CanyonAg77 said:

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My wife and I are both pilots and most flight instructors ( military or civilian) or FAA check pilots will tell you that in many instances females are much better pilots than men...... reason? The macho image is usually not a factor.

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Speaking in generalities, men grow up using force to get their way. Women don't have the raw strength, so they have to think their way through problems.

Look at equestrian, for instance. A guy riding a horse that is not doing what he wants, he's likely to yank harder on the reins, or kick, or otherwise force the horse to his will. A woman doesn't have the strength to do that, so she has to convince the horse to do what she wants, using cues that don't take raw strength.

Translated to aircraft, a woman is more likely to figure out how to manipulate controls the right way, rather than simply using brute force.

My theory, agree or don't.

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I disagree.

In my decades of work I have never dealt with a single female test pilot. I'm not saying there aren't any, but there are certainly a tiny minority. Our test pilots tend to have technical backgrounds since we need them to be able to deduce and diagnose problems at real-time. It's nothing about being "gentle" or anything like that. So test pilots tend to have technical engineering, physics, and mathematics backgrounds. Yet women famously avoid STEM fields.

It's the same aversion to technical fields that makes them less likely to have the necessary background to deduce the mathematical nature of what is going on in flight.

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we need them to be able to deduce and diagnose problems at real-time. It's nothing about being "gentle" or anything like that.

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Gee, almost exactly what I said. I didn't say women were more gentle, said that men try to use force, women tend to deduce and diagnose, because they don't have force

CanyonAg77 said:

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we need them to be able to deduce and diagnose problems at real-time. It's nothing about being "gentle" or anything like that.

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Gee, almost exactly what I said. I didn't say women were more gentle, said that men try to use force, women tend to deduce and diagnose, because they don't have force

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Except that more men than women gravitate towards fields that require deduction. If your theory was correct, then STEM would be dominated by women rather than men since it would extend to that too.

In reality, very few things in life that can be solved by exerting human level force. Professional sports and hand to hand combat are about it. After all, a weak person with a backhoe will always outproduce even the strongest man with a shovel. Men also dominate as heads of corporations where physical labor is the farthest thing from their minds.

Nobody has force in an airplane. At least not in modern airplanes

GAC06 said:

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Nobody has force in an airplane. At least not in modern airplanes

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Well, TECHNICALLY, in the F-16, they do...since the stick uses force transducers, not physical movement, to determine command inputs...(yes, the F-16 stick DOES move, but that movement does not translate into command input - it's there for tactile purposes for the pilot)

I assume the F-22 and F-35 use the same concept or something similar.

The Dirty Sock said:

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The struggle is real

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Got coffee out the nose on this one.

Absolutely outstanding work.

This is the best answer I was waiting for.

Ag with kids said:

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Arrakis ecologist said:

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Women can handle higher Gs better than men because of body shape. Their CG is below the waist, a man's is above the waist. This results in a difference in how likely they are to pass out at high Gs. This is also the reason most early test pilots and astronauts were shorter men.

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I knew a number of F-16 pilots and they were all short guys like me (5'7"). Kinda surprised me at the beginning because I'd always had the view of the big fighter jock in mind.

Now, I know a LOT of helicopter pilots and a lot of them are BIG guys (one VP at my last company had Mongo as his callsign and it fit him quite well). But, then they're not going through the Gs that a fighter pilot would get.

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Pilot's are short b/c the cockpits are small. Also, tall people don't do well in ejections. I think the height limit for the Navy in the 90's was like 6'-0". It had nothing to do with g-forces.

agracer said:

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Ag with kids said:

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Arrakis ecologist said:

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Women can handle higher Gs better than men because of body shape. Their CG is below the waist, a man's is above the waist. This results in a difference in how likely they are to pass out at high Gs. This is also the reason most early test pilots and astronauts were shorter men.

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I knew a number of F-16 pilots and they were all short guys like me (5'7"). Kinda surprised me at the beginning because I'd always had the view of the big fighter jock in mind.

Now, I know a LOT of helicopter pilots and a lot of them are BIG guys (one VP at my last company had Mongo as his callsign and it fit him quite well). But, then they're not going through the Gs that a fighter pilot would get.

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Pilot's are short b/c the cockpits are small. Also, tall people don't do well in ejections. I think the height limit for the Navy in the 90's was like 6'-0". It had nothing to do with g-forces.

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I did simulation for a living, so I've been in F-16 and F-18 simulator cabs...they ARE a tight fit...and I'm not a big guy.

Air Force standards, though you can get a waiver, are from 5'4" to 6'5". Sitting height 34 to 40 inches.

Speaking of a tight fit, tour a WWII aircraft at an air show near you. Those were designed when the male population was much shorter and a heck of a lot skinnier.

CanyonAg77 said:

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Air Force standards, though you can get a waiver, are from 5'4" to 6'5". Sitting height 34 to 40 inches.

Speaking of a tight fit, tour a WWII aircraft at an air show near you. Those were designed when the male population was much shorter and a heck of a lot skinnier.

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I remember Chad Henning, who played for the Cowboys, was something like 6'5" when he got out of the USAFA and went to pilot school.

He was only eligible for a few planes IIRC and ended up in the A-10 because of that...

agracer said:

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Ag with kids said:

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Arrakis ecologist said:

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Women can handle higher Gs better than men because of body shape. Their CG is below the waist, a man's is above the waist. This results in a difference in how likely they are to pass out at high Gs. This is also the reason most early test pilots and astronauts were shorter men.

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I knew a number of F-16 pilots and they were all short guys like me (5'7"). Kinda surprised me at the beginning because I'd always had the view of the big fighter jock in mind.

Now, I know a LOT of helicopter pilots and a lot of them are BIG guys (one VP at my last company had Mongo as his callsign and it fit him quite well). But, then they're not going through the Gs that a fighter pilot would get.

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Pilot's are short b/c the cockpits are small. Also, tall people don't do well in ejections. I think the height limit for the Navy in the 90's was like 6'-0". It had nothing to do with g-forces.

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Pilots aren't especially short or tall but it's a myth that it's mostly short guys in fighter/attack cockpits. Myself and the guys I know are normal height.

CanyonAg77 said:

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Air Force standards, though you can get a waiver, are from 5'4" to 6'5". Sitting height 34 to 40 inches.

Speaking of a tight fit, tour a WWII aircraft at an air show near you. Those were designed when the male population was much shorter and a heck of a lot skinnier.

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When I was at an airshow in the Czech Republic (it was for work), we had some B-52 pilots come by and we let them fly our AH-1Z simulator.

Turns out one of them was an Ag and he told me to come by and get a tour of their aircraft. It was bad ass...but quite a tight fit, too.

I know, not WWII, but...not long after that.

GAC06 said:

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agracer said:

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Ag with kids said:

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Arrakis ecologist said:

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Women can handle higher Gs better than men because of body shape. Their CG is below the waist, a man's is above the waist. This results in a difference in how likely they are to pass out at high Gs. This is also the reason most early test pilots and astronauts were shorter men.

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I knew a number of F-16 pilots and they were all short guys like me (5'7"). Kinda surprised me at the beginning because I'd always had the view of the big fighter jock in mind.

Now, I know a LOT of helicopter pilots and a lot of them are BIG guys (one VP at my last company had Mongo as his callsign and it fit him quite well). But, then they're not going through the Gs that a fighter pilot would get.

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Pilot's are short b/c the cockpits are small. Also, tall people don't do well in ejections. I think the height limit for the Navy in the 90's was like 6'-0". It had nothing to do with g-forces.

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Pilots aren't especially short or tall but it's a myth that it's mostly short guys in fighter/attack cockpits. Myself and the guys I know are normal height.

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Normal height is 5'10".

You're a giant freak.

I may be a freak but I'm no giant

GAC06 said:

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I may be a freak but I'm no giant

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I'm 5'7", Shrek!

Your callsign was FeeFiFoFum, wasn't it?

3 up or three down from average is acceptable

GAC06 said:

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3 up or three down from average is acceptable

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I thought that was the end of an inning?

I can assure you that an F-35 cockpit is tight. I'm 6'-0" 210 lb and it is snug. I really do not know what the upper height limit is. The seat adjusts and there is a minimum distance the top of the pilot's head has to be from the det cord. This is for the pilot's safety from the detonation of the escape system and from crown bird strikes.

Arrakis ecologist said:

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Women can handle higher Gs better than men because of body shape. Their CG is below the waist, a man's is above the waist. This results in a difference in how likely they are to pass out at high Gs. This is also the reason most early test pilots and astronauts were shorter men.

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Again, this is incorrect. Women weigh less than men at any given height assuming both are in shape. Weight is heavily positively correlated with resistance to g-forced. Stop repeating this garbage myth.

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/3753357/

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Covariance analysis controlling for differences in tolerance due to age, height, weight, and activity status revealed the women to have marginally lower tolerance; the analysis also identified height as a factor having a strong negative influence on G tolerance, and weight as having a positive influence. When the women were matched only by height to the men in the comparison group, the women's mean G tolerances were significantly lower than the men's.

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CanyonAg77 said:

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My wife and I are both pilots and most flight instructors ( military or civilian) or FAA check pilots will tell you that in many instances females are much better pilots than men...... reason? The macho image is usually not a factor.

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Speaking in generalities, men grow up using force to get their way. Women don't have the raw strength, so they have to think their way through problems.

Look at equestrian, for instance. A guy riding a horse that is not doing what he wants, he's likely to yank harder on the reins, or kick, or otherwise force the horse to his will. A woman doesn't have the strength to do that, so she has to convince the horse to do what she wants, using cues that don't take raw strength.

Translated to aircraft, a woman is more likely to figure out how to manipulate controls the right way, rather than simply using brute force.

My theory, agree or don't.

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Male spatial awareness is on the whole superior as is male hand/eye coordination. Given how men, at the same height, have increased resistance to g-forces, it stands to reason that men would likely be naturally better pilots.

I view fighter pilots similar to race car drivers. Yeah there are a very small amount of women who can do it but it's going to be such a small amount of the population that the time and effort spent recruiting them probably isn't going to be worth it. Of course wasting money is the norm in our military now so nothing surprises me anymore.

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I know, not WWII, but...not long after that.

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The contract for the B-52 was issued in 1946, first flight in 1952, 70 years ago.

The F-16 was designed beginning in 1972, first flight 1974. So it was likely designed for the ergonomics of 50 years ago. I don't know the numbers, but I suspect we were a lot skinnier back, then, don't really know about height.

F-18, first flight 44 year ago.

Heck, even the F-22 and the F-35 had their first flights 25 and 22 years ago.

From the study you linked, you left out the following:

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G tolerances of 102 women and 139 men subjected to Standard Medical Evaluation (Medeval) G Profiles were compared. Unpaired t-tests revealed no significant difference between the women and men in either relaxed or straining G tolerance. Covariance analysis controlling for differences in tolerance due to age, height, weight, and activity status revealed the women to have marginally lower tolerance;

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On Standard Training G Profiles 88% of 24 women and 80% of 213 men completed the runs, but this difference was not significant. G tolerances of 47 women were measured on the Medeval Profiles both during and between menses, but no significant differences related to menstruation were found. No important differences between women and men in signs or symptoms of G stress were observed

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CanyonAg77 said:

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From the study you linked, you left out the following:

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G tolerances of 102 women and 139 men subjected to Standard Medical Evaluation (Medeval) G Profiles were compared. Unpaired t-tests revealed no significant difference between the women and men in either relaxed or straining G tolerance. Covariance analysis controlling for differences in tolerance due to age, height, weight, and activity status revealed the women to have marginally lower tolerance;

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On Standard Training G Profiles 88% of 24 women and 80% of 213 men completed the runs, but this difference was not significant. G tolerances of 47 women were measured on the Medeval Profiles both during and between menses, but no significant differences related to menstruation were found. No important differences between women and men in signs or symptoms of G stress were observed

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Good job ignoring what I pointing to. All things being equal: height, fitness, etc. men have a higher tolerance of g forces due to the additional weight since male bodies have a greater percentage of muscle mass, which is in turn denser than fat.

You also aren't really reading the conclusion correctly. They said there was no difference in signs or symptoms, not tolerance. Further, you ignored that even considering height differences, women had lower overall tolerances.

From what I have read of people who have done those tests, this matches up with what they have said.

Geeez...

Guess I'm not surprised that my initial post sparked such a 7 page female combat debate. I do appreciate all the fighter jock inside baseball talk.

However, what surprises me is that none have asked why/how this was leaked in the first place. W/ so much media, have we been desensitized to the gravity of this leak?

Is it as simple as this was first f-35 crash at sea?

As I said before, was it a female pilot?

Are there chicoms aboard? After all this happened in S China Sea.

There were 7 sailors injured. Somebody's boy friend get hurt?

How does this get out while out in middle of the ocean?

Does navy not shut down social media/reddit on deployment?

Is the F-35 a POS?

Social media addiction?

Why was it leaked?

However, what surprises me is that none have asked why/how this was leaked in the first place. W/ so much media, have we been desensitized to the gravity of this leak? - That was addressed early on and someone's career is over.

Is it as simple as this was first f-35 crash at sea? - The Japanese CTOL lost was over water and the STOVL off the QE was at sea as well.

As I said before, was it a female pilot? - That is speculation.

How does this get out while out in middle of the ocean? - Someone likely e-mailed it.

Does navy not shut down social media/reddit on deployment? - I don't now.

Is the F-35 a POS? - No, it's the most capable all around was fighting platform we've ever deployed.

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Is the F-35 a POS?

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When doing carrier trials, the F-35 pilots were not only able to hit the exact cable they wanted time each and every time, the hook was hitting the exact same spot on the deck every single time and was starting to do damage to the deck. So they told the pilots to aim for other cables instead.

eric76 said:

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CanyonAg77 said:

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In fact, a woman's smaller body is less of a problem when dealing with G forces. A big guy with long legs is going to have more trouble holding blood in his core and toward his brain, than a small male or female.

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That's an excellent point.

I know someone who couldn't take the G forces and so hhe went to Vietnam as a helicopter rescue pilot for two or three trips on the Ticonderoga.

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Astronauts are all short for a reason

Probably leaked because people like to gossip. Once the video was texted/emailed to someone, it rapidly "went viral". Current navy dudes tell me they have WiFi onboard now so sailors have access to WhatsApp/Signal/etc during the cruise

This is driven by the extreme cost/pound to fire objects into space, as well as spacecraft size constraints.

Guardian Angel said:

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eric76 said:

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CanyonAg77 said:

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In fact, a woman's smaller body is less of a problem when dealing with G forces. A big guy with long legs is going to have more trouble holding blood in his core and toward his brain, than a small male or female.

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That's an excellent point.

I know someone who couldn't take the G forces and so hhe went to Vietnam as a helicopter rescue pilot for two or three trips on the Ticonderoga.

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Astronauts are all short for a reason

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75 or 76 inches max height

Here's another antidote from being 6'7" and riding in the back of an f16. I had to make a conscious effort to not let my knee push against the stick. That, the bobsled at park city, and an mri machine are probably the tightest spots I've been in.

cslifer said:

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Man you are batting 1000 today! First women shouldn't be fighter pilots because you have seen how they drive. We are far from the only country with female fighter pilots, England, Turkey, Poland, Canada have them just to name a few. Then you tack on the driving, when statistically men cause more accidents...
I googled it for you, Russia just graduated some and the head of the Chinese military aerobatic team was a woman at one point, so yes they do.

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Well, do they fly while talking on their cellphone and picking up the kids from soccer practice? If so, I say no!

Sounds like an indictment of your love life.

Seriously though I'm a little surprised you got an f-16 ride at 6'7"