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Yeah, the defense wouldn't need to stay anything about the Ziminskis because they werent called.

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The oblique way to raise it is to use the burden of proof that the prosecution has on every element of the offenses as charged. They have the burden of proof, where is the proof that Kyle provoked anyone? (Show the blob photo) this? (Show the aerial drone video) This? Can you see much of anything there clearly? yada, yada.

I actually wouldn't be surprised if defense counsel has essentially two closing statements and will choose one after listening to Binger blather on for two hours on his initial closing statement. Binger's opening statements were a mess in that what he promised he would show the jury, he didn't.

Many trial attorneys, myself included when I practiced, draft closing statements first and then work back to the opening statements to afford consistency and trust of the jurors that what you said you would show them, you did.

Valid point. Hell I'd include that in my closing too. Hahaha

SpreadsheetAg said:

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Valid point. Hell I'd include that in my closing too. Hahaha

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Can't. Jury did not see it.

Here's the video the ADA wants people to think shows Kyle pointing the gun at someone:

https://imgur.com/a/PXILzQC

Guitarsoup said:

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Here's the video the ADA wants people to think shows Kyle pointing the gun at someone:

https://imgur.com/a/PXILzQC

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You are the specialist here, tell me what you see?

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Guitarsoup said:
Here's the video the ADA wants people to think shows Kyle pointing the gun at someone:

https://imgur.com/a/PXILzQC

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You are the specialist here, tell me what you see?

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I can see what may look like someone is pointing a rifle at something off to the left.
However, it looks like a left handed hold on the rifle. KR is right handed. The video is simply not clear enough to determine for sure. The prosecution has the burden of proof beyond a reasonable doubt and this doesn't even come close.

With that said, even if you buy that video as proof of Kyle pointing his gun. He retreated when Rosenbaum chased him. That would make it simple provocation. Rosenbaum pursued. KR only fired after he was cornered giving him a right to self-defense.

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With that said, even if you buy that video as proof of Kyle pointing his gun. He retreated when Rosenbaum chased him. That would make it simple provocation. Rosenbaum pursued. KR only fired after he was cornered giving him a right to self-defense.

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Not if the jury goes down the rabbit hole of simple provocation in that Kyle was engaged in unlawful conduct because of the gun charge. In some juror's minds, it could be that he was always committing unlawful conduct as long as he was carrying the gun.

I doubt 12 people convict him of homicide on a technicality.

aggiehawg said:

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Guitarsoup said:

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Here's the video the ADA wants people to think shows Kyle pointing the gun at someone:

https://imgur.com/a/PXILzQC

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You are the specialist here, tell me what you see?

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Nothing beyond a reasonable doubt.

ABATTBQ11 said:

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I doubt 12 people convict him of homicide on a technicality.

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They likely won't. Which will be a hung jury mistrial so they can retry him. I'm sure their well be a (D)evoted True Believer on the jury that refuses to acquit.

ABATTBQ11 said:

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I doubt 12 people convict him of homicide on a technicality.

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Hope so but this jury has not been sequestered. No telling what has been threatened to them or their families.

Judge Schroeder never seemed to care much about that either.

aggiehawg said:

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With that said, even if you buy that video as proof of Kyle pointing his gun. He retreated when Rosenbaum chased him. That would make it simple provocation. Rosenbaum pursued. KR only fired after he was cornered giving him a right to self-defense.

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Not if the jury goes down the rabbit hole of simple provocation in that Kyle was engaged in unlawful conduct because of the gun charge. In some juror's minds, it could be that he was always committing unlawful conduct as long as he was carrying the gun.

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I believe the Judge is using the defense's instruction on the gun charge, which is "unless the prosecution proved beyond a shadow of a doubt that the gun used was a short barreled rifle, then Kyle did not break the law due to this exclusion.

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(c) This section applies only to a person under 18 years of age who possesses or is armed with a rifle or a shotgun if the person is in violation of s. 941.28 or is not in compliance with ss. 29.304 and 29.593. This section applies only to an adult who transfers a firearm to a person under 18 years of age if the person under 18 years of age is not in compliance with ss. 29.304 and 29.593 or to an adult who is in violation of s. 941.28.

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I believe the Judge is using the defense's instruction on the gun charge, which is "unless the prosecution proved beyond a shadow of a doubt that the gun used was a short barreled rifle, then Kyle did not break the law due to this exclusion.

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I sure hope you are correct about that but I don't know that for sure.

When I hear on Monday, then I'll know.

aggiehawg said:

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I believe the Judge is using the defense's instruction on the gun charge, which is "unless the prosecution proved beyond a shadow of a doubt that the gun used was a short barreled rifle, then Kyle did not break the law due to this exclusion.

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I sure hope you are correct about that but I don't know that for sure.

When I hear on Monday, then I'll know.

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Did the judge say it was possible he would dismiss the gun charge?

SwigAg11 said:

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aggiehawg said:

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I believe the Judge is using the defense's instruction on the gun charge, which is "unless the prosecution proved beyond a shadow of a doubt that the gun used was a short barreled rifle, then Kyle did not break the law due to this exclusion.

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I sure hope you are correct about that but I don't know that for sure.

When I hear on Monday, then I'll know.

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Did the judge say it was possible he would dismiss the gun charge?

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Yesterday, he did. He told the attorneys he was inclined to include it but for them not to be surprised if it wasn't in the final instructions.

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Not if the jury goes down the rabbit hole of simple provocation in that Kyle was engaged in unlawful conduct because of the gun charge. In some juror's minds, it could be that he was always committing unlawful conduct as long as he was carrying the gun.

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Provocation can be through a lawful or unlawful act. The gun charge is irrelevant regarding provocation. Simply being there in possession of a gun is not sufficient grounds for provocation. The prosecution is arguing that the "pointing" of the gun at another person (which is ridiculous on it's face) provoked Rosenbaum to chase him.
But even if you buy that, KR fled. That regains his privilege of Self-defense.

AggieUSMC said:

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Not if the jury goes down the rabbit hole of simple provocation in that Kyle was engaged in unlawful conduct because of the gun charge. In some juror's minds, it could be that he was always committing unlawful conduct as long as he was carrying the gun.

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Provocation can be through a lawful or unlawful act. The gun charge is irrelevant regarding provocation. Simply being there in possession of a gun is not sufficient grounds for provocation. The prosecution is arguing that the "pointing" of the gun at another person (which is ridiculous on it's face) provoked Rosenbaum to chase him.
But even if you buy that, KR fled. That regains his privilege of Self-defense.

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While I am not disagreeing with you on the actual law, the jury may not see it in the same way unless the instructions are very clear. I fear they are not clear on those delineations.

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While I am not disagreeing with you on the actual law, the jury may not see it in the same way unless the instructions are very clear. I fear they are not clear on those delineations.

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If the jury is stupid enough to buy the prosecution's argument on this, KR never had a chance at acquittal to begin with.

Don't be surprised when the judge hands down some extremely narrow instructions to the Jury. After all the Prosecution's shenanigans in front of the jury and the insanity of death threats that the left is bombarding the judge and jurors with on social media. I feel it in my bones that Schroeder is going to clamp down on this jury and not let them get stupid.

Maybe I'm wrong but this judge has been on the bench a long time and is not going to be intimidated.

oops, wrong thread.

aggiehawg said:

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oops, wrong thread.

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I mentioned you in my last long post on the Mueller thread counselor, hope you don't mind.