Love Gun said:

---

bmks270 said:

---

Love Gun said:

---

Saw the video. The cops entered with a key at around 0645. They had both a knock and no-knock warrant. As soon as they breached, weapon lights lit up the room. They all screamed "Police! Search Warrant!", among other commands like to get on the ground. They kicked a sectional couch where a dude was covered in a blanket, possibly sleeping. He sat up, grabbed a very visible pistol off of the coffee table/ottoman thing, and they lit him up with three shots.

Now, the usual suspects have been clamoring that the decedent wasn't even on the warrant, and that he was likely confused by their commands. Not sure I've ever heard the new policy out there where police have to have a warrant to ventilate someone that goes for a weapon after you've made your presence known.

So....
Not on warrant = Irrelevant
Carry permit holder = Irrelevant
Early morning confusion = Irrelevant
Reach for gun when in a room full of cops that have made themselves and their mission known = Play stupid games

I'm sorry he lost his life, but he made his choice.

---

He was disoriented and ambushed by a swat team. He didn't make any choices. He had an unconscious reflex to the environmental stimulus. None of it was consciously processed.

---

Cool. Email that to the Soros bought DA up there. I'm sure they would appreciate your psychological analysis to convict officers that did nothing wrong.

---

Where did I say the officers should be convicted?
Everything may be legal, but that doesn't mean it is just.

The laws and procedures should be changed. That would be one positive outcome.

flakrat said:

---

I agree with the comments regarding no knock raids, they should be used sparingly.

---

Problem is that St. Paul police didn't want a no knock raid. Once Minneapolis PD got involved, they insisted on it.

i hope the cops go to prison for murder

azulAg said:

---

i hope the cops go to prison for murder

---

Did someone get murdered?

yea the guy the cops shot

ABATTBQ11 said:

---

flakrat said:

---

I agree with the comments regarding no knock raids, they should be used sparingly.

---

Problem is that St. Paul police didn't want a no knock raid. Once Minneapolis PD got involved, they insisted on it.

---

Anyone involved in issuing and organizing these no knock warrants should at a minimum Allen fired. They are costing lives. They are reckless and not necessary.

I'd consider criminal negligence if the facts support it.

bmks270 said:

---

Love Gun said:

---

Saw the video. The cops entered with a key at around 0645. They had both a knock and no-knock warrant. As soon as they breached, weapon lights lit up the room. They all screamed "Police! Search Warrant!", among other commands like to get on the ground. They kicked a sectional couch where a dude was covered in a blanket, possibly sleeping. He sat up, grabbed a very visible pistol off of the coffee table/ottoman thing, and they lit him up with three shots.

Now, the usual suspects have been clamoring that the decedent wasn't even on the warrant, and that he was likely confused by their commands. Not sure I've ever heard the new policy out there where police have to have a warrant to ventilate someone that goes for a weapon after you've made your presence known.

So....
Not on warrant = Irrelevant
Carry permit holder = Irrelevant
Early morning confusion = Irrelevant
Reach for gun when in a room full of cops that have made themselves and their mission known = Play stupid games

I'm sorry he lost his life, but he made his choice.

---

He was disoriented and ambushed by a swat team. He didn't make any choices. He had an unconscious reflex to the environmental stimulus. None of it was consciously processed.

There should be penalties for the people issuing and organizing these warrants when an innocent person is murdered. They should at a minimum be fired.

---

I'm curious how you know this.

ToHntortoFsh said:

---

Agreed with no knock raids, too many instances of the wrong house etc. If someone were to no knock my house I'd likely be shot because there is no expectation that police would bust my door down at 3am. Shouting police does not mean **** in that moment.

---

azulAg said:

---

yea the guy the cops shot

---

You mean the guy that died in a shooting that in most places would be clearly justified? Did the cop(s) that shot him "murder" him, or did they respond in kind to a threat that presented a weapon to them? Were they supposed to see the end of his gun? Were they to only shoot after being fired upon? What if it was a fake gun?

Hard to understand this liberal logic with the moving of goal posts after every police shooting. I guess you missed the one where two NYPD cops were killed in a house a couple of weeks ago, huh?

bmks270 said:

---

Love Gun said:

---

Saw the video. The cops entered with a key at around 0645. They had both a knock and no-knock warrant. As soon as they breached, weapon lights lit up the room. They all screamed "Police! Search Warrant!", among other commands like to get on the ground. They kicked a sectional couch where a dude was covered in a blanket, possibly sleeping. He sat up, grabbed a very visible pistol off of the coffee table/ottoman thing, and they lit him up with three shots.

Now, the usual suspects have been clamoring that the decedent wasn't even on the warrant, and that he was likely confused by their commands. Not sure I've ever heard the new policy out there where police have to have a warrant to ventilate someone that goes for a weapon after you've made your presence known.

So....
Not on warrant = Irrelevant
Carry permit holder = Irrelevant
Early morning confusion = Irrelevant
Reach for gun when in a room full of cops that have made themselves and their mission known = Play stupid games

I'm sorry he lost his life, but he made his choice.

---

He was disoriented and ambushed by a swat team. He didn't make any choices. He had an unconscious reflex to the environmental stimulus. None of it was consciously processed.

---

All of which is true, yet if that warrant was legal and the use of force passed legal muster, you've got a legal shooting and an ethical mess for the justice system. The cop doesn't know the person holding the gun is innocent and person holding the gun is too disoriented, as you point out, to consciously process what is happening other than a threat, which he may be conditioned to expect as being criminal given the frequency of violent crime in his local community.

comparing apples to oranges, no knock raid in the middle of the night to a double homicide police hit. and im not a liberal

azulAg said:

---

comparing apples to oranges, no knock raid in the middle of the night to a double homicide police hit. and im not a liberal

---

Well, you're saying that these cops "murdered" someone for following policy, and before any kind of due process. Hence, a very liberal opinion on the matter. Hey, if the shoe fits.

nice diversion from the discussion

Looks like a real bang up job. Some quality detective work for sure. Pin a medal in those cops. No knock their way into a residence where the ONLY person there isn't in the warrant.

fooz said:

---

ToHntortoFsh said:

---

Agreed with no knock raids, too many instances of the wrong house etc. If someone were to no knock my house I'd likely be shot because there is no expectation that police would bust my door down at 3am. Shouting police does not mean **** in that moment.

---

---

Criminals can also impersonate and shout "police!"

As far as I'm concerned if you haven't shown a badge and ID to execute a warrant you haven't properly identified yourself. Anyone can shout police and kick in a door.

bmks270 said:

---

fooz said:

---

ToHntortoFsh said:

---

Agreed with no knock raids, too many instances of the wrong house etc. If someone were to no knock my house I'd likely be shot because there is no expectation that police would bust my door down at 3am. Shouting police does not mean **** in that moment.

---

---

Criminals can also impersonate and shout "police!"

As far as I'm concerned if you haven't shown a badge and ID to execute a warrant you haven't properly identified yourself. Anyone can shout police and kick in a door.

---

Only they used a key to open the door.

littlebigman said:

---

bmks270 said:

---

Love Gun said:

---

Saw the video. The cops entered with a key at around 0645. They had both a knock and no-knock warrant. As soon as they breached, weapon lights lit up the room. They all screamed "Police! Search Warrant!", among other commands like to get on the ground. They kicked a sectional couch where a dude was covered in a blanket, possibly sleeping. He sat up, grabbed a very visible pistol off of the coffee table/ottoman thing, and they lit him up with three shots.

Now, the usual suspects have been clamoring that the decedent wasn't even on the warrant, and that he was likely confused by their commands. Not sure I've ever heard the new policy out there where police have to have a warrant to ventilate someone that goes for a weapon after you've made your presence known.

So....
Not on warrant = Irrelevant
Carry permit holder = Irrelevant
Early morning confusion = Irrelevant
Reach for gun when in a room full of cops that have made themselves and their mission known = Play stupid games

I'm sorry he lost his life, but he made his choice.

---

He was disoriented and ambushed by a swat team. He didn't make any choices. He had an unconscious reflex to the environmental stimulus. None of it was consciously processed.

There should be penalties for the people issuing and organizing these warrants when an innocent person is murdered. They should at a minimum be fired.

---

I'm curious how you know this.

---

If I kick in your door at 3am with a flashlight and gun in your face shouting, "Police! Get on the floor with your hands on your head!" are you really going to wake up from a dead sleep and say, "Sure thing officer"?

When someone is surprised in the middle of the night with a forced entry or armed individuals shouting commands at them, it is not unreasonable for them to misinterpret the situation and fight back. That's why no knock raids are dangerous and supposed to be used very sparingly. The problem is that they have almost become a default.

aggiehawg said:

---

bmks270 said:

---

fooz said:

---

ToHntortoFsh said:

---

Agreed with no knock raids, too many instances of the wrong house etc. If someone were to no knock my house I'd likely be shot because there is no expectation that police would bust my door down at 3am. Shouting police does not mean **** in that moment.

---

---

Criminals can also impersonate and shout "police!"

As far as I'm concerned if you haven't shown a badge and ID to execute a warrant you haven't properly identified yourself. Anyone can shout police and kick in a door.

---

Only they used a key to open the door.

---

That's beside the point.

aggiehawg said:

---

bmks270 said:

---

fooz said:

---

ToHntortoFsh said:

---

Agreed with no knock raids, too many instances of the wrong house etc. If someone were to no knock my house I'd likely be shot because there is no expectation that police would bust my door down at 3am. Shouting police does not mean **** in that moment.

---

---

Criminals can also impersonate and shout "police!"

As far as I'm concerned if you haven't shown a badge and ID to execute a warrant you haven't properly identified yourself. Anyone can shout police and kick in a door.

---

Only they used a key to open the door.

---

How would he, asleep, have been able to discern any audible difference (assuming there is any between jimmying and keying a lock)?

aggiehawg said:

---

bmks270 said:

---

fooz said:

---

ToHntortoFsh said:

---

Agreed with no knock raids, too many instances of the wrong house etc. If someone were to no knock my house I'd likely be shot because there is no expectation that police would bust my door down at 3am. Shouting police does not mean **** in that moment.

---

---

Criminals can also impersonate and shout "police!"

As far as I'm concerned if you haven't shown a badge and ID to execute a warrant you haven't properly identified yourself. Anyone can shout police and kick in a door.

---

Only they used a key to open the door.

---

And anyone can pick a lock, burst in, and shout police. Same difference.

St. Paul Pioneer Press:

" The Minneapolis Police Department restricted their use of "no knock" warrants following the killing of George Floyd in May 2020."

"Under the policy, which took effect in November 2020, officers usually must announce their presence as they enter, make periodic announcements while inside and give occupants reasonable time to respond. They're known as "entry with announcement" warrants. Judges can also sign warrants in high-risk situations that allow "unannounced entry," and they're generally handled by SWAT teams."

https://www.twincities.com/2022/02/04/st-paul-sought-knock-and-announce-search-warrant-but-minneapolis-wanted-no-knock-sources-say/

bmks270 said:

---

aggiehawg said:

---

bmks270 said:

---

fooz said:

---

ToHntortoFsh said:

---

Agreed with no knock raids, too many instances of the wrong house etc. If someone were to no knock my house I'd likely be shot because there is no expectation that police would bust my door down at 3am. Shouting police does not mean **** in that moment.

---

---

Criminals can also impersonate and shout "police!"

As far as I'm concerned if you haven't shown a badge and ID to execute a warrant you haven't properly identified yourself. Anyone can shout police and kick in a door.

---

Only they used a key to open the door.

---

That's beside the point.

---

Actually, that's an important point. How did they get the key?

ABATTBQ11 said:

---

littlebigman said:

---

bmks270 said:

---

Love Gun said:

---

Saw the video. The cops entered with a key at around 0645. They had both a knock and no-knock warrant. As soon as they breached, weapon lights lit up the room. They all screamed "Police! Search Warrant!", among other commands like to get on the ground. They kicked a sectional couch where a dude was covered in a blanket, possibly sleeping. He sat up, grabbed a very visible pistol off of the coffee table/ottoman thing, and they lit him up with three shots.

Now, the usual suspects have been clamoring that the decedent wasn't even on the warrant, and that he was likely confused by their commands. Not sure I've ever heard the new policy out there where police have to have a warrant to ventilate someone that goes for a weapon after you've made your presence known.

So....
Not on warrant = Irrelevant
Carry permit holder = Irrelevant
Early morning confusion = Irrelevant
Reach for gun when in a room full of cops that have made themselves and their mission known = Play stupid games

I'm sorry he lost his life, but he made his choice.

---

He was disoriented and ambushed by a swat team. He didn't make any choices. He had an unconscious reflex to the environmental stimulus. None of it was consciously processed.

There should be penalties for the people issuing and organizing these warrants when an innocent person is murdered. They should at a minimum be fired.

---

I'm curious how you know this.

---

If I kick in your door at 3am with a flashlight and gun in your face shouting, "Police! Get on the floor with your hands on your head!" are you really going to wake up from a dead sleep and say, "Sure thing officer"?

When someone is surprised in the middle of the night with a forced entry or armed individuals shouting commands at them, it is not unreasonable for them to misinterpret the situation and fight back. That's why no knock raids are dangerous and supposed to be used very sparingly. The problem is that they have almost become a default.

---

.

I honestly don't know what I would do because I'm not a criminal. I probably wouldn't grab a gun to arm myself against the police.

ToHntortoFsh said:

---

Agreed with no knock raids, too many instances of the wrong house etc. If someone were to no knock my house I'd likely be shot because there is no expectation that police would bust my door down at 3am. Shouting police does not mean **** in that moment.

---

This. If someone broke down my door at 3AM, I'm not sure I'd believe them just because they are yelling "POLICE, POLICE"....

No one broke down a door. They entered by using a key.

So for context, the nexus of the investigation was homicide in St Paul, so St Paul PD got the knock and announce warrant, but Minneapolis PD (jurisdiction of the apartment) demanded that St Paul PD get a no knock warrant, which they did.

and? what kind of argument is that to justify this

azulAg said:

---

and? what kind of argument is that to justify this

---

Just trying to keep this thread on track with the facts as we know them at this moment.

Fact: The officers used a key to open the door.

Irrelevant thread content, "If someone breaks down my door at three in the morning"...

aggiehawg said:

---

bmks270 said:

---

aggiehawg said:

---

bmks270 said:

---

fooz said:

---

ToHntortoFsh said:

---

Agreed with no knock raids, too many instances of the wrong house etc. If someone were to no knock my house I'd likely be shot because there is no expectation that police would bust my door down at 3am. Shouting police does not mean **** in that moment.

---

---

Criminals can also impersonate and shout "police!"

As far as I'm concerned if you haven't shown a badge and ID to execute a warrant you haven't properly identified yourself. Anyone can shout police and kick in a door.

---

Only they used a key to open the door.

---

That's beside the point.

---

Actually, that's an important point. How did they get the key?

---

Apartment manager?

edit added question mark

Comments on the The Root articles about this incident:

Quote:

---

send_in_the_drones
2/03/22 8:15pm
Per the released video they woke him from what appeared to be a deep sleep and when he peeled the blanket back to see who was there they saw he had a gun in his hand and just opened fire - the gun was never raised to shoot, he was simply holding it.
They also didn't knock. Or announce before entering - the first warning was when they were across the doorway.
They executed him.

---

Come one now! How would have to be awake to hold a gun.
[url=https://kinja.com/dariusraqqah][/url]

Quote:

---

Darius Raqqah
Locke's family confirmed via social media that he was licensed to carry.

The NRA might hold a march.

---

Confirm?
[url=https://kinja.com/kerning][/url]

Quote:

---

kerning

Quote:

---

Police have not confirmed if the warrant was issued for the victim.

---

According to the Star Tribune newspaper that I read as of this morning, the warrant wasn't meant for Amir Locke.

Quote:

---

The Star Tribune learned earlier Thursday that Locke, a Black man, was not the subject of the warrant. Interim Minneapolis police chief Amelia Huffman confirmed late Thursday that Locke was not named in the warrant. (source: Star Tribune)

---

Someone EFFED this up. AGAIN.
Gawd dammit, can't my city take a tucking break from all of these fatal stupidity...

---

Well when you defund the popo you are left with, well, you know.
[url=https://kinja.com/raineyb1013][/url]

Quote:

---

Raineyb1013, Misfit Black Girl Island Denizen
So basically the cherokee purple a--hole is slandering a dead man as a murder suspect, dude had the right to have a gun in his house with the requisite permit, cops busted down his tucking door for no reason and now he's dead because these a--holes are tucking cowards who think everyone Black is a suspect.

tucking Friday

---

What is a Cherokee purple?

aggiehawg said:

---

No one broke down a door. They entered by using a key.

---

does it really matter? they're in the home at 3AM unexpectedly shouting commands and I'm asleep. I don't give a **** how they got into my home, I just know they should not be there and I was sound asleep a few seconds ago.

I have multiple loaded guns in my home. I'm not sure how I would react to being woken up like this. I don't have any warrants, never have, never been to jail, nor do I sleep in fear of a break-in for any specific reason, but still. Hard to imagine how I would react. My first reaction might be to crap in my pajamas...

No knock warrants seem excessive and an easy fix to restrict. Kidnapping or something, maybe.

Should be nothing criminal here towards police. They were following the law as currently written. Civil to city, I could see it.

Oh, and I look forward to the day when we no longer hear from Benjamin Crump and his ilk of case chasers.

aggiehawg said:

---

bmks270 said:

---

aggiehawg said:

---

bmks270 said:

---

fooz said:

---

ToHntortoFsh said:

---

Agreed with no knock raids, too many instances of the wrong house etc. If someone were to no knock my house I'd likely be shot because there is no expectation that police would bust my door down at 3am. Shouting police does not mean **** in that moment.

---

---

Criminals can also impersonate and shout "police!"

As far as I'm concerned if you haven't shown a badge and ID to execute a warrant you haven't properly identified yourself. Anyone can shout police and kick in a door.

---

Only they used a key to open the door.

---

That's beside the point.

---

Actually, that's an important point. How did they get the key?

---

It's actually completely beside the point. Totally irrelevant to my assertion that they entered the home and did not show him their badges or ID. Therefore they did not properly identify themselves. Maybe that's acceptable in whatever procedure they have established, but for reasons already given, that anyone can easily shout police, it should not be considered sufficient.

The Root is trash so why in the hell would you add their garbage to this discussion?

TAMU1990 said:

---

ABATTBQ11 said:

---

littlebigman said:

---

bmks270 said:

---

Love Gun said:

---

Saw the video. The cops entered with a key at around 0645. They had both a knock and no-knock warrant. As soon as they breached, weapon lights lit up the room. They all screamed "Police! Search Warrant!", among other commands like to get on the ground. They kicked a sectional couch where a dude was covered in a blanket, possibly sleeping. He sat up, grabbed a very visible pistol off of the coffee table/ottoman thing, and they lit him up with three shots.

Now, the usual suspects have been clamoring that the decedent wasn't even on the warrant, and that he was likely confused by their commands. Not sure I've ever heard the new policy out there where police have to have a warrant to ventilate someone that goes for a weapon after you've made your presence known.

So....
Not on warrant = Irrelevant
Carry permit holder = Irrelevant
Early morning confusion = Irrelevant
Reach for gun when in a room full of cops that have made themselves and their mission known = Play stupid games

I'm sorry he lost his life, but he made his choice.

---

He was disoriented and ambushed by a swat team. He didn't make any choices. He had an unconscious reflex to the environmental stimulus. None of it was consciously processed.

There should be penalties for the people issuing and organizing these warrants when an innocent person is murdered. They should at a minimum be fired.

---

I'm curious how you know this.

---

If I kick in your door at 3am with a flashlight and gun in your face shouting, "Police! Get on the floor with your hands on your head!" are you really going to wake up from a dead sleep and say, "Sure thing officer"?

When someone is surprised in the middle of the night with a forced entry or armed individuals shouting commands at them, it is not unreasonable for them to misinterpret the situation and fight back. That's why no knock raids are dangerous and supposed to be used very sparingly. The problem is that they have almost become a default.

---

.

I honestly don't know what I would do because I'm not a criminal. I probably wouldn't grab a gun to arm myself against the police.

---

So you routinely have people waking you at 3am by sitting at you with flashlights and guns in your face? You know your default assumption and reaction would be that it's probably the police if that happened to you? Being a criminal or not has nothing to do with how you react to that. The entire point is that when a no knock raids is executed in the middle of the night, those it is executed on, criminal or not, do not have a reasonable ability to immediately process what is going on.