Mac94 said:

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https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1492120931019415553

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The leader of the so called "Donetsk People's Republic" claims that they have found 130 mass/field graves of civilians killed by the Ukrainian army totaling 5k dead

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Rumor on twitter that could be cited as cause of any action?

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Gleiwitz Station.

Russian state media says Russia — which insists it is not planning an invasion — is beginning to evacuate its embassy staff in Ukraine. https://t.co/rEEeLZQ14I

— Yaroslav Trofimov (@yarotrof) February 12, 2022

Russia had already sent home the families two weeks ago iirc.

Edit: I haven't been able to find another source for this yet.

why does Putin agree to listen to Biden babble and stumble through a prepared phone call at this point unless he has not decided to invade?

although it would be hilarious to hang up on Biden, and launch the invasion right at the kickoff of the Super Bowl when half the US military is watching the game

russians clearing out their embassy in kyiv

What's our status at the Russian Embassy? Are we skeleton crew or full up?

wildmen09 said:

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What's our status at the Russian Embassy? Are we skeleton crew or full up?

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I haven't seen a statement today. If we are closing it, it's going to take time to destroy the sensitive items.

Looks like Cold War games are being played. Russia claims to have caught a sub in their waters near naval exercises and has summoned the US defense attach. TASS, Russian source, says this was a Virginia class sub. Reuters' article doesn't mean the class of sub.

FWIW, I'm sure we do this all the time and I'm sure Russia is making a propaganda play here. I also highly doubt the USN is going to make a statement. The USN traditionally does not comment on submarine operations.

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MOSCOW, Feb 12 (Reuters) - A Russian naval vessel chased away a U.S. submarine in Russian waters in the Pacific after the submarine ignored the ship's orders for it to surface, Interfax news agency cited the defence ministry as saying on Saturday.

Russia accused Washington of breaking international law and creating a national security threat over the incident, which came at a time of high tensions between Moscow and Washington over a Russian military buildup near Ukraine.

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https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/russia-chases-off-us-submarine-its-far-east-waters-moscow-says-2022-02-12/

We absolutely won't comment if by chance there was indeed some kind error or unauthorized action by the submarine. We wouldn't want to admit to either one.

It also holds if it was a deliberate reconnaissance. No comment or confirmation.

However, look at Afghanistan and border. This admin has already disregarded all basic U.S. military principles so it just may blab about sub operations.

Doesn't Russia frequently fly bombers into or near our airspace? They probably do sub ops, as well.

redline248 said:

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Doesn't Russia frequently fly bombers into or near our airspace? They probably do sub ops, as well.

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Yes they do, tu-95's are often intercepted near Alaska. I think the Russians claimed that they had a Borei class sub surface off of Alaska a year or two ago.

Saw this and thought it was interesting see the routes. FORTE12 was the RQ-4 mentioned yesterday. RC-135W's are SIGINT aircraft.

Today, at least 11 US and Ukrainian aircraft flew ISR sorties over Europe: USN P-8As (4 PK12x, 3 PS12x); USAF RC-135W (JAKE11), RQ-4 (FORTE12); US Army ARTEMIS (BRIO68); Ukrainian TB2 (no callsign). 1/5 pic.twitter.com/RfsyfSGLHG

— Amelia Smith (@ameliairheart) February 12, 2022

So why can't this just be Russia conducting a war games exercise to rehearse how they'd invade and see how the opposition would react. Countries do that all the time.

Either Putin is a genius how he's manipulating the world or a dumbass going to invade. I don't think he's a dumbass.

Dan Scott said:

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So why can't this just be Russia conducting a war games exercise to rehearse how they'd invade and see how the opposition would react. Countries do that all the time.

Either Putin is a genius how he's manipulating the world or a dumbass going to invade. I don't think he's a dumbass.

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It could be and if it is, great. But looking at history makes some of us skeptical. In recent history we have examples of the Russia and Georgia war in 2008. Then we also have Crimea in 2014 and Donbas as a breakaway region where fighting continues to this day. I think there's some parallels between Russia's war with Georgia in 2008 and the current events in Ukraine.

Go back further and the mention by US intelligence of a false flag operation brings the 1939 invasion of Poland to mind.

Edit: Interesting trivia bit, both 2008 and 2014 conflicts were during Olympic Games.

with this crew in the White House

if I was in Taiwan or Israel tonight I would be making plans to flee in the near future

Another Russian Kilo class submarine is transiting to the Black Sea through the Dardanelles. The Kilos are diesel electric subs that are capable of launching Kalibr cruise missiles. Also spotted transiting was a cargo ship with more Russian equipment.

#Ukraine crisis: Armed with Novator 3M14 (NATO:SSN-30-A) Kalibr-PL cruise missiles, #ВМФ Project 636.3 Kilo+ class sub #ЧФ Black Sea Fleet 4th Independent Submarine Brigade’s Rostov-na-Donu Б237 transited Dardanelles towards Marmara en route to #BlackSea. pic.twitter.com/xX1BygOaOZ

— Yörük Işık (@YorukIsik) February 12, 2022

Working on behalf of Russian Ministry of Defense @mod_russia owned Oboronlogistika (OFAC/SDN @USTreasury listed), Russian flag cargo vessel Pizhma transited Dardanelles towards Marmara en route from #Tartus #Syria to a #BlackSea port carrying technical/military cargo. pic.twitter.com/g2HhCLY3U5

— Yörük Işık (@YorukIsik) February 12, 2022

**** JOE BIDEN. Weak azz president.
Inflation
Border crisis
International turmoil
Cannot stand up to the far left.

He could not wipe his azz unless someone told him how to do it, as well as how many squares he needed.

Just happened to see this.

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HONOLULU, Feb 12 (Reuters) - U.S. Secretary of State Antony Blinken said on Saturday the risk of Russian military action in Ukraine is high and imminent enough to justify the departure of much of the staff at U.S. embassy in Kyiv, which the State Department announced earlier.

"We ordered the departure of most of the Americans still at the U.S. embassy in Kyiv. The risk of Russian military action is high enough and the threat is imminent enough that this is the prudent thing to do," Blinken told a news conference in Honolulu.

Most embassy staff were ordered to leave Ukraine immediately due to the threat of an invasion by Russia, with the department saying it appeared increasingly likely that the situation headed towards "some kind of active conflict."

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https://www.reuters.com/world/blinken-says-risk-russian-invasion-high-enough-justify-us-embassy-drawdown-2022-02-13/

Russia says they won't/don't want to invade.

When they do, they will blame Biden and NATO; claiming they forced Russia to act in order to protect itself from their aggression.

Rapier108 said:

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Russia says they won't/don't want to invade.

When they do, they will blame Biden and NATO; claiming they forced Russia to act in order to protect itself from their aggression.

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And Biidenites are such 24/7 liars and Leftist coercives, it will not even be certain that is not true.

Rapier108 said:

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Russia says they won't/don't want to invade.

When they do, they will blame Biden and NATO; claiming they forced Russia to act in order to protect itself from their aggression.

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The Kremlin's transcribed presser leads me to believe exactly this. They specifically cited the delivery of "modern" weapons to Ukraine, the Minsk Agreemenrts, and provocations by Ukraine against Donbas and Crimea.

titan said:

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Rapier108 said:

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Russia says they won't/don't want to invade.

When they do, they will blame Biden and NATO; claiming they forced Russia to act in order to protect itself from their aggression.

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And Biidenites are such 24/7 liars and Leftist coercives, it will not even be certain that is not true.

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Unfortunately, you are correct. This admin is Russia's equal, if not more so, when it comes to gaslighting and propaganda.

Rapier108 said:

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Russia says they won't/don't want to invade.

When they do, they will blame Biden and NATO; claiming they forced Russia to act in order to protect itself from their aggression.

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Russia can say whatever they want to justify invading or not invading. If they invade it's because big bad NATO and Ukraine provoked them. If they back down it's because they put NATO and Ukraine in their place and showed the world who's boss. Either way their claims will be about as valid as the mass graves they claim they found.

GAC06 said:

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Rapier108 said:

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Russia says they won't/don't want to invade.

When they do, they will blame Biden and NATO; claiming they forced Russia to act in order to protect itself from their aggression.

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Russia can say whatever they want to justify invading or not invading. If they invade it's because big bad NATO and Ukraine provoked them. If they back down it's because they put NATO and Ukraine in their place and showed the world who's boss. Either way their claims will be about as valid as the mass graves they claim they found.

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Absolutely true. Unfortunately, we have no more credibility than they do at this point.

It's truly a conundrum. We have no idea who is telling the truth anymore.

One reason why I want Europe taking the lead here. They have far more at stake than we do so keep our lying asses out of it.

YouBet said:

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GAC06 said:

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Rapier108 said:

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Russia says they won't/don't want to invade.

When they do, they will blame Biden and NATO; claiming they forced Russia to act in order to protect itself from their aggression.

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Russia can say whatever they want to justify invading or not invading. If they invade it's because big bad NATO and Ukraine provoked them. If they back down it's because they put NATO and Ukraine in their place and showed the world who's boss. Either way their claims will be about as valid as the mass graves they claim they found.

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Absolutely true. Unfortunately, we have no more credibility than they do at this point.

It's truly a conundrum. We have no idea who is telling the truth anymore.

One reason why I want Europe taking the lead here. They have far more at stake than we do so keep our lying asses out of it.

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THIS.

Also, its high time they take the lead in something that impacts them more. They are the ones that glibly voted to become energy dependent on them. So work it out. Offer them partnership if you have to. Let Europe set the tone.

We have a lot more credibility. We aren't massing troops in Ukraine. Ukraine isn't preparing to invade Russia. Those are crystal clear facts. Russia isn't facing a threat they need to neutralize in Ukraine.

That you know of. Since we do not have any credibility in what we report, that is the catch-22. Ukraine tampering goes back nearly a decade.

Grow up. What's the threat? Where is it?

GAC06 said:

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Grow up. What's the threat? Where is it?

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That's just the point. The means to determine what is what is very murky right now. We are in a blizzard of lies from both capitals. And Ukraine has not been a particularly straight forward entity the past decade either. What we learned from Iraq is slow down when things are being hyped up beyond what you see. Look closer, beyond the surface.

You're right. Maybe as we watched Russia mass it's military for months leading to this point it was really in RESPONSE to us preparing a Ukrainian invasion! Our stealth army* has been massing since last fall and Russia will have no choice but to act for stability in Europe by neutralizing the Ukrainian menace.

*evidence of this stealth army was lost along with the mass graves evidence. Damn Biden is tricky.

Why is it the Obama and Biden admins seem particularly obliging to Russia, and yet their media pawns hounded Trump about it 24/7? How is it that Biden approves their pipeline activity while denying ours.

Sorry, not seeing any of this clear proof of things being just as they are presented and you see them by this gang. I am even tempted to think Biden half way wants Russia to take it over. That looked alot like a greenlight recently.

Now you are just inventing nonsense scenarios. All I am saying is this group in charge has no credibility or benefit of the doubt. Putin doesn't either. But that is why Europe must lead here. Only they are half way in a position to gauge the real fallout and how far they are able to go.

I don't claim to know everything that's happening or every motivation. I'm saying that Russia is the aggressor here, and Russia isn't facing any threat from Ukraine. That is as plain as day.

That's just the point. True diplomacy must account for the other side's perspective. Russia is the aggressor. As said elsewhere, the stand-off is Putin's fault. But not fully in a vacuum.

NATO is a hostile force to Russia. The hopes to defuse that arrangement into something else have been squandered since 9/11 by one side or the other at times.

Ukraine joining NATO is a threat to Russia as they see it. If you withdraw that from the equation, can agree there is no threat. But it is vital people understand that from their perspective.

Yeah if Ukraine joined NATO they might be harder to bully or actually invade. So Russia needs to invade before they join NATO in hopes of protecting themselves from Russian invasion.

GAC06 said:

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Yeah if Ukraine joined NATO they might be harder to bully or actually invade. So Russia needs to invade before they join NATO in hopes of protecting themselves from Russian invasion.

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You seem really determined to miss the point. We haven't exactly worked to change NATO's anti-Russian orientation even since 9/11 days when a common enemy had so plainly presented itself. It doesn't matter what joke you make about it, since Russia sees NATO as a threat they also do not see any having it directly on their border as anyway benign. If you want peace, you have to consider the other side's view. Balanced and forceful compromise is the only way wars are avoided.

if Mexico sought to join a Chinese alliance to promote the CCP's visions, I don't think any admin here (maybe except for Biden's lay down one) would be aggregable and would work in all kinds of ways to thwart it. We have to realize that.

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We haven't exactly worked to change NATO's anti-Russian orientation

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If Obama uttered those words he would have been ridiculed here, and rightly so. Russian aggression is the reason for NATO.