aTmAg said:

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rangerdanger said:

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I agree that the Afghanistan debacle was the straw that broke the camel's back so to speak. But given the current situation, what should he be doing now? What do you think Trump or an R would do instead?

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I think he should be doing everything he can to make it clear that he is not weak THIS time. If he has to deploy troops on the line to make sure Putin does not dare invade, then he should do it. Though a real president would have to do that.

And Trump or another R wouldn't be in this situation. There is a reason Russia went into Crimea during Obama, did nothing for Trump's 4 years, and is now massing on Ukraine.

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You have to be careful with breaking expectations - that IS how global wars are started. If everyone thinks Biden is weak and he all of a sudden grows a spine...that's even WORSE than being weak because nobody expects it. If he was going on the offsensive that's one thing. But trying to de-escalate a situation? You need to be firm and consistent throughout - NOT doing complete 180 in policy at the last minute.

He would have needed to be strong months ago to not cause more problems than if he did so now.

But it is literally too late to do anything with military force and Putin knows that. NATO could have built up forces in Ukraine as Russia did, but they didn't...and no longer can before its too late.

aggiehawg said:

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Rossticus said:

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aggiehawg said:

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Rossticus said:

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Heavy shelling of Schastya and Vrubivka (Luhansk region). Peoples are in shelters.Gas pipeline is damaged. The biggest thermal power plant in region (located in Schastya) was shelled and stopped working. No gas and electricity. No repair works are possible bcs of unstopped fire pic.twitter.com/XKaQn06R0Y

— Maria Zolkina (@Mariia_Zolkina) February 21, 2022

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So who is shelling whom?

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Russians shelling everything…. Ukrainians aren't doing anything at all. Just laying low.

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So not the separatists that live there normally? Actual Russian troops shelling from Belarus or still on Russian soil? Get confused about the geography in that region. Town names, for instance. Finding them on a map.

Thanks for your efforts to keep this thread abreast of developments, BTW.

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Well, the separatists have numerous Russian regulars within their ranks so at this point it's semantic. But, no, not yet troops from the larger invasionary force.

TommyBrady said:

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Putting American lives at risk to act like we are tough is idiotic. It isn't our fight if the EU wants to get slaughtered than go for it.

We sanction the hell out of them and make life miserable but thousands of dead Americans isn't the answer.

Europe loves to act like they don't need us so let them solve their own issues. If it's so important than let their soldiers die.

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Literally no one, not even the EU, wants to send troops to Ukraine.

Irish 2.0 said:

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PUTIN TO ADDRESS NATION SOON ON TELEVISION - STATE TV

— *Walter Bloomberg (@DeItaone) February 21, 2022

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Supposedly this is to take place at 2100/9 PM Moscow, 1300/1 PM Eastern or 1200 Central. Not long from now.

K2-HMFIC said:

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TommyBrady said:

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Putting American lives at risk to act like we are tough is idiotic. It isn't our fight if the EU wants to get slaughtered than go for it.

We sanction the hell out of them and make life miserable but thousands of dead Americans isn't the answer.

Europe loves to act like they don't need us so let them solve their own issues. If it's so important than let their soldiers die.

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Literally no one, not even the EU, wants to send troops to Ukraine.

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Agreed, but the US and EU agreed to back Ukraine against Russia if they gave up the nukes. Clinton backed the US into a corner almost 30yrs after the fact. Once again the US has screwed over an 'ally' and gone back on their word. If I were a foreign leader I'd wipe my ass with anything the US has signed because it is as useful as toilet paper lately.

TommyBrady said:

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Putting American lives at risk to act like we are tough is idiotic. It isn't our fight if the EU wants to get slaughtered than go for it.

We sanction the hell out of them and make life miserable but thousands of dead Americans isn't the answer.

Europe loves to act like they don't need us so let them solve their own issues. If it's so important than let their soldiers die.

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It has been our fight ever since Clinton agreed to protect Ukraine in return for them giving up their nukes. If this were between China and Mongolia, then I wouldn't do anything. But we cannot agree to help protect somebody in a deal and then blow off our end when the time comes.

The key here is to make damn sure it doesn't start. The only way to do that, is to convince Putin that it would be TERRIBLE for him if he were to go in. Sanctions does not do that. He's willingly eaten those before. Only overwhelming strength would do it.

GERMANY’S CHANCELLOR SCHOLZ CONDEMNS RUSSIAN TALK OF RECOGNIZING UKRAINE SEPARATISTS.

— Breaking News | FinancialJuice (@Financialjuice1) February 21, 2022

GERMANY’S CHANCELLOR SCHOLZ TOLD RUSSIA'S PUTIN THAT RECOGNISING EASTERN UKRAINE REGIONS AS INDEPENDENT WOULD BE ONE-SIDED BREACH OF THE MINSK FORMAT - SCHOLZ'S OFFICE.

— Breaking News | FinancialJuice (@Financialjuice1) February 21, 2022

GERMANY’S CHANCELLOR SCHOLZ: RUSSIA HAS A RESPONSIBILITY TO DEESCALATE BY WITHDRAWING ITS TROOPS FROM UKRAINE'S BORDERS.

— Breaking News | FinancialJuice (@Financialjuice1) February 21, 2022

Irish 2.0 said:

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K2-HMFIC said:

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TommyBrady said:

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Putting American lives at risk to act like we are tough is idiotic. It isn't our fight if the EU wants to get slaughtered than go for it.

We sanction the hell out of them and make life miserable but thousands of dead Americans isn't the answer.

Europe loves to act like they don't need us so let them solve their own issues. If it's so important than let their soldiers die.

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Literally no one, not even the EU, wants to send troops to Ukraine.

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Agreed, but the US and EU agreed to back Ukraine against Russia if they gave up the nukes. Once again the US has screwed over an 'ally' and gone back on their word. If I were a foreign leader I'd wipe my ass with anything the US has signed because it is as useful as toilet paper lately.

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I'm at that point. A lot of good people are about to die because Putin knew that the US and Europe, at their core, are too selfish and frightened to honor their commitments after they get what they want.

It's starting to make me sick. We should have met this head on months ago. Men, women children, families, businesses, dreams, families…all about to be crushed and blown apart to satisfy Putin's ambitions. While everyone watches and says… "that's terrible but better them than me."

javajaws said:

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aTmAg said:

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rangerdanger said:

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I agree that the Afghanistan debacle was the straw that broke the camel's back so to speak. But given the current situation, what should he be doing now? What do you think Trump or an R would do instead?

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I think he should be doing everything he can to make it clear that he is not weak THIS time. If he has to deploy troops on the line to make sure Putin does not dare invade, then he should do it. Though a real president would have to do that.

And Trump or another R wouldn't be in this situation. There is a reason Russia went into Crimea during Obama, did nothing for Trump's 4 years, and is now massing on Ukraine.

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You have to be careful with breaking expectations - that IS how global wars are started. If everyone thinks Biden is weak and he all of a sudden grows a spine...that's even WORSE than being weak because nobody expects it. If he was going on the offsensive that's one thing. But trying to de-escalate a situation? You need to be firm and consistent throughout - NOT doing complete 180 in policy at the last minute.

He would have needed to be strong months ago to not cause more problems than if he did so now.

But it is literally too late to do anything with military force and Putin knows that. NATO could have built up forces in Ukraine as Russia did, but they didn't...and no longer can before its too late.

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No doubt, every moment Biden does what Biden does, things get worse. I've been arguing for us to be strong for months.

And I think he could be plenty strong by sending F-22s and more F-35s (which is 1 ferry ride away) and flat out state that we will act as Ukraine's air-power if Putin were to invade. That Putin knows our pact (they were in it too) and that Putin is forcing our hand, not us.

The regions that want their indenpendence were gone years ago. Russia is a cancer for Ukraine. To stop the cancer from spreading, for now, is to cut off the cancerous portion and that is Donbas. Give up Donbas and then give 'the rest' of Ukraine NATO.

You don't try to scare a dude that isn't afraid of war. Thank God you have nothing to do with this in the real world

Irish 2.0 said:

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The regions that want their indenpendence were gone years ago. Russia is a cancer for Ukraine. To stop the cancer from spreading, for now, is to cut off the cancerous portion and that is Donbas. Give up Donbas and then give 'the rest' of Ukraine NATO.

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Sounds familiar:

Not to derail, but does anybody else have ominous images conjured up of the WWII death match between the Germans vs. Soviets when you read names like "Dneiper", "Lvov", Kharkov", et cetera? I've studied "the Eastern Front" at length, and I'm finding the thought of yet more epic bloodshed in these same areas kind of surreal.

If there is one thing that has come out of this, it is that Germany are a bunch of ****s.

Irish 2.0 said:

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The regions that want their indenpendence were gone years ago. Russia is a cancer for Ukraine. To stop the cancer from spreading, for now, is to cut off the cancerous portion and that is Donbas. Give up Donbas and then give 'the rest' of Ukraine NATO.

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Putin wants ALL OF DONBAS. Only 1/3 is "cancerous" and then only because of separatist insurgent control. Apart from that it's indistinguishable from the rest of Donbas. Russia is the driving force behind this. Donbas would be a non-issue if not for Russian destabilization. Much of Donbas is of economic importance to Ukraine and losing all of it would be a huge kick in the nuts.

Anyone got a better idea right now? Because Biden ain't done **** and it's pretty pathetic when Macron is the face of Western society leading the negotiations.

TommyBrady said:

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You don't try to scare a dude that isn't afraid of war. Thank God you have nothing to do with this in the real world

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Make him afraid. That is the point.

You are clueless. Read a history book. At least one.

La Bamba said:

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If there is one thing that has come out of this, it is that Germany are a bunch of ****s.

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That's a fact.

Irish 2.0 said:

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Anyone got a better idea right now? Because Biden ain't done **** and it's pretty pathetic when Macron is the face of Western society leading the negotiations.

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It may be too late, but the real solution is for Biden to grow a spine.

Rossticus said:

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Irish 2.0 said:

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The regions that want their indenpendence were gone years ago. Russia is a cancer for Ukraine. To stop the cancer from spreading, for now, is to cut off the cancerous portion and that is Donbas. Give up Donbas and then give 'the rest' of Ukraine NATO.

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Putin wants ALL OF DONBAS. Only 1/3 is "cancerous" and then only because of separatist insurgent control. Apart from that it's indistinguishable from the rest of Donbas. Russia is the driving force behind this. Donbas would be a non-issue if not for Russian destabilization. Much of Donbas is of economic importance to Ukraine and losing all of it would be a huge kick in the nuts.

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Okay, so now it's a matter of drawing the lines then.

Ukraine banned the purchase of good and coal from the Donets coal basin in 2017. How much of their economy is truly tied into a place they've banned from participating in their economy?

Irish 2.0 said:

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Anyone got a better idea right now? Because Biden ain't done **** and it's pretty pathetic when Macron is the face of Western society leading the negotiations.

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What it will take is for one eastern NATO country to sack up and support Ukraine with more than lip service and supplies. Then everyone else will be forced to step up their game.

But this reminds me of the videos you see where a bunch of people stand around filming a savage beating of someone without really doing anything other than looking for someone else to do something.

If this happens then we'll be looked upon like we look at WW2. Future generations will say "how did they just sit there and let it happen?". Because Russia will be brutal. It'll be a slaughter not limited to the military.

#BREAKING: Putin told Macron and Scholz that he intends to sign a decree on Donbass shorty- RIA News cites Kremlin

— ELINT News (@ELINTNews) February 21, 2022

EU'S BORRELL: IF THERE IS A RECOGNITION I WILL PUT THE SANCTIONS ON THE TABLE FOR MINISTERS TO DECIDE

— *Walter Bloomberg (@DeItaone) February 21, 2022

PUTIN TOLD SCHOLZ AND MACRON HE WILL SIGN A DECREE ON EASTERN UKRAINE REGIONS SHORTLY, WESTERN LEADERS WERE DISMAYED - RIA CITES KREMLIN

— *Walter Bloomberg (@DeItaone) February 21, 2022

Biden will meet with Putin if he doesn't invade Ukraine

Can this guy get any more stupid?

aTmAg said:

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Irish 2.0 said:

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Anyone got a better idea right now? Because Biden ain't done **** and it's pretty pathetic when Macron is the face of Western society leading the negotiations.

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It may be too late, but the real solution is for Biden to grow a spine.

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And do what? I'm no fan of Dems or Biden, but what do you expect him to do? Commit troops to fight Russian troops? Commit ally nation's troops to fight the Russians for us?

I wouldn't want the US to get dragged into a war with Russia over some Ukrainian backwater. If all we can do is freeze bank accounts and cancel trade deals then so be it, not worth sacrificing American lives.

If the Euros think this is a legitimate threat to their security and want to fight the Russians that's a totally separate question.

This will leave a market. Russian futures were already down significantly prior to Putin's annoucment. They've tanked in the last hour.

Lol make him afraid lol hes ex KGB you dumbass. His people will go to war if he tells them to.

Irish 2.0 said:

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EU'S BORRELL: IF THERE IS A RECOGNITION I WILL PUT THE SANCTIONS ON THE TABLE FOR MINISTERS TO DECIDE

— *Walter Bloomberg (@DeItaone) February 21, 2022

PUTIN TOLD SCHOLZ AND MACRON HE WILL SIGN A DECREE ON EASTERN UKRAINE REGIONS SHORTLY, WESTERN LEADERS WERE DISMAYED - RIA CITES KREMLIN

— *Walter Bloomberg (@DeItaone) February 21, 2022

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He is inviting Ukraine to "start" the fight

aTmAg said:

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Biden will meet with Putin if he doesn't invade Ukraine

Can this guy get any more stupid?

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If he did he'd have to just sit there in his own **** diaper and drool.

TommyBrady said:

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Lol make him afraid lol hes ex KGB you dumbass. His people will go to war if he tells them to.

I was only an intelligence analyst in my past life with a TS/SCI but wtf would I know

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Please don't with clearance crap.

There are others on this board who've had one, or have one. No need to mention you have.

Agthatbuilds said:

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Irish 2.0 said:

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EU'S BORRELL: IF THERE IS A RECOGNITION I WILL PUT THE SANCTIONS ON THE TABLE FOR MINISTERS TO DECIDE

— *Walter Bloomberg (@DeItaone) February 21, 2022

PUTIN TOLD SCHOLZ AND MACRON HE WILL SIGN A DECREE ON EASTERN UKRAINE REGIONS SHORTLY, WESTERN LEADERS WERE DISMAYED - RIA CITES KREMLIN

— *Walter Bloomberg (@DeItaone) February 21, 2022

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He is inviting Ukraine to "start" the fight

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Yup.

Irish 2.0 said:

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Anyone got a better idea right now? Because Biden ain't done **** and it's pretty pathetic when Macron is the face of Western society leading the negotiations.

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Well, this is going down in his back yard. I would hope he would be the one to lead negotiations. Biden would totally F it all up.

FRANCE SAYS CALLS A SECURITY COUNCIL MEETING ON UKRAINE / RUSSIA - ELYSEE

— *Walter Bloomberg (@DeItaone) February 21, 2022

TommyBrady said:

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Lol make him afraid lol hes ex KGB you dumbass. His people will go to war if he tells them to.

I was only an intelligence analyst in my past life with a TS/SCI but wtf would I know

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Really? What agency did you work at? Perhaps I can quiz you on the how the building looked on the inside so I can see if you are lying.

PearlJammin said:

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Irish 2.0 said:

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Anyone got a better idea right now? Because Biden ain't done **** and it's pretty pathetic when Macron is the face of Western society leading the negotiations.

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Well, this is going down in his back yard. I would hope he would be the one to lead negotiations. Biden would totally F it all up.

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Considering France wasn't nearly as involved in the Budapest Memorandum as the US, yeah. I'd expect that potato we have in office to be at the front of this.