****Kyle Rittenhouse-Day 9****

53,427 Views | 685 Replies | Last: 4 yr ago by Dirty_Mike&the_boys
TAMUallen
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txags92 said:

ABATTBQ11 said:

Also, even if Kyle previously raised his weapon, he was still moving away from rosenbong and attempting to retreat from him. Even if rosenbong were somehow provoked, I would think that provocation would expire once Kyle started running away. Rosenbong had no right to press an attack when his safety has been established.
Exactly! If Rosenbaum was "provoked" by Kyle allegedly pointing his weapon at somebody, he has the same duty they are asking of Kyle to retreat. Instead he chased Kyle as Kyle retreated. Only one was retreating when he used force to defend himself.


Some lesser charges will likely stick with ****ty drone in the dark video. Horrible decision and perversion of justice
GeorgiAg
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TAMUallen said:

aginlakeway said:

Wait. I thought the defense and many on this thread loved this judge. What happened?


He **** the bed by being an old man who doesn't understand technology. Evidence that should not have been allowed was allowed despite him not seeing what the prosecution claimed
Evidence shouldn't have been allowed. Period.

But since evidence was allowed, prosecution asked for provocation charge.

Provocation charge shouldn't have been allowed because AS A MATTER OF LAW, there is NO WAY a jury could find that provocation (beyond a reasonable doubt - Hawg or other criminal attys?) from that terrible inconclusive evidence.

Judge is a boomer and doesn't get the technology well enough.
The Fife
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aTmAg said:

You guys suck at play by play. Where Dave South when I need him?
Munching on his lifetime supply of slovacek sausages
Waffledynamics
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txags92 said:

aggiehawg said:

GeorgiAg said:

That provocation charge is weak sauce based on that terrible, unclear video.
The problem with the provocation charge is that the jury confuses that to be Kyle even being there with a gun in the first place. That's one of the biggest problems in this case, in my view.

I was feeling pretty good about Kyle's chances until late yesterday. Now, I'm really not sure. Crazy things happen with juries.
That is where I think the Drew H video and testimony were very useful. The jury got to see and hear evidence of Kyle not responding/encouraging Rosenbaum as Rosenbaum is threatening to kill him, got to see/hear about Kyle asking if anybody needs medical attention, and heard about him de-escalating earlier tensions. I don't think the idea of Kyle "provoking" anything is going to fly with the jury unless they believe the car dealer owners shady testimony that was contradicted by others that they didn't want him there.
Logically I would agree with you, however the prosecution now has the advantage of recency bias. This is very disturbing. They're going to have to keep everything prior to their deliberation in mind, but the most recent stuff, like what the prosecution is bringing, is closer in their minds.

I am just about emotionally exhausted with this, and it's incredibly upsetting that the mob might win yet again.
rgag12
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aginlakeway said:

rgag12 said:

Kyle going down


What makes you think that?


Nothing. Was juvenilely joining the panic party.

But I am extremely concerned that public pressure will play a role in determining the verdict of this jury, just like the Chauvin trial. The wokists will threaten to burn their community to the ground if they don't do what they want, and that makes members of the jury forget the law.
SwigAg11
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This is probably a stupid question. If the prosecution successfully plants the interpretation in the jurors heads that Kyle forced provocation with a raised gun before everything went to ****, does that hold true for everything that happened? I mean this in the perspective that Kyle "disengaged" and ran away, but was then cornered later by Rosenbaum. Does that earlier provocation mean that Kyle forfeited his right to self defense with everything else that happened?

Thanks in advance - I'm just trying to make sure I understand the Wisconsin law on this.
AggieUSMC
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Quote:

He's gonna walk, everyone relax.
Ten or more years ago, I'd agree. Today, I'm not so confident.
aggiehawg
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TAMUallen said:

SwigAg11 said:

Did a witness attest that the photo/video in question shows Kyle pointing his weapon?


I do not believe so. The witness was caught in saying that the images were reviewed and peer reviewed by another analyst but that he did not even compare the edited image to the original.

To me that shows that it was not reviewed in any way and that an objective was given for end result. The witness claimed to have worked on it for 20 hours
Then Richards pointed out it took Armstrong 20 hours to do it while their expert did live before the jury in a matter of seconds.
TAMUallen
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sam callahan said:

Media attacked the judge.

He already showed he pays attention to that.

He shrank under the media glare.


He showed he paid attention to friends and text messages. Which he received and read to himself during trial. That one has me scratching my head a bit. I started to get surprised he didn't just say we'll take a break and answer his phone by the end of it ha
GeorgiAg
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When the judge referenced court TV and what a "good job" they were doing, it was a huge red flag for me.
TAMUallen
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SwigAg11 said:

This is probably a stupid question. If the prosecution successfully plants the interpretation in the jurors heads that Kyle forced provocation with a raised gun before everything went to ****, does that hold true for everything that happened? I mean this in the perspective that Kyle "disengaged" and ran away, but was then cornered later by Rosenbaum. Does that earlier provocation mean that Kyle forfeited his right to self defense with everything else that happened?

Thanks in advance - I'm just trying to make sure I understand the Wisconsin law on this.


Judge tried to disassociate the events but then tied them all back together with the terrible video claim of provocation plus Ziminski supposedly yelling gun gun gun

Hard to tell how it will play out
NASAg03
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Spotted Ag said:

I'm up in the air about this case. Watched almost all of it. I know if I was on the jury I would acquit of all charges. However, I have VERY LITTLE faith in my fellow humans in this country. I see people do absolutely moronic stuff every single day and it's infuriating bc it's so damned stupid.
Although this trial has been politicized like the George Floyd trial, that was before the election and this is after. I think that plays into the jury's minds. There is a shift towards more conservative and personal freedom, and this might help Kyle.
SpreadsheetAg
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Horrible screw up by the defense on one of the videos. One of the video's they submitted from a amateur journalist had written captions / annotations on the video that said things like "possibly where Kyle pointed rifle at Ziminsky".

So it's a 3rd party's hearsay on the evidence, that the DEFENSE entered, and goes before the jury. Bad bad defense.
aggiehawg
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GeorgiAg said:

When the judge referenced court TV and what a "good job" they were doing, it was a huge red flag for me.
He then added they did a good job of staying out of his way, meaning they had not pissed him off.
Todd 02
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I'm just a dumb engineer and not an attorney, but...

How is it that the defense hasn't raised the question repeatedly that you can't clearly identify anything in that video or those "enhanced" still photos? You can't tell it's KR definitively. You can't see a gun definitively. You can't discern angles definitively. You can't see Ziminski definitively. And further, Ziminski won't come testify that what the prosecution is alleging happened ACTUALLY happened.

It doesn't matter HOW the video was created or enlarged or enhanced, or who did it! It's fuzzy as ***** You. Can't. See. Anything. Definitively. And it certainly doesn't prove beyond the shadow of a doubt that KR did anything other than defend himself.

I mean instant replay rules in sports don't even allow for imagination. You see what you see. Or in this instance, you don't see what you don't see.
Stat Monitor Repairman
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A not guilty verdict means that all these rulings wont matter. Judge he knows this. He wants to be done.
SpreadsheetAg
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Looks like they have the bingo machine on in the court room where they will draw the names for this year's Hunger Games.... May the odds be ever in your favor!
TAMUallen
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Todd 02 said:

I'm just a dumb engineer and not an attorney, but...

How is it that the defense hasn't raised the question repeatedly that you can't clearly identify anything in that video or those "enhanced" still photos? You can't tell it's KR definitively. You can't see a gun definitively. You can't discern angles definitively. You can't see Ziminski definitively. And further, Ziminski won't come testify that what the prosecution is alleging happened ACTUALLY happened.

It doesn't matter HOW the video was created or enlarged or enhanced, or who did it! It's fuzzy as ***** You. Can't. See. Anything. Definitively. And it certainly doesn't prove beyond the shadow of a doubt that KR did anything other than defend himself.

I mean instant replay rules in sports don't even allow for imagination. You see what you see. Or in this instance, you don't see what you don't see.


They did mention Ziminski not being called by prosecution.

The rest I'm sure and damn well hope is very well saved for closing
ABATTBQ11
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FriscoKid said:

aggiehawg said:

GeorgiAg said:

That provocation charge is weak sauce based on that terrible, unclear video.
The problem with the provocation charge is that the jury confuses that to be Kyle even being there with a gun in the first place. That's one of the biggest problems in this case, in my view.

I was feeling pretty good about Kyle's chances until late yesterday. Now, I'm really not sure. Crazy things happen with juries.
that will be the argument. You shouldn't have been there and because you were there, two people died. It's a crap argument, but you can tell that this is where the state is going to take it.


It would be nails if the judge told them during instruction that his mere presence could not be grounds for provocation and that he must have committed specific acts that would be considered provocative prima facia under any other circumstances to constitute provocation.

And it should be noted, hopefully by the defense in closing, that there were plenty of other people armed like Kyle there that night, but none of them were attacked despite the clearly violent and destructive mob surrounding them. Clearly that action alone was not provocative enough to warrant or provoke an assault, legally or otherwise. However, Rosenbong did threaten to kill Kyle and others if he got them alone, a circumstance that he had immediately before chasing Kyle and lunging for his weapon. It's a hard pill to swallow that Rosenbong was simply defending himself or was provoked to action by Kyle after he had already made violent death threats against Kyle and others and committed arson and vandalism.
Sully Dog
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Defense needs a hell of a closing arguement.
Deplorable Neanderthal Clinger
4stringAg
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Stat Monitor Repairman said:

A not guilty verdict means that all these rulings wont matter. Judge he knows this. He wants to be done.
He could have gotten that a lot easier had he not allowed this provocation charge and the blurred pics and vid.
GeorgiAg
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Todd 02 said:

I'm just a dumb engineer and not an attorney, but...

How is it that the defense hasn't raised the question repeatedly that you can't clearly identify anything in that video or those "enhanced" still photos? You can't tell it's KR definitively. You can't see a gun definitively. You can't discern angles definitively. You can't see Ziminski definitively. And further, Ziminski won't come testify that what the prosecution is alleging happened ACTUALLY happened.

It doesn't matter HOW the video was created or enlarged or enhanced, or who did it! It's fuzzy as ***** You. Can't. See. Anything. Definitively. And it certainly doesn't prove beyond the shadow of a doubt that KR did anything other than defend himself.

I mean instant replay rules in sports don't even allow for imagination. You see what you see. Or in this instance, you don't see what you don't see.
Judges, when presented with questionable evidence, skew to admissibility of evidence and letting the jury decide rather than exclusion because they are worried about what might happen on appeal. A photo/video that might or might not show a gun being raised is probably not "unfairly prejudicial" in the appellate courts if there is any way that reasonable minds could differ. I disagree. It shows nothing AND has been highly doctored.
aggiehawg
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Only I don't think the judge was even asked to modify the provocation instruction.
Fightin TX Aggie
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SpreadsheetAg said:

Horrible screw up by the defense on one of the videos. One of the video's they submitted from a amateur journalist had written captions / annotations on the video that said things like "possibly where Kyle pointed rifle at Ziminsky".

So it's a 3rd party's hearsay on the evidence, that the DEFENSE entered, and goes before the jury. Bad bad defense.
I agree that's a bad slip up.

However...

If you cannot really tell, that is almost by definition REASONABLE DOUBT.

SwigAg11
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Sully Dog said:

Defense needs a hell of a closing arguement.

How important are closing arguments generally? I think there was a discussion from an earlier day that closing arguments typically aren't very important for swaying jurors in the grand scheme of things.
aggiehawg
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We are back in session.

ETA: No it started over from this morning.
Sarge 91
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TAMUallen said:

Todd 02 said:

I'm just a dumb engineer and not an attorney, but...

How is it that the defense hasn't raised the question repeatedly that you can't clearly identify anything in that video or those "enhanced" still photos? You can't tell it's KR definitively. You can't see a gun definitively. You can't discern angles definitively. You can't see Ziminski definitively. And further, Ziminski won't come testify that what the prosecution is alleging happened ACTUALLY happened.

It doesn't matter HOW the video was created or enlarged or enhanced, or who did it! It's fuzzy as ***** You. Can't. See. Anything. Definitively. And it certainly doesn't prove beyond the shadow of a doubt that KR did anything other than defend himself.

I mean instant replay rules in sports don't even allow for imagination. You see what you see. Or in this instance, you don't see what you don't see.


They did mention Ziminski not being called by prosecution.

The rest I'm sure and damn well hope is very well saved for closing
This. The best thing a trial attorney can do is turn a situation like this into a positive. Explain that the video does not show beyond a reasonable doubt what the ADA says it shows. "There are only two people in this courtroom that think this is evidence of provocation, and they are Fatlock and LittleBinger." Hammer the fact that your expert schooled their expert. Hammer the fact that this video didn't even show up until half way through the trial.
TAMUallen
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I'm curious too about how the defense did bring up the technology issue of using the 4k tv which would further distort the images and boldly sassed the prosecutor asking if the prosecutor was either saying he was lying or calling him a liar. I don't recollect exact words as it just popped off back and forth.

I'm sure that will have a large impact with any possible appeal since to me it fully discredits the way in which that the evidence itself was admitted AND allowing of the lesser charges related to provocation
Dirty_Mike&the_boys
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aggiehawg said:

SwigAg11 said:

Did a witness attest that the photo/video in question shows Kyle pointing his weapon?
Actually, no. Not on the photo. But some detective thought he saw it from a video on his "work phone." That's the only evidence on that question that I saw.
But that detective never testified to that in front of the jury right? Wasn't the whole pinch and zoom thing excluded?
“ How you fellas doin? We about to have us a little screw party in this red Prius over here if you wanna join us.”
Ciboag96
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Sully Dog said:

Defense needs a hell of a closing arguement.


And they get to go last, correct?
SwigAg11
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Ciboag96 said:

Sully Dog said:

Defense needs a hell of a closing arguement.


And they get to go last, correct?

Can the prosecution do a surrebuttal?
powerbelly
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Ciboag96 said:

Sully Dog said:

Defense needs a hell of a closing arguement.


And they get to go last, correct?
The prosecution gets a closing rebuttal

It goes: Prosecution > Defense > Prosecution rebuttal.
BlackGoldAg2011
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Sarge 91 said:

TAMUallen said:

Todd 02 said:

I'm just a dumb engineer and not an attorney, but...

How is it that the defense hasn't raised the question repeatedly that you can't clearly identify anything in that video or those "enhanced" still photos? You can't tell it's KR definitively. You can't see a gun definitively. You can't discern angles definitively. You can't see Ziminski definitively. And further, Ziminski won't come testify that what the prosecution is alleging happened ACTUALLY happened.

It doesn't matter HOW the video was created or enlarged or enhanced, or who did it! It's fuzzy as ***** You. Can't. See. Anything. Definitively. And it certainly doesn't prove beyond the shadow of a doubt that KR did anything other than defend himself.

I mean instant replay rules in sports don't even allow for imagination. You see what you see. Or in this instance, you don't see what you don't see.


They did mention Ziminski not being called by prosecution.

The rest I'm sure and damn well hope is very well saved for closing
This. The best thing a trial attorney can do is turn a situation like this into a positive. Explain that the video does not show beyond a reasonable doubt what the ADA says it shows. "There are only two people in this courtroom that think this is evidence of provocation, and they are Fatlock and LittleBinger." Hammer the fact that your expert schooled their expert. Hammer the fact that this video didn't even show up until half way through the trial.

To the lawyers, how bad would the defense attorney get slapped by the judge if he referred to the two ADAs asFatlock and LittleBinger" during his closing? Because in my mind it might be worth it.
4stringAg
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Ciboag96 said:

Sully Dog said:

Defense needs a hell of a closing arguement.


And they get to go last, correct?
Prosecution has a chance to rebut their closure if they don't expire their 2.5hours in their own close.
Stat Monitor Repairman
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This gamesmanship with evidence is typical state court bs.
 
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