Rossticus said:

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The Debt said:

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However I would argue that, other than the social media mob, many would argue that Russia has been very intentional in avoiding civilian deaths. To what extent Mari was leveled is still a debate. The ukr leadership were in the steelworks, an industrial district. If they have destroyed it and residential zones were adjacent, that's no crime. Not by international standards, nor US ROEs. If they just said, burn the city and sow salt into its soil...that's possibly a war crime, but who will prosecute that? The city fathers of Hiroshima?

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-However I would argue that, other than the social media mob, many would argue that Russia has been very intentional in avoiding civilian deaths.

Who are the "many" that are arguing this. Don't cite "many" without specific references. Satellite images, videos (even from Russian sources), photos (even from Russian sources), eyewitness accounts all show widespread and extensive damage to civilian areas nowhere near the coastal industrial sector and have for weeks.

Your final assertion is immaterial to the question at hand as to whether Russia has or has not willfully gone scorched earth on Mariupol and its residents. Hiroshima isn't a valid comparison as the conflict between Japan and America isn't analogous to the current one in any fashion.

I'll move on to the remainder of your illogical word salad later on if nobody beats me to it. There is literally no sound logic in anything you write. It's like you've trained in using logical and illogical fallacies in an attempt to make your bullisht appear superficially sound, but it's so baseless that even that can't cover the stink. The damnedest thing I've ever seen.

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ABATTBQ11 said:

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The Debt said:

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However I would argue that, other than the social media mob, many would argue that Russia has been very intentional in avoiding civilian deaths.

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Are you high?

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there are still people denying the Holocaust. Some people will never come around.

That's not true at all. But if it's a prevailing narrative coming from our media, I'm going to assume it's a lie until proven otherwise.

RebelE Infantry said:

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That's not true at all. But if it's a prevailing narrative coming from our media, I'm going to assume it's a lie until proven otherwise.

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No offense intended. By "bought the war propaganda hook, line, and sinker" it seemed like you may have been referring to most of the info flow into the US on the subject as "propaganda".

I guess what I'm asking is, do you analyze everything from all sources, do you fully ignore certain sources in favor of others, are there sources of information that you don't have ready access to that you'd consider analyzing?

I'm just trying to figure out how you, individually, curate your info intake. What sources are auto-ejected without consideration, what sources are given preference, do you analyze and back-check your preferred sources?

Rossticus said:

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The Debt said:

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However I would argue that, other than the social media mob, many would argue that Russia has been very intentional in avoiding civilian deaths. To what extent Mari was leveled is still a debate. The ukr leadership were in the steelworks, an industrial district. If they have destroyed it and residential zones were adjacent, that's no crime. Not by international standards, nor US ROEs. If they just said, burn the city and sow salt into its soil...that's possibly a war crime, but who will prosecute that? The city fathers of Hiroshima?

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"-However I would argue that, other than the social media mob, many would argue that Russia has been very intentional in avoiding civilian deaths."

Who are the "many" that are arguing this. Don't cite "many" without specific references. Satellite images, videos (even from Russian sources), photos (even from Russian sources), eyewitness accounts all show widespread and extensive damage to civilian areas nowhere near the coastal industrial sector and have for weeks.

"If they just said, burn the city and sow salt into its soil...that's possibly a war crime, but who will prosecute that? The city fathers of Hiroshima?"

Your final assertion is immaterial to the question at hand as to whether Russia has or has not willfully gone scorched earth on Mariupol and its residents. Hiroshima isn't a valid comparison as the conflict between Japan and America isn't analogous to the current one in any fashion.

I'll move on to the remainder of your illogical word salad later on if nobody beats me to it. There is literally no sound logic in anything you write. It's like you've trained in using logical and illogical fallacies in an attempt to make your bullisht appear superficially sound, but it's so baseless that even that can't cover the stink. The damnedest thing I've ever seen.

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His entire both sides argument fails when you take into account that Russia invaded another country for no reason. Both sides may have issues, but one is exponentially worse in this situation and a tiny minority of people are so desperate to appear contrarian for whatever reason that they will take the side of a murdering dictator and play it off as "just asking questions."

--However I would argue that, other than the social media mob, many would argue that Russia has been very intentional in avoiding civilian deaths.

This is quite simply incorrect. The atrocities are well documented and severe. Satellite imagery from our own government shows the civilian bodies lining the streets. Your assertion here is hard to even comprehend.

Quote:

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The Russians Putin sent had no authority either. Those dingleberries he sent to meet with the Ukrainians were nobodies with no power or authority to negotiate for anything. I'm sure they were authorized to accept full capitulation but that's about it.

It was a show. Why would you send someone serious if Putin isn't serious. Putin did, iirc, announce his representation first, prior to the Belarus meeting. That signaled his intent, or lack thereof, and it was noted publicly by quite a few folks as an indication that he wasn't at all invested in productive negotiations.

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This is just elitism at its finest.

When China sends their state department, would you say Xi hasnt authorized them to negotiate? Or even to relay the interests of Beijing?

Your blind hatred for russia permeates your rhetoric and thoughts. Even in the cold war, kruschev wasnt the sole totalitarian of his state department.

But here with Ukraine, we see guys wearing sportswear and baseball caps placing their cellphones on the table. They had no authority or position that wasnt granted ad hoc.

Now what's interesting is about these negotiations is that if you think Russia is losing, you think they are negotiations to end hostilities. (The off ramp theory). But if you understand that to russians war is just an extension of political decision, these negotiations are not about peace, but dialoguing with the enemy.

In the west we think "treaty of paris" end of war. To Moscow, the talks can be healthy as both sides execute war in real time. Tomorrow they could negotiate prisoner exchanges. They could do as the engineers at the power plant, and negotiate ceasefire neutral zone. (There are photos of russian and ukrainian soldiers in a command room, chilling, no fighting next to the nuclear reactor.)

It is beneficial to talk to your enemy during a war. So you say the russian delegation are not authorized to negotiate, well that's a juvenile assessment, because their job is only partially to "negotiate peace" their primary focus is to broker "favorable circumstances" (as opposed to "favorable terms"). Intelligence gathering is the other aspect, what does ukraine know, what do they think they know, are they saying X because of "Germany's" aid, are they saying Y because they are falsely projecting strength in Odessa?

Russians talk to their enemies. America cuts off communication until they are ready to end it.

BusterAg said:

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--However I would argue that, other than the social media mob, many would argue that Russia has been very intentional in avoiding civilian deaths.

This is quite simply incorrect. The atrocities are well documented and severe. Satellite imagery from our own government shows the civilian bodies lining the streets. Your assertion here is hard to even comprehend.

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And even if you disregard government intelligence sources, private satellite data still corroborates. So you have to buy in to a massive reality altering conspiracy for the sake of setting up Russia to look bad when they're actually the good guys.

You are getting dunked on a lot here, but I appreciate the differing viewpoint.

RebelE Infantry said:

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That's not true at all. But if it's a prevailing narrative coming from our media, I'm going to assume it's a lie until proven otherwise.

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So, satellite imagery provided by the US government of civilian bodies on the street were just made up?

The Debt said:

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Quote:

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The Russians Putin sent had no authority either. Those dingleberries he sent to meet with the Ukrainians were nobodies with no power or authority to negotiate for anything. I'm sure they were authorized to accept full capitulation but that's about it.

It was a show. Why would you send someone serious if Putin isn't serious. Putin did, iirc, announce his representation first, prior to the Belarus meeting. That signaled his intent, or lack thereof, and it was noted publicly by quite a few folks as an indication that he wasn't at all invested in productive negotiations.

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This is just elitism at its finest.

When China sends their state department, would you say Xi hasnt authorized them to negotiate? Or even to relay the interests of Beijing?

Your blind hatred for russia permeates your rhetoric and thoughts. Even in the cold war, kruschev wasnt the sole totalitarian of his state department.

But here with Ukraine, we see guys wearing sportswear and baseball caps placing their cellphones on the table. They had no authority or position that wasnt granted ad hoc.

Now what's interesting is about these negotiations is that if you think Russia is losing, you think they are negotiations to end hostilities. (The off ramp theory). But if you understand that to russians war is just an extension of political decision, these negotiations are not about peace, but dialoguing with the enemy.

In the west we think "treaty of paris" end of war. To Moscow, the talks can be healthy as both sides execute war in real time. Tomorrow they could negotiate prisoner exchanges. They could do as the engineers at the power plant, and negotiate ceasefire neutral zone. (There are photos of russian and ukrainian soldiers in a command room, chilling, no fighting next to the nuclear reactor.)

It is beneficial to talk to your enemy during a war. So you say the russian delegation are not authorized to negotiate, well that's a juvenile assessment, because their job is only partially to "negotiate peace" their primary focus is to broker "favorable circumstances" (as opposed to "favorable terms"). Intelligence gathering is the other aspect, what does ukraine know, what do they think they know, are they saying X because of "Germany's" aid, are they saying Y because they are falsely projecting strength in Odessa?

Russians talk to their enemies. America cuts off communication until they are ready to end it.

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"Your blind hatred for russia permeates your rhetoric and thoughts. Even in the cold war, kruschev wasnt the sole totalitarian of his state department."

To begin…wtf? Really? Who says something like this other than, well, a Russian? It literally makes no sense for anyone that doesn't feel affiliated with the entity in question to respond like this. It's as if the integrity of something that you value has been impugned.

"to russians war is just an extension of political decision, these negotiations are not about peace, but dialoguing with the enemy."

Here, you completely showed your ass. Yes. This is exactly how Russia approaches negotiation. Not in good faith and not with the intent to truly negotiate.

1) You previously said that Ukrainian negotiators aren't authorized to do anything.

2) I pointed out the same for the Russian side, which led you to rant about anti Russian bias and how unlike the the poorly dressed Ukrainians who clearly could have no authority, the Russian side (headed by Vladimir Medinsky, FORMER MINISTER OF CULTURE and current presidential aide on HISTORY AND HUMANITIES POLICY) was, while indeed empowered, instead playing 4D Russian chess with the inferior Ukrainians.

And I have a problem with bias. Whatever you say champ.

3) In the quote I posted above, you literally admit that Russia wasn't negotiating in good faith, just intelligence gathering which, when done by Russia is brilliant, but if done by Ukraine is a sign that Zelensky sent powerless stooges to the negotiations.

If I drew an artistic representation of your reasoning process it would resemble a Calabi-Yau Manifold.

To close, and I mean this with utmost sincerity…

BusterAg said:

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RebelE Infantry said:

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That's not true at all. But if it's a prevailing narrative coming from our media, I'm going to assume it's a lie until proven otherwise.

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So, satellite imagery provided by the US government of civilian bodies on the street were just made up?

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That there were bodies on the street does not tell us the circumstances under which they got there. Could the Russians have dragged out civilians that they had identified as friendly and shot them for no reason? Sure. Could the civilians have been caught in an artillery attack? Sure. Could the Ukrainians have come through and shot civilians marked as Russian friendlies? Sure. Have seen very little evidence pointing to any one conclusion thus far.

It's going to take a little more than "trust us, the Russians did these war crimes because Russians bad" from the very people who stand to benefit the most from atrocities committed against Ukrainian civilians for me to believe it. Especially since those same people have outright lied so many times.

What would convince you that the Russians have been intentionally killing innocent people? What would you have to be presented with to accept that this is happening?

Debt claiming Russians are doing their best to not intentionally kill civilians is an utter joke. Any plausible counter arguments you tried to make earlier are all lost now.
Russians targeted a train station with women and children fleeing and killed 57 - no where near a military site. What about the bomb shelter clearly labeled (in Russian) children inside? Or the maternity hospital?

Do better - research before spouting these lies.

BusterAg said:

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Blah blah blah.

Russians killing citizens and raping underage girls is evil. Rolling through town shelling apartment buildings from tanks is not ok.

The blind spot you have here is comparing those atrocities to Ukraine fighting a war. Uke is not some country of angels, and typical eastern European government corruption exists there, too.

But the war crimes by Russia are severe.

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Of course these things are severe and horrific. But I don't know they happened. I know I'm told they happened. But after the last 2 years? I believe very little.

Also, why do I care what's happening on the other side of the globe? Have people asked themselves why they care about this but not Chechnya?!?

Bottlerocket said:

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Debt claiming Russians are doing their best to not intentionally kill civilians is an utter joke. Any plausible counter arguments you tried to make earlier are all lost now.
Russians targeted a train station with women and children fleeing and killed 57 - no where near a military site. What about the bomb shelter clearly labeled (in Russian) children inside? Or the maternity hospital?

Do better - research before spouting these lies.

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Where is the evidence that this was done by the Russians? I have seen nothing in the way of proof of this claim. This was a missile widely used by Ukraine and arguably still used by Russia. The serial number from the missile in question is AWFULLY close in sequence to verified Ukrainian Tochka-U's. Despite all of this the only claim has been "Russians did this, trust us." Not to mention Ukraine fired the exact same type of missile and cluster warhead at a city in Donetsk something like 2 weeks before the train station strike, killing a bunch of civilians on the street.

So again, where is the proof that Russians launched the missile at the train station?

Not unrelated, if you are using a rail line to transport military equipment, that rail line is a military target.

Nobody says that you have to care. But you also clearly don't care about informing yourself either. And if blissfully willful ignorance is your preferred state, and you're not interested in intelligently discussing information pertinent to the matter at hand then this isn't the place for you. This isn't the "virtue signal that I don't care about what y'all are talking about" thread.

This is my point, your media diet is that Russia is indiscriminately killing civilians. To begin to peel back this idea will take some time, but I am uncertain many of you would even listen. Who are my sources? Mostly european news, UK, a bit of Scott Ritter and some aggregators.

First, start with Putins message to the Ukrainian people prior to the invasion. He said he seeks political change and has no interest in harming civilians. Now you can say "hes a madman blah blah blah, cant be trusted." But again if you understand that war is an extension of politics, what does killing civilians buy you? International condemnation beyond mere invasion. It cannot aid you, and most civilians are not capable of inflicting harm to professional soldiers. Now that gets tricky when civilians are conscripted and not identifiable as no longer civilians. It gets more difficult when this week we hear (Ritter) that ukr soldiers have been using civilian cars in the Donbass either because the military vehicles are destroyed or because they know russians are more reluctant to fire on civilian transports. If the truth is the former, Ukr is defeated in the Donbass, if the truth is the latter, Russia shows restraint to civilians....and my case is made.

Secondly we have civilian infrastructure still in tact. Trains are running, cell phone towers are humming, water is flowing. America destroys these things because they are dual purpose. If a factory can build a car it can build a tank, so americans destroy those factories. Russia has been keeping these "dual purpose" targets up. In the first weeks when russia rolled into towns, they would talk to mayors tell the mayor they would search for arms to demilitarize the town, then tell the mayor to relay to the people that they were to continue to live thier lives, go to work, etc. And the russians seldom garrisoned in the town, the local police would retain authority. (Garrisoning troops takes them away from the war and violates the principles of maneuver warfare.)

Now heres the take you wont get about Bucha. The troops blockading kiev were "garrisoned" for the feint, the false siege. They were in Bucha for weeks. What you see in some of the photos really needs context. Some of the photos have russian MREs next to dead bodies. (See the russians were there, smoking gun!!!) The russians have been trading MREs for eggs, milk, etc with locals. (You cant prove that.) Ok but follow this.

Ukrainian soldiers tie gold or blue cloth on their arm and/or thigh. It's the visual signifier of friend or foe. Russia has been doing the same, but they have been tying white cloth. This is critical so pay attention. We have already seen Kiev abduct and kill a mayor and dump him in the center of town. "Collaborators" die as traitors. I gave you the name of the "negotiator" who has been killed and dumped in kiev. Zelenskys regime kills Ukrainians.

Back to Bucha (pardon to the mods but people need to see this)



Why would the russians tie the hands with white cloth? Why not anything else? why tie it at all?

We already know the first ukrainians in after the russian withdrawal were a paramilitary group. It is likely they entered and began finding collaborators who traded for MREs and starting executing people and did it publicly with the visible sign of the russian invaders....the white cloth.

Another example of Russia not targeting civilians is the humanitarian corridors. You can say those are tactical to reduce partisan fighters, but if russia can reduce the number of women and children corpses to be used against them, they are intentionally finding ways to reduce civilian casualties. We dont offer such things. How many civilians did we kill in Iraq? 200k, that is collateral damage. 5k supposedly in Mariupol, that is a war crime.

BusterAg said:

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At this point the argument is getting metaphysical. Can you prove to me conclusively that the keyboard you perceive you are typing on actually exists and is not just a figment of your imagination?

At some point people just choose their own truth, and stick with it regardless of new information.

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It is absolutely incredible the cognitive dissonance some of these folk exhibit at this point. I can't even read the drivel they post anymore. Finally just blocked them all. Saves my sanity.

There are some times when you just can't even communicate on the same level with someone and all conversation at that point is moot. Like someone looking at a blue ball and telling you it is a red ball. You correct them but they insist it's red. You try again. Nah, bro. It's red, the gubment told me it's blue so it is obviously red instead.

So you just give up and tune them out and disregard their input from then on out and move on with your own life.

I've reached that point with some in my life and here on TA.

Bottlerocket said:

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Debt claiming Russians are doing their best to not intentionally kill civilians is an utter joke. Any plausible counter arguments you tried to make earlier are all lost now.
Russians targeted a train station with women and children fleeing and killed 57 - no where near a military site. What about the bomb shelter clearly labeled (in Russian) children inside? Or the maternity hospital?

Do better - research before spouting these lies.

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US army, Bravo company would like a word with you.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mahmudiyah_rape_and_killings

Men do evil. Flag and creed are no protection.

The rational basis is "was it ordered?" Or "was it passively allowed by the command structure?"

I will not deny russians are doing evil things in a war. There is no war were this doesnt happen, but the existence of wrong only flows upward if it is the MO of the military. See Imperial Japan in Nanking.

Rossticus said:

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We've discussed every point that you just mentioned, directly with you, before. You're purposely cluttering this thread by trying to continually re-litigate the same things over and over. Go back, find the posts from when you last brought this up and read. The points you keep bringing up are immaterial to the subject at hand.

For instance, the tying of hands.

1) They tied hands with what they had. Whether it's what you think they should have used is immaterial. It's what they had and they used it.

2) Why did they tie their hands? Because they wanted to immobilize their freaking hands. It makes sense. It's not odd.

You're trying to create inconsistencies and points of contention where, in reality, none logically exist.

"It is likely they entered and began finding collaborators who traded for MREs and starting executing people and did it publicly with the visible sign of the russian invaders....the white cloth."

Why is this likely? Provide evidence that this is more likely than what the preponderance of evidence at hand? You're just pulling "it's likely" out of your ass with no supportive evidence.

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It is likely because this is what the paramilitary folks do.

https://www.newsweek.com/ukrainian-mayor-killed-execution-style-thrown-pit-troops-report-1694575

No one disputes that the paramilitary folks were the first into Bucha. No one disputes that collaborators are executed. You even had one official under Zelensky praise the execution of "ukrainian traitors."

This is what they do. They are brutalizing their own people for forsaking the effort.

Since you are such a keen critic, tell me where is the motive of these executions from the russian stand point? Means motive opportunity. Let's hear it.

The Debt said:

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Bottlerocket said:

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Debt claiming Russians are doing their best to not intentionally kill civilians is an utter joke. Any plausible counter arguments you tried to make earlier are all lost now.
Russians targeted a train station with women and children fleeing and killed 57 - no where near a military site. What about the bomb shelter clearly labeled (in Russian) children inside? Or the maternity hospital?

Do better - research before spouting these lies.

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US army, Bravo company would like a word with you.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mahmudiyah_rape_and_killings

Men do evil. Flag and creed are no protection.

The rational basis is "was it ordered?" Or "was it passively allowed by the command structure?"

I will not deny russians are doing evil things in a war. There is no war were this doesnt happen, but the existence of wrong only flows upward if it is the MO of the military. See Imperial Japan in Nanking.

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Anyone can edit Wikipedia. Gtfoh

Rossticus said:

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The Debt has shown quite the propensity to post hot takes by Eric Zuesse. I highly recommend that anyone not acquainted with Mr Zuesse familiarize themselves. Look him up and peruse his eye opening journalistic prowess over the years.

Here are some of his most recent intellectual masterpieces that lend us insight into our friend, The Debt's, weightiest of thoughts.

https://moderndiplomacy.eu/2022/04/10/ukraine-targets-u-s-eu-press-report-the-lie-not-the-truth/amp/

https://moderndiplomacy.eu/2022/04/06/nato-declares-its-intent-to-include-all-countries/amp/

https://moderndiplomacy.eu/2022/04/01/authentic-war-reporting-from-ukraine/amp/

https://moderndiplomacy.eu/2022/03/23/what-is-blocking-a-peace-agreement-between-putin-zelensky/amp/

https://moderndiplomacy.eu/2022/04/01/the-hiding-of-whom-the-rulers-of-america-are/amp/

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I love that author as well, Green Eggs and Ham was my favorite.

Rossticus said:

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The Debt said:

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Bottlerocket said:

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Debt claiming Russians are doing their best to not intentionally kill civilians is an utter joke. Any plausible counter arguments you tried to make earlier are all lost now.
Russians targeted a train station with women and children fleeing and killed 57 - no where near a military site. What about the bomb shelter clearly labeled (in Russian) children inside? Or the maternity hospital?

Do better - research before spouting these lies.

---

US army, Bravo company would like a word with you.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mahmudiyah_rape_and_killings

Men do evil. Flag and creed are no protection.

The rational basis is "was it ordered?" Or "was it passively allowed by the command structure?"

I will not deny russians are doing evil things in a war. There is no war were this doesnt happen, but the existence of wrong only flows upward if it is the MO of the military. See Imperial Japan in Nanking.

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Anyone can edit Wikipedia. Gtfoh

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No sht. Would you like wapo, NYT, Usa today, or national review on this incident?

The Debt said:

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Rossticus said:

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We've discussed every point that you just mentioned, directly with you, before. You're purposely cluttering this thread by trying to continually re-litigate the same things over and over. Go back, find the posts from when you last brought this up and read. The points you keep bringing up are immaterial to the subject at hand.

For instance, the tying of hands.

1) They tied hands with what they had. Whether it's what you think they should have used is immaterial. It's what they had and they used it.

2) Why did they tie their hands? Because they wanted to immobilize their freaking hands. It makes sense. It's not odd.

You're trying to create inconsistencies and points of contention where, in reality, none logically exist.

"It is likely they entered and began finding collaborators who traded for MREs and starting executing people and did it publicly with the visible sign of the russian invaders....the white cloth."

Why is this likely? Provide evidence that this is more likely than what the preponderance of evidence at hand? You're just pulling "it's likely" out of your ass with no supportive evidence.

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It is likely because this is what the paramilitary folks do.

https://www.newsweek.com/ukrainian-mayor-killed-execution-style-thrown-pit-troops-report-1694575

No one disputes that the paramilitary folks were the first into Bucha. No one disputes that collaborators are executed. You even had one official under Zelensky praise the execution of "ukrainian traitors."

This is what they do. They are brutalizing their own people for forsaking the effort.

Since you are such a keen critic, tell me where is the motive of these executions from the russian stand point? Means motive opportunity. Let's hear it.

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Yes. That's what the Russian military does, per your linked article. Terror, chaos, compliance, removal of will to resist.

Consistent with acts perpetrated during every Russian military operation from today, to Syria, to Chechnya, to South Ossetia all the way back to over 100 years ago. It's documented time after time. It's no secret.

Let me quote your article:

"Ukrainian mayor and her family were reportedly killed in an "execution style" slaying by Russian troops before being thrown into a pit in a forested area, a local resident told the Associated Press on Sunday.

Olga Sukhenko, the mayor of the Ukrainian town of Motyzhyn, which is located near Kyiv, was allegedly shot alongside her husband and son for refusing to comply with Russian demands, the AP reported. The resident who spoke to the news outlet was identified only as a man named Oleg for security purposes.

Oleg told the AP that Russian troops targeted local officials across Motyzhyn and murdered those who did not cooperate. After the mayor and her family were shot, the man said they were thrown into a pit behind a plot of land that contained three houses that Russian forces occupied."

There's more. I suggest everyone read it.