BAP Enthusiast said:

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Champ Bailey said:

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I'm of the opinion that there are always legal justifications to murder people. Children of rape, incest, and sex slavery should be justifications IMO.

Or at the very least, we need to drastically expand adoption center programs.

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If you have ever spoken with adoption agencies the issue with adoption is basically a racial one. White babies get tons of offers, Asian and Hispanic kids are basically never seen in adoption centers due to family almost always taking them, and black kids receive very few to no offers for adoption. I'm talking about infants here, not older kids.

There are more than enough families who want white kids to handle the increase, but it will become an issue for black kids. I'm not sure how to handle this one since you can't force people to adopt a child.

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This is completely false. There are long waiting lists for infants regardless of race.

one MEEN Ag said:

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As always, whenever the abortion debate comes up I link this podcast. Its what put freakonomics on the map nearly 20 years ago. They revisited the data, and present it more clear, concise terms. Everyone needs to listen to it. Its main point is discussing crime, but they dig deep into the abortion data first. I don't care if crime goes up 20 years later. Kids deserve a chance a life, even if the expected probability leads to throwing rocks through windows and petty theft.

https://freakonomics.com/podcast/abortion/

The biggest eye opener is just how many abortions get carried out each year and just how disparate the outcomes are based upon location. NYC has a 60% abortion rate of all fetuses that go in for their first check up. That is INSANE.

We are way past rape, incest outliers. The reasons people use to describe getting an abortion are: Economic freedom, 'just not the right time', and general unwantedness.

And let me head everyone off at the next pass. Christian organizations are by FAR the supermajority of organizations providing care for mothers before and after, adopting children, and care for babies. They aren't just, 'abandoning them once they're born.'

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I wonder if there is a causal relationship between large urban cities with public transportation and value of life which in this case is abortion rate. In a seeming paradox being around many people makes individuals value life less.

Also NYC is a place where people want to be stars. Probably very high level of egos and self absorption.

One of the bases of prohibitions on abortion is "freely consented to sex". The logic is a contractual one. If one can assume that "life seeks to live" then sex forms an implicit contract with any conceived fetus to bring it to term.

Rape invalidates that implicit contract.

Martin Q. Blank said:

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tysker said:

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RebelE Infantry said:

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tysker said:

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You know what would stop abortions? Guys with more access to porn

Neither gay nor lesbian couples are known to use abortions as a form of birth control. But both are known to adopt unwanted babies. Shouldn't anti-abortion groups be advocates for same-salex families.

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Geez, really?! I wonder why?!

You can't possibly be this stupid.

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You cant be this serious about something that has no effect on your life

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Gays and lesbians don't have the necessary equipment to reproduce in the first place.

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Uh... Gays don't have a working reproductive system?

Do they have to get it disabled when they come out? Did I miss this?

tysker said:

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RebelE Infantry said:

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tysker said:

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You know what would stop abortions? Guys with more access to porn

Neither gay nor lesbian couples are known to use abortions as a form of birth control. But both are known to adopt unwanted babies. Shouldn't anti-abortion groups be advocates for same-salex families.

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Geez, really?! I wonder why?!

You can't possibly be this stupid.

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You cant be this serious about something that has no effect on your life

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What has no effect on my life? Abortion?

Sorry but I'm not some hyper atomized bugman. We live in a society. That society allows for the wanton murder of unborn babies has drastic downline consequences.

Keegan99 said:

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Martin Q. Blank said:

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tysker said:

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RebelE Infantry said:

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tysker said:

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You know what would stop abortions? Guys with more access to porn

Neither gay nor lesbian couples are known to use abortions as a form of birth control. But both are known to adopt unwanted babies. Shouldn't anti-abortion groups be advocates for same-salex families.

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Geez, really?! I wonder why?!

You can't possibly be this stupid.

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You cant be this serious about something that has no effect on your life

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Gays and lesbians don't have the necessary equipment to reproduce in the first place.

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Uh... Gays don't have a working reproductive system?

Do they have to get it disabled when they come out? Did I miss this?

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Gay men cannot get pregnant because men cannot get pregnant.

Lesbian woman can get pregnant if they suspend their lesbianism and reproduce with a man (rare) or by artificial insemination which would be for the sole purpose of getting pregnant. It would be extremely rare for them to then get an abortion as a form of birth control.

texagbeliever said:

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one MEEN Ag said:

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As always, whenever the abortion debate comes up I link this podcast. Its what put freakonomics on the map nearly 20 years ago. They revisited the data, and present it more clear, concise terms. Everyone needs to listen to it. Its main point is discussing crime, but they dig deep into the abortion data first. I don't care if crime goes up 20 years later. Kids deserve a chance a life, even if the expected probability leads to throwing rocks through windows and petty theft.

https://freakonomics.com/podcast/abortion/

The biggest eye opener is just how many abortions get carried out each year and just how disparate the outcomes are based upon location. NYC has a 60% abortion rate of all fetuses that go in for their first check up. That is INSANE.

We are way past rape, incest outliers. The reasons people use to describe getting an abortion are: Economic freedom, 'just not the right time', and general unwantedness.

And let me head everyone off at the next pass. Christian organizations are by FAR the supermajority of organizations providing care for mothers before and after, adopting children, and care for babies. They aren't just, 'abandoning them once they're born.'

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I wonder if there is a causal relationship between large urban cities with public transportation and value of life which in this case is abortion rate. In a seeming paradox being around many people makes individuals value life less.

Also NYC is a place where people want to be stars. Probably very high level of egos and self absorption.

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There is and it's related to some of what Ted Kaczynski wrote about with regards to technology and what Joseph Tainter wrote about with regards to how increasing societal complexity will cause the downfall of a civilization.

Both of these things lead to an increasingly detached population devoid of any understanding of the natural world. They are incapable of viewing the world except through their artificially created concrete megalopolis. This is why they have irrational views about climate change, gender, etc. It's all related to the fundamental issues of technology and complexity screwing up people.

The rural/urban divide is much much larger than people realize.

Martin Q. Blank said:

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OG UNF said:

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RebelE Infantry said:

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OG UNF said:

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RebelE Infantry said:

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OG UNF said:

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I think it should be somewhere around a couple of months, 6 weeks seems a little too restrictive.

Maybe controversial here, but lots of people are irresponsible and careless and get knocked up - doesn't mean they should be more irresponsible and bring a child into the world that gets neglected or ends up a statistic.

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Totally. Just kill the kid instead.


Listen to yourself

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What's the difference between 6 weeks and 3 weeks or 9 weeks?

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Absolutely nothing. They are all a unique human life.

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Right, so the law sets an arbitrary benchmark, is already ceding any morality, and is presumably trying to base it relative to the baby's development.

All I'm saying is that if you're going to go that route, then in my mind there's another week or two before the baby is more neurologically developed. I'm not saying in any way this squares with God's law - even the 6 week.

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So you would vote for 7 or 8 weeks, but not 6 weeks.

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If looking at it from a development standpoint alone, yes I think 8 weeks is a reasonable point of no return.

OG UNF said:

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Martin Q. Blank said:

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OG UNF said:

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RebelE Infantry said:

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OG UNF said:

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RebelE Infantry said:

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OG UNF said:

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I think it should be somewhere around a couple of months, 6 weeks seems a little too restrictive.

Maybe controversial here, but lots of people are irresponsible and careless and get knocked up - doesn't mean they should be more irresponsible and bring a child into the world that gets neglected or ends up a statistic.

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Totally. Just kill the kid instead.


Listen to yourself

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What's the difference between 6 weeks and 3 weeks or 9 weeks?

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Absolutely nothing. They are all a unique human life.

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Right, so the law sets an arbitrary benchmark, is already ceding any morality, and is presumably trying to base it relative to the baby's development.

All I'm saying is that if you're going to go that route, then in my mind there's another week or two before the baby is more neurologically developed. I'm not saying in any way this squares with God's law - even the 6 week.

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So you would vote for 7 or 8 weeks, but not 6 weeks.

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If looking at it from a development standpoint alone, yes I think 8 weeks is a reasonable point of no return.

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If you were the tie breaking vote, it may have been made 8 weeks. But 6 weeks satisfied enough representatives.

Sue her for $10k.
Oh wait, we can all sue her for $10k

BAP Enthusiast said:

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GeorgiAg said:

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A lotta dudes who don't have the prospect of caring for a human being for at least 18 years have some pretty strong opinions on this.

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Excuse me but you have forgotten the world we live in!

Men can pass abortion bans bc we can get pregnant now too

— Jack Posobiec 🇺🇸 (@JackPosobiec) September 2, 2021

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SAVAGE

Dara has a mansion, beach home, winter home and Maserati payments to worry about.

Who are these women that she is tell to buy pregnancy test in bulk?

My gosh, use safe practices. There are tons of ways to prevent it from both sides.

tysker said:

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Aggie4Life02 said:

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tysker said:

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Aggie4Life02 said:

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tysker said:

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Aggie4Life02 said:

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GeorgiAg said:

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A lotta dudes who don't have the prospect of caring for a human being for at least 18 years have some pretty strong opinions on this.

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People own the consequences of their personal choices. Abortion is really about consequences free sex.

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What consequences do men own exactly? Do you think that abortion would be OK when the sex is neither consensual nor free of choice?

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Have you ever heard of child support?

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Claw back what assets and garnish what wages? More government access to people's bank account and more government involvement in our personal lives can't always be the solution to your moral conundrums.

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But murdering babies is?

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Two wrongs don't make a right. Let God be the judge of others moral ambiguity. He's much better at it than any elected official or their appointee

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Would you say the same for the murder of born humans? Let God sort it out?

Infection_Ag11 said:

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TexasRebel said:

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So you'd prefer an unwanted child remind its mother of getting victimized for the rest of one of their lives?

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If one believes abortion is always murder at any stage of pregnancy, that's the only position you can hold. Anything else is tacit support of something you believe constitutes murder.

Now while I oppose widespread abortion as a means of birth control for several reasons, I dont believe aborting a 6 week old fetus is equivalent to stabbing a toddler to death. And in fact their actions prove that most who claim they do actually don't. But for that minority that DOES believe this, there is no other position their worldview allows for.

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I agree with what you are saying but I also think that murder is not always wrong.

tysker said:

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Martin Q. Blank said:

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OG UNF said:

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I think it should be somewhere around a couple of months, 6 weeks seems a little too restrictive.

Maybe controversial here, but lots of people are irresponsible and careless and get knocked up - doesn't mean they should be more irresponsible and bring a child into the world that gets neglected or ends up a statistic.

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yah, parents should have at least 2 months to contemplate doing the responsible thing and sucking their little infant out of the womb.

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Seems more responsible than a clothes hanger through the heart, doesn't it? How would you even know where the heart is when the fetus is so small?

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The murder of a human child occurs either way.


I used to be more accepting of abortion. Until I had my own kids.

There is no logical way to get from fetus to human while not considering the fetus a human. It's a human being at any stage. Therfore, killing it against it's will is murder.


All the post birth stuff is irrelevant. We must work that out as a society. The answer is most definitely not that we should kill out children

Like most discussions it becomes about abortion rather than law.

A law must be defined, must be able to be enforce and must be able to be adjudicated.

That's a tough task when it comes to "when does murder begin?" - which is the fundamental question.

It's incredible how much work pro choice people will do to make it easier to kill black babies.

Aggie4Life02 said:

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tysker said:

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Aggie4Life02 said:

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tysker said:

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Aggie4Life02 said:

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tysker said:

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Aggie4Life02 said:

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GeorgiAg said:

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A lotta dudes who don't have the prospect of caring for a human being for at least 18 years have some pretty strong opinions on this.

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People own the consequences of their personal choices. Abortion is really about consequences free sex.

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What consequences do men own exactly? Do you think that abortion would be OK when the sex is neither consensual nor free of choice?

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Have you ever heard of child support?

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Claw back what assets and garnish what wages? More government access to people's bank account and more government involvement in our personal lives can't always be the solution to your moral conundrums.

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But murdering babies is?

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Two wrongs don't make a right. Let God be the judge of others moral ambiguity. He's much better at it than any elected official or their appointee

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Would you say the same for the murder of born humans? Let God sort it out?

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Some murders we have defined as acceptable and others, not so much. Justifiable homicide and crimes of passion have a longstanding tradition in the laws and hearts of man. I think government should be arms length in such matters of murder and it should be left to the people, which is why, I ultimately am OK with this law (as I understand it) even though I am mostly pro-choice at heart.

tysker said:

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Aggie4Life02 said:

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tysker said:

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Aggie4Life02 said:

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tysker said:

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Aggie4Life02 said:

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tysker said:

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Aggie4Life02 said:

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GeorgiAg said:

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A lotta dudes who don't have the prospect of caring for a human being for at least 18 years have some pretty strong opinions on this.

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People own the consequences of their personal choices. Abortion is really about consequences free sex.

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What consequences do men own exactly? Do you think that abortion would be OK when the sex is neither consensual nor free of choice?

---

Have you ever heard of child support?

---

Claw back what assets and garnish what wages? More government access to people's bank account and more government involvement in our personal lives can't always be the solution to your moral conundrums.

---

But murdering babies is?

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Two wrongs don't make a right. Let God be the judge of others moral ambiguity. He's much better at it than any elected official or their appointee

---

Would you say the same for the murder of born humans? Let God sort it out?

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Some murders we have defined as acceptable and others, not so much. Justifiable homicide and crimes of passion have a longstanding tradition in the laws and hearts of man. I think government should be arms length in such matters of murder and it should be left to the people, which is why, I ultimately am OK with this law (as I understand it) even though I am mostly pro-choice at heart.

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I would love to hear how you equate justifiable homicide with abortion.

Abortion

cevans_40 said:

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tysker said:

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Aggie4Life02 said:

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tysker said:

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Aggie4Life02 said:

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tysker said:

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Aggie4Life02 said:

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tysker said:

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Aggie4Life02 said:

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GeorgiAg said:

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A lotta dudes who don't have the prospect of caring for a human being for at least 18 years have some pretty strong opinions on this.

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People own the consequences of their personal choices. Abortion is really about consequences free sex.

---

What consequences do men own exactly? Do you think that abortion would be OK when the sex is neither consensual nor free of choice?

---

Have you ever heard of child support?

---

Claw back what assets and garnish what wages? More government access to people's bank account and more government involvement in our personal lives can't always be the solution to your moral conundrums.

---

But murdering babies is?

---

Two wrongs don't make a right. Let God be the judge of others moral ambiguity. He's much better at it than any elected official or their appointee

---

Would you say the same for the murder of born humans? Let God sort it out?

---

Some murders we have defined as acceptable and others, not so much. Justifiable homicide and crimes of passion have a longstanding tradition in the laws and hearts of man. I think government should be arms length in such matters of murder and it should be left to the people, which is why, I ultimately am OK with this law (as I understand it) even though I am mostly pro-choice at heart.

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I would love to hear how you equate justifiable homicide with abortion.

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To be fair isn't, justifiable homicide is legal construct but that said haven't all civilizations and society's had its own determination for which what deaths are acceptable and within their cultural norms? Abortion is no different, imo.

Would you have given thumbs up to mom too?

People talking about abortion and not the law are making a mistake. It's a horrible law with disastrous consequences.

Operating under the premise that all abortion is murder it's still a bad law.

Only 6 weeks to murder your child! It's basically the Handmaids take!

tysker said:

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Aggie4Life02 said:

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tysker said:

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Aggie4Life02 said:

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tysker said:

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Aggie4Life02 said:

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tysker said:

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Aggie4Life02 said:

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GeorgiAg said:

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A lotta dudes who don't have the prospect of caring for a human being for at least 18 years have some pretty strong opinions on this.

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People own the consequences of their personal choices. Abortion is really about consequences free sex.

---

What consequences do men own exactly? Do you think that abortion would be OK when the sex is neither consensual nor free of choice?

---

Have you ever heard of child support?

---

Claw back what assets and garnish what wages? More government access to people's bank account and more government involvement in our personal lives can't always be the solution to your moral conundrums.

---

But murdering babies is?

---

Two wrongs don't make a right. Let God be the judge of others moral ambiguity. He's much better at it than any elected official or their appointee

---

Would you say the same for the murder of born humans? Let God sort it out?

---

Some murders we have defined as acceptable and others, not so much. Justifiable homicide and crimes of passion have a longstanding tradition in the laws and hearts of man. I think government should be arms length in such matters of murder and it should be left to the people, which is why, I ultimately am OK with this law (as I understand it) even though I am mostly pro-choice at heart.

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I don't know what that means. Morality is determined by popular vote?

No, but this is a question of law, how it is constructed, enforced and adjudicated.

A blanket prohibition would be really hard to enforce. Would every early miscarriage have to be investigated as a possible illegal act? Would a scheduled procedure at 10AM become illegal if the woman was impregnated at 7AM?

We it comes to law (as opposed to human morality) abortion is difficult because you have to define "when does murder begin". And coupled to that a reasonable expectation for the law to be enforceable.

C@LAg said:

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If you find out you are pregnant, and do not want to be, you have very little time to do it.

Do not shut down.

This will be hard, but you can't delay.

Call me, we will figure this out, together.

— Dara Kass, MD (@darakass) September 1, 2021

In other words... Call me ASAP so we can get this child aborted!!!!!

Surprised they are not also offering a discount or Starbucks gift card

"50 stars for each abortion!!!!!!"

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Bypass the immorality of the sexual union you're about to undergo with him. But if you're not a believer in the Lord Jesus Christ you probably wouldn't understand. And I understand that there are Believers who will commit the same sin and expose themselves to the same consequences and may be drawn to the murder of convenience. Ladies you're in control. Choices have consequences.

cecil77 said:

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No, but this is a question of law, how it is constructed, enforced and adjudicated.

A blanket prohibition would be really hard to enforce. Would every early miscarriage have to be investigated as a possible illegal act? Would a scheduled procedure at 10AM become illegal if the woman was impregnated at 7AM?

We it comes to law (as opposed to human morality) abortion is difficult because you have to define "when does murder begin". And coupled to that a reasonable expectation for the law to be enforceable.

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It should be investigated like every other murder. Police don't go knocking on doors to see if there are any dead bodies in everyone's house. People report a crime and the police investigate. God's standards of justice require the sworn testimony of two to three cross examined witnesses.

Aggie4Life02 said:

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tysker said:

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Aggie4Life02 said:

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tysker said:

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Aggie4Life02 said:

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tysker said:

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Aggie4Life02 said:

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tysker said:

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Aggie4Life02 said:

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GeorgiAg said:

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A lotta dudes who don't have the prospect of caring for a human being for at least 18 years have some pretty strong opinions on this.

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People own the consequences of their personal choices. Abortion is really about consequences free sex.

---

What consequences do men own exactly? Do you think that abortion would be OK when the sex is neither consensual nor free of choice?

---

Have you ever heard of child support?

---

Claw back what assets and garnish what wages? More government access to people's bank account and more government involvement in our personal lives can't always be the solution to your moral conundrums.

---

But murdering babies is?

---

Two wrongs don't make a right. Let God be the judge of others moral ambiguity. He's much better at it than any elected official or their appointee

---

Would you say the same for the murder of born humans? Let God sort it out?

---

Some murders we have defined as acceptable and others, not so much. Justifiable homicide and crimes of passion have a longstanding tradition in the laws and hearts of man. I think government should be arms length in such matters of murder and it should be left to the people, which is why, I ultimately am OK with this law (as I understand it) even though I am mostly pro-choice at heart.

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I don't know what that means. Morality is determined by popular vote?

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Not popular vote per se, but kind of yes. Our actions and responses are essentially a constant voting mechanism of what is right and wrong. I think of like the old investor Benjamin Graham quote, "In the short run, the market is a voting machine but in the long run, it is a weighing machine." Morality works in a similar manner, imo, and often gets dislocated, misallocated, and crowded out by government mandate

Quote:

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A blanket prohibition would be really hard to enforce. Would every early miscarriage have to be investigated as a possible illegal act? Would a scheduled procedure at 10AM become illegal if the woman was impregnated at 7AM?

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Abortion, like covid, ain't ever going away... maybe we should stop trying to get to abortion = 0 and work on finding a pragmatic solutions that manages best outcomes and harm reduction for as many parties as possible

tysker said:

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Aggie4Life02 said:

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tysker said:

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Aggie4Life02 said:

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tysker said:

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Aggie4Life02 said:

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tysker said:

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Aggie4Life02 said:

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tysker said:

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Aggie4Life02 said:

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GeorgiAg said:

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A lotta dudes who don't have the prospect of caring for a human being for at least 18 years have some pretty strong opinions on this.

---

People own the consequences of their personal choices. Abortion is really about consequences free sex.

---

What consequences do men own exactly? Do you think that abortion would be OK when the sex is neither consensual nor free of choice?

---

Have you ever heard of child support?

---

Claw back what assets and garnish what wages? More government access to people's bank account and more government involvement in our personal lives can't always be the solution to your moral conundrums.

---

But murdering babies is?

---

Two wrongs don't make a right. Let God be the judge of others moral ambiguity. He's much better at it than any elected official or their appointee

---

Would you say the same for the murder of born humans? Let God sort it out?

---

Some murders we have defined as acceptable and others, not so much. Justifiable homicide and crimes of passion have a longstanding tradition in the laws and hearts of man. I think government should be arms length in such matters of murder and it should be left to the people, which is why, I ultimately am OK with this law (as I understand it) even though I am mostly pro-choice at heart.

---

I don't know what that means. Morality is determined by popular vote?

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Not popular vote per se, but kind of yes. Our actions and responses are essentially a constant voting mechanism of what is right and wrong. I think of like the old investor Benjamin Graham quote, "In the short run, the market is a voting machine but in the long run, it is a weighing machine." Morality works in a similar manner, imo, and often gets dislocated, misallocated, and crowded out by government mandate

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Then it's not morality, it's opinion.

tysker said:

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Quote:

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A blanket prohibition would be really hard to enforce. Would every early miscarriage have to be investigated as a possible illegal act? Would a scheduled procedure at 10AM become illegal if the woman was impregnated at 7AM?

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Abortion, like covid, ain't ever going away... maybe we should stop trying to get to abortion = 0 and work on finding a pragmatic solutions that manages best outcomes and harm reduction for as many parties as possible

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I agree, and I find things like "not after a detectable heartbeat" to be rational and pragmatic.