Propublica doesn't understand unrealized gains

5,628 Views | 56 Replies | Last: 1 yr ago by torrid
1872walker
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Or more likely, they do but they're pushing a narrative at a time when Biden's tax the wealthy plan is foundering.

https://www.propublica.org/article/the-secret-irs-files-trove-of-never-before-seen-records-reveal-how-the-wealthiest-avoid-income-tax

Quote:

Taken together, it demolishes the cornerstone myth of the American tax system: that everyone pays their fair share and the richest Americans pay the most. The IRS records show that the wealthiest can perfectly legally pay income taxes that are only a tiny fraction of the hundreds of millions, if not billions, their fortunes grow each year.


Quote:

The results are stark. According to Forbes, those 25 people saw their worth rise a collective $401 billion from 2014 to 2018. They paid a total of $13.6 billion in federal income taxes in those five years, the IRS data shows. That's a staggering sum, but it amounts to a true tax rate of only 3.4%.


Quote:

Consider Bezos' 2007, one of the years he paid zero in federal income taxes. Amazon's stock more than doubled. Bezos' fortune leapt $3.8 billion, according to Forbes, whose wealth estimates are widely cited. How did a person enjoying that sort of wealth explosion end up paying no income tax?

In that year, Bezos, who filed his taxes jointly with his then-wife, MacKenzie Scott, reported a paltry (for him) $46 million in income, largely from interest and dividend payments on outside investments. He was able to offset every penny he earned with losses from side investments and various deductions, like interest expenses on debts and the vague catchall category of "other expenses."


That's not journalism. That's propaganda and gaslighting.
Cassius
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what happens when the market crashes and my "wealth" vanishes and I've paid taxes on the gains. I get a refund? yeah right.
Sid Farkas
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AG
Quote:

The results are stark. According to Forbes, those 25 people saw their worth rise a collective $401 billion from 2014 to 2018. They paid a total of $13.6 billion in federal income taxes in those five years, the IRS data shows. That's a staggering sum, but it amounts to a true tax rate of only 3.4%.
These guys are basing their theory that the rich are undertaxed on 25 individuals, who if they paid a 'fairer' rate would keep the federal government operating for about a half an hour.

Class warfare is for morons
Shooz in Katy
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AG
The American tax system is a hyper-onerous system of oppression and tyranny set up by elites to reinforce and expand their power over the masses.

This much we all know is true.
rgag12
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AG
Cassius said:

what happens when the market crashes and my "wealth" vanishes and I've paid taxes on the gains. I get a refund? yeah right.


Oh, you lost 1 million in unrealized wealth this year? You may deduct 3000 in loss on this years return and spread the rest out over 25 years 3000 at a time. You're welcome!

-IRS
B-1 83
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AG
There are still people that think the tax system is all about government income? It's about directing/regulating tax payer spending and control.
JW
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AG
Sounds like new fans of a flat tax
BCG Disciple
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AG
Not sure how Bloomberg's is even possible. I'm guessing they used total gross income as income? Maybe foreign income and he used foreign tax credits? I'm not aware of any tax strategy that can show $10b in taxable income while only paying $300mm in taxes. Others are in line with what I'd probably expect based on the shown income numbers.
rgag12
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AG
There's a reason why publications never get specific when they report "income" from these people.

That income is almost certainly gross income and not taxable income, and the majority of the 10 billion in "income" was offset by varies business expenses that passed through the LP and other entities he has a stake in.
torrid
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AG
Heard this on NPR this morning (go ahead, flame away). They were saying "this is actually legal" and treating it like some secret loophole that only the top 1% of the top 1% could access.
dmart90
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AG
Schu in Mizzou said:

The American tax system is a hyper-onerous system of oppression and tyranny set up by elites to reinforce and expand their power over the masses.

This much we all know is true.
That is true - but all of us can game the system with knowledge. But that's doesn't change the fact that the person who wrote that article is uninformed, at best.
Definitely Not A Cop
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AG
They are coming after unrealized gains next. Which will kill investing and any opportunity to move up in this country. It's a great way to entrench the upper and lower classes in perpetuity.
torrid
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AG
dmart90 said:

Schu in Mizzou said:

The American tax system is a hyper-onerous system of oppression and tyranny set up by elites to reinforce and expand their power over the masses.

This much we all know is true.
That is true - but all of us can game the system with knowledge. But that's doesn't change the fact that the person who wrote that article is uninformed, at best.
Uninformed, no. Has an agenda, yes.
dmart90
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AG
Champ Bailey said:

They are coming after unrealized gains next. Which will kill investing and any opportunity to move up in this country. It's a great way to entrench the upper and lower classes in perpetuity.
Nailed it!
OverSeas AG
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AG
Sid Farkas said:

Quote:

The results are stark. According to Forbes, those 25 people saw their worth rise a collective $401 billion from 2014 to 2018. They paid a total of $13.6 billion in federal income taxes in those five years, the IRS data shows. That's a staggering sum, but it amounts to a true tax rate of only 3.4%.
These guys are basing their theory that the rich are undertaxed on 25 individuals, who if they paid a 'fairer' rate would keep the federal government operating for about a half an hour.

Class warfare is for morons
the funniest part is... most of these 25 are lefties.

Hypocrites the lot of them.
riverrataggie
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AG
There is a reason these big CEOs have wives who are president/ceos of nonprofits.
Ag$08
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dmart90 said:

Champ Bailey said:

They are coming after unrealized gains next. Which will kill investing and any opportunity to move up in this country. It's a great way to entrench the upper and lower classes in perpetuity.
Nailed it!


This is exactly what they are doing.
aggie93
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AG
I'm guessing that in the author's rage about fairness they aren't outraged that as you make more money you no longer qualify for most deductions or for many government programs. You get to pay for them but you don't get to benefit. I know in talking to my CPA if you are a family of 4 making $100k or less it's very possible to net out at paying nothing in Income Taxes.

In the meantime, I pay more in income taxes than I do for my mortgage, my cars, my utilities, my groceries, and my clothing combined. I have no other expense that remotely touches taxes. Yet apparently I am the bad guy and don't pay my fair share. Now they want to go after my investments before I even realize them. I'm certainly not unusual or wealthy compared to others, I have just worked hard for decades and played by the rules.

Atlas Shrugged was meant to be a warning, not a user's manual.
"The most terrifying words in the English language are: I'm from the government and I'm here to help."

Ronald Reagan
Definitely Not A Cop
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AG
Something simple most people in our country do not understand. Regardless of your personal views on him, Kiwosaki should be required teaching in HS.

taxpreparer
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AG
If you have a mortgage liability, you should have a real estate asset.
***It's your money, not theIRS! (At least for a little while longer.)
YouBet
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AG
Champ Bailey said:

Something simple most people in our country do not understand. Regardless of your personal views on him, Kiwosaki should be required teaching in HS.


Succinct and impactful. Never seen this.
YouBet
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AG
taxpreparer said:

If you have a mortgage liability, you should have a real estate asset.
I'm guessing he's assuming titled assets only.
taxpreparer
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AG
Probably, but a balance sheet does not balance without it.
***It's your money, not theIRS! (At least for a little while longer.)
YouBet
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AG
Champ Bailey said:

They are coming after unrealized gains next. Which will kill investing and any opportunity to move up in this country. It's a great way to entrench the upper and lower classes in perpetuity.
Already in the plan. Global Marxist Yellen on record calling for it and their is a Democrat bill for it.
Definitely Not A Cop
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AG
taxpreparer said:

If you have a mortgage liability, you should have a real estate asset.


Yeah, this is where people get contentious with him. He doesn't include a mortgage as a real estate asset if you are not using it to generate rental income due to housing market crashes that may depreciate the asset.
YouBet
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AG
taxpreparer said:

Probably, but a balance sheet does not balance without it.
True.
taxpreparer
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AG
Thanks, I have not studied him.
***It's your money, not theIRS! (At least for a little while longer.)
Definitely Not A Cop
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AG
Rich Dad Poor Dad is a quick and easy read. More focused on real estate investing, but it really changed my mindset on how to manage my money and where to direct it. He's very big on pay yourself first, then pay other people, and if you are having trouble paying other people, then figure out how to reduce your own spending.
YouBet
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AG
From the article, I guess personal choices don't matter anymore [sarcasm]. I know when I was making little money I cut things out of my budget to offset lack of income. Only the essentials were covered.

Quote:

Many Americans live paycheck to paycheck, amassing little wealth and paying the federal government a percentage of their income that rises if they earn more.
Also, the bottom half of the country already pays nothing in income taxes, so I guess they are lamenting the upper middle class that do not budget properly nor save.
Tom Doniphon
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Congress created the tax codes... we just play within the loopholes they made.

If having a "fair" tax is so damn important to all of them, why haven't they abolished the IRS and created one instead of this f'ing shell game?
torrid
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AG
Tom Doniphon said:

Congress created the tax codes... we just play within the loopholes they made.

If having a "fair" tax is so damn important to all of them, why haven't they abolished the IRS and created one instead of this f'ing shell game?
I would not consider not taxing unrealized capital gains as a loophole.
halfastros81
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AG
Taxing unrealized investment gains is a ridiculous concept.
Tom Doniphon
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torrid said:

Tom Doniphon said:

Congress created the tax codes... we just play within the loopholes they made.

If having a "fair" tax is so damn important to all of them, why haven't they abolished the IRS and created one instead of this f'ing shell game?
I would not consider not taxing unrealized capital gains as a loophole.

I agree 100%... my point is that for all the bluster outta DC, they're the very folks that created it.
Tom Doniphon
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halfastros81 said:

Taxing unrealized investment gains is a ridiculous concept.
taxpreparer
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AG
halfastros81 said:

Taxing unrealized investment gains is a ridiculous concept.
This. Suppose they would let us take unrealized losses? No, I did not think so.
***It's your money, not theIRS! (At least for a little while longer.)
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