Fear InoculAg said:

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doubledog said:

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TXAGFAN said:

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No Spin Ag said:

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Which would conservatives be more welcoming to in their communities: Muslims who are 3rd generation and act and live in all ways as conservatives, they just pray to a different god, or liberals who go to a Christian/Catholic church?

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C) None of the above.

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The Catholic church is a Christian church, in fact the Catholic (now Roman/Orthodox/Armenian) was the first Christian church.

FYI Muslims pray to the same God as Christians.

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I love it when people make these ridiculous theological statements of fact. How the **** do you know which god Christians are praying to vs Muslims? This **** is hilarious.

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Anyone with even the most basic understanding of the origins of the Abrahamic religions will see they worship / pray to the same deity.

Let me know how accepting a Catholic church would be with a Pentecostal attending mass and speaking in tongues for half an hour. I know many who think Catholics are not Christians because they pray to the Virgin Mary. Which way is right? They are both claiming to be in communication with God through incredibly separate methods... more so than even Christian vs Islam if you think about it.

Fear InoculAg said:

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doubledog said:

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TXAGFAN said:

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No Spin Ag said:

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Which would conservatives be more welcoming to in their communities: Muslims who are 3rd generation and act and live in all ways as conservatives, they just pray to a different god, or liberals who go to a Christian/Catholic church?

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C) None of the above.

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The Catholic church is a Christian church, in fact the Catholic (now Roman/Orthodox/Armenian) was the first Christian church.

FYI Muslims pray to the same God as Christians.

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I love it when people make these ridiculous theological statements of fact. How the **** do you know which god Christians are praying to vs Muslims? This **** is hilarious.

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Are you saying that different Abrahamic religions all pray to different gods??

Well said!

fka ftc said:

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Get Off My Lawn said:

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Mohammad wanted to be a warlord so he cobbled together a religion to create his army. He pulled folks in by saying "your religion got some things right, but I've got the rest of the story for ya!" and then gave them zealous purpose. First - when he was attacking as a call to war, second - when he had territory as a call to peace. At all times, integrating the religion with the politics with his aspirations.

So no - they don't follow the same Abrahamic God. They follow the Joseph Smith of the ancient. Him cobbling together segments of familiar teachings to hoodwinked Zoroastrians, Jews, Pagans, & Christians doesn't mean he produced an accurate representation of God - he created a fiction that sound similar.

And due to the nature of their political + religious integration, they are only societally acceptable in small enough proportions that they are forced to integrate with non-muslims and are prevented from gaining power. The slippery slope is necessarily Sharia (along with the oppression of all infidels), so there is no potential for religious tolerance or coexistance once they achieve critical mass.

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Its a good thing that no "holy wars" were ever fought by the Christian church. Let's leave all that to the Muslims...? You cannot be serious with such an assessment given the Crusades and many other conflicts started in the name of Christianity.

Comparing Mohammad to Joseph Smith is just plain lazy. You reading news articles from 1844 to come up with this?

The world population of Muslims is expected to meet or exceed the world population of Christians within the next 50 years.

Muslims, Christians and Jews worship the same God but in different (and many substantially different) ways. Has God spoken directly to you and let you know all about Mohammed's intentions and that he denounces them and that 1+ billion of todays world population is on a path to hell by being Muslim?

Your comments on Muslims would indicate you discriminate against certain folks based on their religious beliefs. What a shame.

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Islam is and has been a doctrine/socioeconomic system of conquest and subjugation, and is not in any way related in practice or in their 'sacred' book/teachings to Judaism/Christianity.

I would much prefer liberal neighbors of any denomination vs. muslim ones who might become fundamentalized in any given month/year.

[Add to the conversation or don't post. -Staff]

nortex97 said:

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fka ftc said:

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Get Off My Lawn said:

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Mohammad wanted to be a warlord so he cobbled together a religion to create his army. He pulled folks in by saying "your religion got some things right, but I've got the rest of the story for ya!" and then gave them zealous purpose. First - when he was attacking as a call to war, second - when he had territory as a call to peace. At all times, integrating the religion with the politics with his aspirations.

So no - they don't follow the same Abrahamic God. They follow the Joseph Smith of the ancient. Him cobbling together segments of familiar teachings to hoodwinked Zoroastrians, Jews, Pagans, & Christians doesn't mean he produced an accurate representation of God - he created a fiction that sound similar.

And due to the nature of their political + religious integration, they are only societally acceptable in small enough proportions that they are forced to integrate with non-muslims and are prevented from gaining power. The slippery slope is necessarily Sharia (along with the oppression of all infidels), so there is no potential for religious tolerance or coexistance once they achieve critical mass.

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Its a good thing that no "holy wars" were ever fought by the Christian church. Let's leave all that to the Muslims...? You cannot be serious with such an assessment given the Crusades and many other conflicts started in the name of Christianity.

Comparing Mohammad to Joseph Smith is just plain lazy. You reading news articles from 1844 to come up with this?

The world population of Muslims is expected to meet or exceed the world population of Christians within the next 50 years.

Muslims, Christians and Jews worship the same God but in different (and many substantially different) ways. Has God spoken directly to you and let you know all about Mohammed's intentions and that he denounces them and that 1+ billion of todays world population is on a path to hell by being Muslim?

Your comments on Muslims would indicate you discriminate against certain folks based on their religious beliefs. What a shame.

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Islam is and has been a doctrine/socioeconomic system of conquest and subjugation, and is not in any way related in practice or in their 'sacred' book/teachings to Judaism/Christianity.

I would much prefer liberal neighbors of any denomination vs. muslim ones who might become fundamentalized in any given month/year.

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OP asked 3rd geration conservative Muslim Americans not someone who'd be radicalized.

Do you deny Islam, Judaism and Christianity are Abrahamic religions?

Are you saying Different religions of Abrahamic religions worship different gods?

Jayhawk said:

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HollywoodBQ said:

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Mr. AGSPRT04 said:

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doubledog said:

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FYI Muslims pray to the same God as Christians.

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Muslims pray to the God of the trinity, three in one? That's news to me.

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Muslims do believe that Jesus was a great man and he does have a role in their version of the end times.

Muslims I've talked to believe that Muslims and Christians believe in the same God. In fact, their prayer call states that they believe in one God - Allah and Mohammed is his prophet. He is the one God for the whole world, not for only Muslims.

That's my rough anecdotal translation. I've lived through more than 10,000 prayer calls in Saudi Arabia.

Here's a formal translation from this web site:
https://www.learnreligions.com/what-do-the-words-of-the-adhan-mean-in-english-2003812

Arabic transliteration of the adhan is as follows:

Quote:

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Allahu Akbar! Allahu Akbar! Allahu Akbar! Allahu Akbar!
Ashhadu an la ilaha illa Allah. Ashhadu an la ilaha illa Allah.
Ashadu anna Muhammadan Rasool Allah. Ashadu anna Muhammadan Rasool Allah.
Hayya 'ala-s-Salah. Hayya 'ala-s-Salah.
Hayya 'ala-l-Falah. Hayya 'ala-l-Falah.
Allahu Akbar! Allahu Akbar!
La ilaha illa Allah.

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The English translation of the adhan is:

Quote:

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God is Great! God is Great! God is Great! God is Great!
I bear witness that there is no god except the One God.
I bear witness that there is no god except the One God.
I bear witness that Muhammad is the messenger of God.
I bear witness that Muhammad is the messenger of God.
Hurry to the prayer. Hurry to the prayer.
Hurry to salvation. Hurry to salvation.
God is Great! God is Great!
There is no god except the One God.

---

The prayer calls do differ across the Middle East. When I was in Cairo, the prayer call sounded quite a bit different than what I was used to at home in the Eastern Province of Saudi Arabia.

Even this one from Riyadh sounds a lot different than the way they did it in my neighborhood. This one is much slower and much more subdued.

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Muslims believe Jesus will return on the last day (yom al-qiyama) to destroy the cross. They teach that Christ was not crucified, a worthless thief was substituted for him at the last instant and that Paul and the church fathers were evil anti-prophets who diluted Allah's message, and things were not set right until Muhammad revealed the true teachings. Muslims also use false purported commonalities when attempting to proselytize Christians and sow doubt in christian hearts about their faith. Muslims do not believe that men are created in the image of God, as Allah has no knowable corporeal form, therefore the Incarnation is anathema, and their civilizations reflect the different understanding of the source of human dignity. The Muslim 'Allah' is not the same God , who is God the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit.

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Would you say Mormons are wrong to believe Jesus visited America after the resurrection?

Is it wrong for Seventh day Adventists to keep Saturday Seventh day sabbath??

Do you believe your religion is the truth but not others and they're all wrong?

AggieDruggist89 said:

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Do you deny Islam, Judaism and Christianity are Abrahamic religions? "Abrahamic" religion is a relatively recent academic term and is perhaps does not have the strongly grounded theological significance which you attribute to it. Islam is a syncretic mixture of the Christian (primarily Nestorian), Jewish, and Arabian Pagan ideas prevalent in the Arabian Peninsula during and before the 6th century.

Are you saying Different religions of Abrahamic religions worship different gods? Yes. Christians worship a triune God whose three divine Persons include a physically incarnated man who entered space and time, this is radically different than the Muslim Allah.

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AggieDruggist89 said:

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Jayhawk said:

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HollywoodBQ said:

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Mr. AGSPRT04 said:

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doubledog said:

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FYI Muslims pray to the same God as Christians.

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Muslims pray to the God of the trinity, three in one? That's news to me.

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Muslims do believe that Jesus was a great man and he does have a role in their version of the end times.

Muslims I've talked to believe that Muslims and Christians believe in the same God. In fact, their prayer call states that they believe in one God - Allah and Mohammed is his prophet. He is the one God for the whole world, not for only Muslims.

That's my rough anecdotal translation. I've lived through more than 10,000 prayer calls in Saudi Arabia.

Here's a formal translation from this web site:
https://www.learnreligions.com/what-do-the-words-of-the-adhan-mean-in-english-2003812

Arabic transliteration of the adhan is as follows:

Quote:

---

Allahu Akbar! Allahu Akbar! Allahu Akbar! Allahu Akbar!
Ashhadu an la ilaha illa Allah. Ashhadu an la ilaha illa Allah.
Ashadu anna Muhammadan Rasool Allah. Ashadu anna Muhammadan Rasool Allah.
Hayya 'ala-s-Salah. Hayya 'ala-s-Salah.
Hayya 'ala-l-Falah. Hayya 'ala-l-Falah.
Allahu Akbar! Allahu Akbar!
La ilaha illa Allah.

---

The English translation of the adhan is:

Quote:

---

God is Great! God is Great! God is Great! God is Great!
I bear witness that there is no god except the One God.
I bear witness that there is no god except the One God.
I bear witness that Muhammad is the messenger of God.
I bear witness that Muhammad is the messenger of God.
Hurry to the prayer. Hurry to the prayer.
Hurry to salvation. Hurry to salvation.
God is Great! God is Great!
There is no god except the One God.

---

The prayer calls do differ across the Middle East. When I was in Cairo, the prayer call sounded quite a bit different than what I was used to at home in the Eastern Province of Saudi Arabia.

Even this one from Riyadh sounds a lot different than the way they did it in my neighborhood. This one is much slower and much more subdued.

---

Muslims believe Jesus will return on the last day (yom al-qiyama) to destroy the cross. They teach that Christ was not crucified, a worthless thief was substituted for him at the last instant and that Paul and the church fathers were evil anti-prophets who diluted Allah's message, and things were not set right until Muhammad revealed the true teachings. Muslims also use false purported commonalities when attempting to proselytize Christians and sow doubt in christian hearts about their faith. Muslims do not believe that men are created in the image of God, as Allah has no knowable corporeal form, therefore the Incarnation is anathema, and their civilizations reflect the different understanding of the source of human dignity. The Muslim 'Allah' is not the same God , who is God the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit.

---

Would you say Mormons are wrong to believe Jesus visited America after the resurrection? Yes, the Church taught for 1800 years prior to the advent of Mormonism in the United States that the New Testament constituted the fullness of scripture.

Is it wrong for Seventh day Adventists to keep Saturday Seventh day sabbath?? The church has taught that the Christian Sabbath is to be properly observed on Sunday since the 1st century, e.g. from the time that Christ's life on earth was in living memory of the Church fathers.

Do you believe your religion is the truth but not others and they're all wrong? Of course, otherwise it would not be my religion. Christianity in particular makes very bold claims - that the omnipotent creator of reality humbled Himself to be incarnated as a man and endure horrible suffering for the sake of his created children. As I see it, that leaves very little room for moral relativism with respect to believing in the truth of Christianity, insofar as the dogmas of the Church may conflict with other religions.

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You left out Judaism. Is their God different too?

AggieDruggist89 said:

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You left out Judaism. Is their God different too?

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Do they worship a triune God including the Divine Son of God? Why the contemptuous sarcasm when you know the answer.

No sarcasm.

So you're saying Jewish God is not the same?

AggieDruggist89 said:

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No sarcasm.

So you're saying Jewish God is not the same?

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Jesus Christ is God.

Is that the same as the Jewish conception of God?

If you are looking at ways to exclude all but the chosen people who believe exactly as you do, then answer that knock on the door when a Jehovah's Witness arrives. But do you think you make the cut of 144,000 humans to ever inhabit the Earth past, present, and future to make it to heaven?

I will leave the judging to God on that one fine day. To impose your beliefs on another in order to determine their ultimate fate seems to put you on the throne and not God. How does that work?

On 7th day sabbath, are u saying someone changed one of the 10 commandments and it's OK to follow?

AggieDruggist89 said:

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On 7th day sabbath, are u saying someone changed one of the 10 commandments and it's OK to follow?

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I am not the one saying anything. I am stating what the Church has taught for two millenia. I am just a guy on the internet trying to answer your questions in good faith.

I thought Jesus was the son of God.
Didn't Jesus himself say oh God father father why have you forsaken me..

If he's God, who is he calling God?

Jayhawk said:

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AggieDruggist89 said:

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On 7th day sabbath, are u saying someone changed one of the 10 commandments and it's OK to follow?

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I am not the one saying anything. I am stating what the Church has taught for two millenia. I am just a guy on the internet trying to answer your questions in good faith.

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So you follow human rule(by church) that changed God's rule. Right?

As a non Christian, it doesn't make sense to me.

AggieDruggist89 said:

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OP asked 3rd geration conservative Muslim Americans not someone who'd be radicalized.

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It doesn't matter. Sudden Jihadi Syndrome can break out in any generation of muslim families. It's not about becoming radicalized, it's becoming fundamentalized into the core teachings of their book/fake prophet. Islam has been violent and oppressive since it's inception, it's not a glitch, but a feature, to the faith/system.

Muslims only do the 'coexist' stuff and talk about Jesus in their faith to influence/deceive ignorant infidels when convenient. These are not religious leaders/people I'd like living next door vs. a typical Xiden liberal family;

Quote:

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Imams explaining the evils of saying merry Xmas to Christians;

Quote:

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Quote:

Quote:

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Quote:
Yes, it's Christmas season, so many people ask: "Why should I not congratulate the people on this occasion?" There is no such thing as an innocent congratulation. No! Would you congratulate a fornicator? Would you congratulate a murderer? Obviously not! Would you congratulate a pedophile? Obviously not! So then how can you congratulate people for insulting Allah? Where is your love for your creator, when you approve of people insulting Allah? It is a major sin, and it is disbelief. O Allah, give strength to Islam and the Muslims, humiliate the infidels and the polytheists, destroy the enemies of religion, annihilate the heretics and the atheists. O Allah, support those who wage jihad for your sake everywhere.

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Last Christmas, Ahmad Kulab of the Department for Training of Preachers in Hamas' Ministry of Religious Endowments, declared: "We are not allowed to congratulate the Christians on their holidays. Christians must [keep] the celebration of their holidays to their homes, their houses of worship, and their churches."
Echoing Kathrada's words, he added: "Are we supposed to congratulate the Christians for their denial of Allah?…This culture has entered our Muslim countries and erases Islamic identity and faith. It changes the behavior of our children and contaminates their immaculate faith. In addition, the Holy Quran encourages us to dissent against the dwellers of Hellfire, the Jews and the Christians."
Even Santa was verboten:

Quote:

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Quote:
Santa Claus is a witty and jolly personality who hands out sweets and presents in order to influence people. This image of Santa Claus constitutes an invasion of Muslim countries, because they want to ingrain the image of Santa Claus [among Muslim]. The character of Santa Claus glorifies prominent Christians, monks who used to propagate the Holy Trinity and Christianity among Roman youth, giving out presents, sweets, and so on….If [a Christian] says to me: "Happy holidays!," I can reply with something general, and say: "May you be happy, too." But I say that we do not even have to say this. Even if they congratulate us, we do not have to answer them. We can remain silent. That is better for us, in order to avoid falling into sin, as the Islamic scholars said.

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Zakir Naik, an Islamic preacher and apologist who is renowned among Muslims worldwide, agreed: "When you are wishing Merry Christmas to them, you are agreeing that he is the son of God and that is Shirk [sin]. Because they believe that Jesus Christ is the son of God….Is saying Merry Christmas wrong? I am telling you it is wrong. It is 100% wrong according to me….If you don't know what Christmas stands for and happen to wish someone, Allah may forgive you. If you drink alcohol, mistaking it for Pepsi, Allah may forgive you. But if you are doing it to build a relationship after knowing what Christmas stands for, you are building your place in Jahannam [Hell]." A Muslim cleric in Germany put it more succinctly: "Christmas is an insult to Allah!"

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Mohammed was an unrepentant warlord who supported lying until the day he died/rode the carpet into the sky or whatever;

Quote:

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There are a number of battles in the Qur'an. Muhammad was involved in 66 military campaigns. He was the aggressor in all but 2 of them. The biggest battle was the Battle of the Ditch. This battle took place in Medina. The people of Arabia had enough of this tyrant who kept robbing their caravans. They came to do away with him at Medina. Muhammad dug a ditch, but one side was vulnerable so he made a league with the last Jewish tribe in the area. There had been 3 tribes there, but he had killed or banished the others out of Arabia.

Muhammad won the battle. The way the text reads, Muhammad was taking off his helmet and sword, and the spirit through whom he received is "revelation" came to him and said, why are you putting down your sword, you need to deal with the treachery of those Jews. He laid siege against them, and after about a week, he made a peace agreement with them. He told them he would let them live, but they had to leave Arabia.

The Jewish men came out first, and Muhammad reminded his men that war is deceit. It is acceptable for a Muslim to lie to unbelievers. When the Jewish men came out, he beheaded 600 to 900 of them, and their bodies are buried in the market place of Medina.

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AggieDruggist89 said:

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I thought Jesus was the son of God.
Didn't Jesus himself say oh God father father why have you forsaken me..

If he's God, who is he calling God?

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Why was the Qu'ran not recorded until 200 years after Muhammad's death and yet it purports to be a literal rendering of his words?

AggieDruggist89 said:

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Jayhawk said:

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AggieDruggist89 said:

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On 7th day sabbath, are u saying someone changed one of the 10 commandments and it's OK to follow?

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I am not the one saying anything. I am stating what the Church has taught for two millenia. I am just a guy on the internet trying to answer your questions in good faith.

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So you follow human rule(by church) that changed God's rule. Right?

As a non Christian, it doesn't make sense to me.

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Why did Muhammad marry a six year old child?

But I do now understand why you don't agree with the Abrahamic religion concept. It doesn't fit your narrative as your faith in your religion can't accept origin of Judaism, Islam and Christianity even though they all begin with God and Adam and Eve.

If anything, Islamic view of Jesus is much more favorable than Judaism.

AggieDruggist89 said:

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Jayhawk said:

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AggieDruggist89 said:

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On 7th day sabbath, are u saying someone changed one of the 10 commandments and it's OK to follow?

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I am not the one saying anything. I am stating what the Church has taught for two millenia. I am just a guy on the internet trying to answer your questions in good faith.

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So you follow human rule(by church) that changed God's rule. Right?

As a non Christian, it doesn't make sense to me.

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Matthew 16:18. The Church is governed by Apostolic succession with a divine mandate, it is not a "human rule".. and this idea perhaps does not translate so well from Arabic into Western thought at any rate.

Jayhawk said:

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AggieDruggist89 said:

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Jayhawk said:

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AggieDruggist89 said:

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On 7th day sabbath, are u saying someone changed one of the 10 commandments and it's OK to follow?

---

I am not the one saying anything. I am stating what the Church has taught for two millenia. I am just a guy on the internet trying to answer your questions in good faith.

---

So you follow human rule(by church) that changed God's rule. Right?

As a non Christian, it doesn't make sense to me.

---

Why did Muhammad marry a six year old child?

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No idea. Ask a Muslim.

Jayhawk said:

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AggieDruggist89 said:

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Would you say Mormons are wrong to believe Jesus visited America after the resurrection? Yes, the Church taught for 1800 years prior to the advent of Mormonism in the United States that the New Testament constituted the fullness of scripture.

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This is rich, real rich. The Bible and scriptures contained within were written far later than 1800 years before Mormonism. I am assuming you read an English bible and do not read in ancient Hebrew, so what you are reading was primarily determined in the 15th and 16th centuries, more like 200-300 years before Joseph Smith.

And the "fullness of scripture" was somewhat arbitrarily determined by committees of mere mortal men and one King James when the most widely excepted Bible was put together. This included some books and teachings and EXCLUDED others.

These are not beliefs of mine, they are historical fact. To deny this would be like denying WWII happened.

If your beliefs on Mormonism are so strong, do you speak loudly of such in your personal and professional life? Do you go to Mormon Tabernacle and stand in the parking lot shouting about those heathens going to hell? Just how serious are you on your beliefs?

AggieDruggist89 said:

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But I do now understand why you don't agree with the Abrahamic religion concept. It doesn't fit your narrative as your faith in your religion can't accept origin of Judaism, Islam and Christianity even though they all begin with God and Adam and Eve.

If anything, Islamic view of Jesus is much more favorable than Judaism.

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That's not true. Christians accept the Old Testament, they disagree with Judaism on the nature and composition of God, e.g. the Trinity. Islam is more distant, and is a wholly separate religion whose own scriptures make claims that are incompatible with Christianity.

Also it is not "my" narrative. This has been going on for some time now.

When the church makes a rule... It's divine.

Ok

fka ftc said:

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Jayhawk said:

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AggieDruggist89 said:

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Would you say Mormons are wrong to believe Jesus visited America after the resurrection? Yes, the Church taught for 1800 years prior to the advent of Mormonism in the United States that the New Testament constituted the fullness of scripture.

---

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This is rich, real rich. The Bible and scriptures contained within were written far later than 1800 years before Mormonism. I am assuming you read an English bible and do not read in ancient Hebrew, so what you are reading was primarily determined in the 15th and 16th centuries, more like 200-300 years before Joseph Smith.

And the "fullness of scripture" was somewhat arbitrarily determined by committees of mere mortal men and one King James when the most widely excepted Bible was put together. This included some books and teachings and EXCLUDED others.

These are not beliefs of mine, they are historical fact. To deny this would be like denying WWII happened.

If your beliefs on Mormonism are so strong, do you speak loudly of such in your personal and professional life? Do you go to Mormon Tabernacle and stand in the parking lot shouting about those heathens going to hell? Just how serious are you on your beliefs?

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Of course not, I am not a crazy person. I suspect most Christians don't believe the Book of Mormon is true either... don't know what to tell you. We have religious freedom in this country.. thank God.

Jayhawk said:

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AggieDruggist89 said:

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But I do now understand why you don't agree with the Abrahamic religion concept. It doesn't fit your narrative as your faith in your religion can't accept origin of Judaism, Islam and Christianity even though they all begin with God and Adam and Eve.

If anything, Islamic view of Jesus is much more favorable than Judaism.

---

That's not true. Christians accept the Old Testament, they disagree with Judaism on the nature and composition of God, e.g. the Trinity. Islam is more distant, and is a wholly separate religion whose own scriptures make claims that are incompatible with Christianity.

Also it is not "my" narrative. This has been going on for some time now.

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So you're saying Judaism and Christianity are close but Islam is not..

Ok.

Different Gods.

You win.

Jayhawk is a very confused person, so best to let them be. In one sentence they say Mormons are "wrong" to believe Jesus visited the Americas and that their bible is the only true and complete scripture. Then when challenged to take a public stand on it, say they are "not a crazy person" and are glad we have freedom of religion.

fka ftc said:

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Jayhawk is a very confused person, so best to let them be. In one sentence they say Mormons are "wrong" to believe Jesus visited the Americas and that their bible is the only true and complete scripture. Then when challenged to take a public stand on it, say they are "not a crazy person" and are glad we have freedom of religion.

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Oh I know... I'm just having fun with him. Their dogma doesn't allow for a coherent dialogue.