in Afghanistan it didn't make sense for a draft even though they attacked us on our own soil, since our professional army was up to the task.

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Wasn't technically Afghanistan that attacked us on our own soil. Sure there were plenty of Al Queda in Afghanistan, but the terrorists were mostly Saudi-based. But we couldn't very well attack them. Where would we have launched our invasion from?

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Maybe relegate them to supply or doing jobs at home to replace those who go fight. Of course, those who do go fight, should be paid much better than those who do not. Even if they were draftees. There has been draftees who won the Medal of Honor, so they aren't all worthless. Those dudes are 10x the man I am, that's for sure.

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Yeah, I guess if it's a global war, there's plenty of **** that needs to be done.

How long would it take to provide somebody off the street with zero military experience enough training to actually go into combat? "Here's a rifle, kid. Shoot it at the bad guys. Welcome to the Army." That would be a bad idea.

I'm assuming they would all go to the Army? Would draftees that are already pilots get put in the Air Force?

"So, this here plane is exactly like the twin-engine Cessna you're trained on. Only difference is this plane is a little bit faster. 1,500 MPH has a tad different feel than 200, so that will take some getting used to. Oh, and it has a laser-guided missile system, you can fly it to the stratosphere if you want, and sometimes we're going to ask you to land it on a boat in the middle of the ocean. So a bit of a learning curve on those things as well. Oh, and it's worth mentioning, this aircraft costs the U.S. taxpayer more than what the average American earns in a lifetime, so try to bring her back in one piece. Happy flying pilot."

TxAgswin said:

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I think the best example is WW2. The Japanese wiped out a big chunk of our entire pacific fleet. Germany was crushing everybody it it's path and they declared war on us. Either front would have been a lot to handle, but we were facing two such fronts at once. They didn't know at the time, that we would be able to basically outproduce the rest of the world combined. It was completely understandable for people to think the homeland was in real danger. Since our professional army was nowhere near the scale that it needed to be to fight that war when it started, it made sense that we would draft people for it, even though almost all of our fighting was on foreign soil. However, I would not draft right away, since if enough people enlisted on their own, then we wouldn't need a draft. But if there was a shortfall, then that is a case where the draft would be necessary.

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Yeah, WW2 was kind of a hybrid for the defend the homeland conscription justification since our homeland was attacked, but not occupied. Japan kind of made it a moot point anyhow. I don't think they had any trouble finding volunteers to enlist after Pearl Harbor.

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Actually, most don't realize this, but 61.2% of the military was drafted in WW2 and only 38.8% were volunteers. A larger percentage were drafted in WW2 than Vietnam. Only 25% were drafted in Vietnam.

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But for Vietnam, a draft made no sense. Our homeland was never in danger.

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Totally agree. Not only was implementing the draft there hard to justify, but it was also insanely short-sided. I think it could be reasonably argued that implementing that draft created a ripple effect that caused domestic strains that lasted for decades after the war itself was over.

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Agree.

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Even in Afghanistan it didn't make sense for a draft even though they attacked us on our own soil, since our professional army was up to the task.

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Wasn't technically Afghanistan that attacked us on our own soil. Sure there were plenty of Al Queda in Afghanistan, but the terrorists were mostly Saudi-based. But we couldn't very well attack them. Where would we have launched our invasion from?

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Well Afghanistan was protecting OBL. So it made sense to attack there. But again, there would have been no reason to draft anybody.

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Maybe relegate them to supply or doing jobs at home to replace those who go fight. Of course, those who do go fight, should be paid much better than those who do not. Even if they were draftees. There has been draftees who won the Medal of Honor, so they aren't all worthless. Those dudes are 10x the man I am, that's for sure.

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Yeah, I guess if it's a global war, there's plenty of **** that needs to be done.

How long would it take to provide somebody off the street with zero military experience enough training to actually go into combat? "Here's a rifle, kid. Shoot it at the bad guys. Welcome to the Army." That would be a bad idea.

I'm assuming they would all go to the Army? Would draftees that are already pilots get put in the Air Force?

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I think you draft people, and ask them where they want to go and put them there if it makes sense. Like you wouldn't give a 19 year old McDonalds employee a pilot slot. But maybe somebody with 500 hours already. If they chose combat, they should earn benefits that non-combat soldiers do not earn.

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"So, this here plane is exactly like the twin-engine Cessna you're trained on. Only difference is this plane is a little bit faster. 1,500 MPH has a tad different feel than 200, so that will take some getting used to. Oh, and it has a laser-guided missile system, you can fly it to the stratosphere if you want, and sometimes we're going to ask you to land it on a boat in the middle of the ocean. So a bit of a learning curve on those things as well. Oh, and it's worth mentioning, this aircraft costs the U.S. taxpayer more than what the average American earns in a lifetime, so try to bring her back in one piece. Happy flying pilot."

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In reality, I think we got plenty of pilots. And if we start losing them, then that implies we are losing planes. It's not like WW2 where we built 300,000 planes in 4 years. Both planes and pilots are more difficult to replace.

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Actually, most don't realize this, but 61.2% of the military was drafted in WW2 and only 38.8% were volunteers. A larger percentage were drafted in WW2 than Vietnam. Only 25% were drafted in Vietnam.

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No kidding? That's shocking. I always assumed the WW2 volunteer number was super high because of how they romanticize it in movies and stuff.

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In reality, I think we got plenty of pilots. And if we start losing them, then that implies we are losing planes. It's not like WW2 where we built 300,000 planes in 4 years. Both planes and pilots are more difficult to replace.

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That's a good point.

I wonder how much the use of drones has affected the need for manned aircraft. I got some pilot buddies who love to sit around and talk about fighter jets and the few constants I've picked up are that the jets and the pilots are badass and can do **** that a layperson like me can't really comprehend - and it costs a ton of money to manufacture and operate that equipment. Even by like U.S. defense budget standards, those numbers are eye-popping.

TxAgswin said:

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Actually, most don't realize this, but 61.2% of the military was drafted in WW2 and only 38.8% were volunteers. A larger percentage were drafted in WW2 than Vietnam. Only 25% were drafted in Vietnam.

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No kidding? That's shocking. I always assumed the WW2 volunteer number was super high because of how they romanticize it in movies and stuff.

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Yeah I was surprised when I first read that.

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In reality, I think we got plenty of pilots. And if we start losing them, then that implies we are losing planes. It's not like WW2 where we built 300,000 planes in 4 years. Both planes and pilots are more difficult to replace.

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That's a good point.

I wonder how much the use of drones has affected the need for manned aircraft. I got some pilot buddies who love to sit around and talk about fighter jets and the few constants I've picked up are that the jets and the pilots are badass and can do **** that a layperson like me can't really comprehend - and it costs a ton of money to manufacture and operate that equipment. Even by like U.S. defense budget standards, those numbers are eye-popping.

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I think of modern piloting as being like chefs. Where they are handling the a bunch of dishes, grills, and ovens at the same time. As much as pilots tend to think otherwise, it's not about Chuck Yeager stick and throttle skills anymore. It's about processing a lot of information quickly and not getting "behind" the airplane as you do your mission.

TxAgswin said:

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Actually, most don't realize this, but 61.2% of the military was drafted in WW2 and only 38.8% were volunteers. A larger percentage were drafted in WW2 than Vietnam. Only 25% were drafted in Vietnam.

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No kidding? That's shocking. I always assumed the WW2 volunteer number was super high because of how they romanticize it in movies and stuff.

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There were still 5M+ volunteers. The sheer number of people in the armed forces during WWII is mind-boggling.

A lot to read and a lot to digest here but I feel the need to clarify a couple of things here related to my experience. There was a draft in Vietnam and ww2 and desert storm/desert shield and it still exists today however it is gone about differently today.

In ww2 my grandpa and his brother were drafted and served - one a pilot MIA in the pacific and memorialized in the punch bowl in Hawaii the other a forward observer for artillery in Germany survived and passed away at 94.

In Vietnam there was a draft as my dad went but my uncle didn't who was in college at the time. There were plenty of exemptions for kids in college and I still remember as a little kid my dad telling me often that he should have went to college. There was a lot of press covering issues about only poor and immigrant people being drafted.

I was in army 88-90 went to college after then in 1991 Was in college and got called out of college to serve in desert storm/shield. So I was what was called an irr soldier - involuntary ready reserve. When you sign up with the military you sign up for eight years and get to pick how many are active. I choose two active thinking I would never get picked to go to war. I just wanted the g.I. Bill to go to college.

Well hell I should've went to Vegas as I was picked. All of the feelings about the Vietnam war draft were brought up in media so in order for the politicians to not institute a draft they called in the irr soldiers (those with time left in their eight years). First time that the pentagon had done that and the politicians got their war, escaped arguements about poor people - rich people and all others going or not going to war. They also made all the national guard units active to handle paperwork shipping logistics, etc as another part of avoiding the draft issue.

Now 125,000 of us were irr soldiers that were recalled and supposed to go. I gotta tell you that in the barracks the first night at ft benning in 1991, the barracks were full but each night the attendance dropped. Scared individuals left in the middle of the night. Later after the war they were pardoned by the same govt that called them up. A slap in the face to all of us that served.

Long story short: there is a draft still in place and always will be but there are about 8 million irr soldiers that would be gobbled up before a "draft goes into place. There will be no safe hiding anymore but if a draft was called I would recommend that my son or daughter go into the coast guard as their duty. I would be afraid for them as any parent I think would be.

I am torn on the females going into the draft as I have a daughter. In ww2 women were the backbone of America as they took jobs that men were at before they were drafted. America can't send everyone.

Now is that "males" 18-25 only, or does that include the 752 other species of human we have here in the ole US of A?

BLSD said:

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species of human

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aTmAg said:

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Actually, most don't realize this, but 61.2% of the military was drafted in WW2 and only 38.8% were volunteers. A larger percentage were drafted in WW2 than Vietnam. Only 25% were drafted in Vietnam.

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In an report ont he draft by Cato in the early to mid 1980s, they said that in case we go to war, there would be plenty of early volunteers, probably more than we are set up to send to boot camp. It takes time to ramp up going into war and by the time we ramped up to handle more than just the volunteers, we would have plenty of time to create a draft.

The draft in Vietnam was kind of funny. I know one person who was drafted in spite of being about 30 pounds over the max and another person who was not drafted because he was 8 pounds over the max. Both were well above the average draft age.

Another thing about the draft is that the draftees range all over the place in terms of skill and intelligence. In World War II, it was largely a war of numbers. A draft worked fine for that.

Today's military, on the other hand, is one of technology. The military needs people who can read and understand technical manuals. A draft wouldn't work so well for that.

Getting called up from the IRR is NOT the Draft.

This is the fear tactic the National Guard uses to keep you in a Unit going to drill as you finish up your reserve component obligation.

And more importantly, the amount of time required to turn a draftee into a soldier versus the length of a prolong conflict required, the numbers don't add up for ever drafting anybody.

And if America was really down on its luck and needed to defend against the Cuban Paratroopers from the Patrick Swayze version of Red Dawn, it would be old farts like me who are handy with the steel and know basic military Company level / Battalion level tactics who would make the difference defending our homeland. Not some Covid masked kid who just put down his video game controller, his can of Monster and can barely bench press the bar.

The US didn't institute the draft for the Vietnam War, they had already been drafting for the military for years prior to that. Even Elvis was drafted.

HollywoodBQ said:

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Getting called up from the IRR is NOT the Draft.

This is the fear tactic the National Guard uses to keep you in a Unit going to drill as you finish up your reserve component obligation.

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I didn't say the irr was the draft. It is being used as a buffer between the active military and the draft and the first time it was used was desert storm or desert shield. It has been used nine times since 1991.

I was not in a national guard unit.

I was active army 11b. Infantry. Served my two years and got out. (Yes you can serve two years active duty. Any increments of two years when you sign the enlistment with an overall umbrella of 8 years) Then got called back in under irr status which the govt implemented for the first time in history in 1991. So went back into the army after being a civilian for 7 months. I was with other former army actives - some were dentists, lawyers, plumbers etc nobody was in the national guard. In my recall unit we were all 11b former active duty. Then we were shipped to Saudi Arabia Arabia and then to specific units mostly Bradley fighting vehicles and the 101 and 82nd.

Since 1991 the irr has been used nine times. Mostly if not all in Afghanistan.

All the national guard units that were called up were exactly that - activated national guard and then they were deactivated after the war and went back to being a weekend warrior. I went back to being a civilian again. I have two dd214's.

The 1970s-80s had them on radio and referenced "getting drafted" after the draft was gone.

Wow, the commercial I saw was no where near as inciting to go sign up! You're right, I am not old enough for that commercial