richardag,

I'll check it out. Thanks for posting something that wasn't name-calling, or a disingenuous interpretation of my arguments. I mean that.

aggievaulter07 said:

---

Quote:

---

I am not sure you understand the difference between innocent until proven guilty.

There is beyond reasonable doubt that Chauvin alone killed Floyd. To argue otherwise is wrong.

---

You might be right, here. There might be "reasonable doubt" whether or not Chauvin committed murder, or whether it should qualify as manslaughter. I already mentioned that I am glad I was not tasked with having to make that distinction.

As I mentioned above, you're putting an argument in my mouth that I did not make, and gave you no reason to believe I was making. I did not even attempt to argue that Chauvin "alone", killed Floyd. My involvement in this thread started out arguing against the idea that one poster put forth that ONLY Floyd could have prevented his death. Those are two very different things.

I acknowledged that there are countless things Floyd could, and should have done to prevent the entire situation. I only argue that, absent his interaction with Chauvin, I have seen no concrete proof that Floyd would have died that day.

Saying ONLY Floyd could have prevented his death is the same as saying there is absolutely nothing Chauvin could have done differently in his handling of Floyd that would have resulted in anything but death for Floyd.

You have to be extremely disingenuous, or detached from reality to declare that death was inevitable, on that day, regardless of Chauvin's involvement.

---

No really. Fatal levels of fentanyl are just that, FATAL.

That is not what has to be legally proven. It is, in fact, the complete opposite and that is what has so many here upset.

How long did he continue to "subdue" the suspect after he was no longer resisting? Now tell me how long after he stopped breathing?

ebdb_bnb said:

---

How long did he continue to "subdue" the suspect after he was no longer resisting? Now tell me how long after he stopped breathing?

---

"it felt like too long"

richardag said:

---

aggievaulter07 said:

---

AquaAg1984 said:

---

aggievaulter07 said:

---

You guys are all missing the point.

---

---

....
I just haven't seen any evidence that Floyd would have died that day, absent his interaction with Officer Chauvin.
....

---

I posted this along with the autopsy report, you may want to read both.

https://www.sgtreport.com/2020/07/what-is-a-fatal-dose-of-fentanyl/

[url=https://www.sgtreport.com/2020/07/what-is-a-fatal-dose-of-fentanyl/][/url]

Quote:

---

Despite the ubiquitous presence of multiple drugs in these decedents, the effects of fentanyl were evidently so strong that there were no statistical differences in the fentanyl level (mean and standard deviation) with or without the presence of these co-intoxicants. The range of fentanyl levels was wide, from 0.75 to 113 ng/mL, with an average of 9.96 ng/mL; nevertheless, the distributions of fentanyl levels were statistically the same, whether fentanyl was the only drug in the toxicology or one of several synergistic co-intoxicants. This suggests that fentanyl presence alone seems to be sufficient to cause death, which are findings similar to those found in Sorg et al., 2016."

---

This one fact, stands on its own/by itself, that it was reasonable to believe George Floyd overdosed and committed suicide.
[url=https://www.sgtreport.com/2020/07/what-is-a-fatal-dose-of-fentanyl/][/url]Throw in the fact there is no evidence the knee on the back found during the autopsy caused any trauma nor restricted Floyd's air ways FURTHER is evidence, FACTUAL EVIDENCE, that it is reasonable to conclude Floyd committed suicide.
The prosecution MUST prove beyond a reasonable doubt Chauvin caused Floyd's death. The evidence screams reasonable doubt if not completely proves Chauvin's actions were not the cause of death.

---

Prosecution's counter argument:

Quote:

---

Fentanyl level not fatal
Blood tests conducted as part of Floyd's post-mortem autopsy revealed 11 nanograms per milliliter, or ng/ml, of fentanyl present. According to expert witnesses, this wasn't enough to be considered fatal
Dr. Daniel Isenschmid, a toxicologist at NMS Labs in Pennsylvania, presented data at trial from more than 2,300 blood samples in fentanyl DUI cases from the last year. He showed that while the average fentanyl blood level was close to 9.6 ng/ml, a quarter of people tested had 11 ng/ml or higher. (Important to note: Blood samples were taken from drivers who tested positive for fentanyl and were alive at the time of collection.)
Isenschmid also showed that Floyd's blood ratio of fentanyl to norfentanyl, the molecule fentanyl is broken down to once in the body, was lower than the average ratio both for people who died of overdoses and those arrested for DUI who lived.
Overdose victims who die rarely have norfentanyl in their blood, since death often occurs before the body can break the drug down, he said.
Isenschmid's testimony was supported by pulmonologist and critical care specialist Dr. Martin Tobin of Loyola University Medical Center.
"Mr. Floyd died from a low level of oxygen, and this caused damage to his brain that we see. And it also caused a PEA (pulseless electrical activity) arrhythmia that caused his heart to stop," he told the court. He explained Floyd's body position on the street, handcuffs pulling his arms back and a knee on his neck, back and sides, led to his low oxygen levels.
"All of these four forces are ultimately going to result in the low tidal volume, which gives you the shallow breaths" that can't effectively bring oxygen into the lungs, Tobin said.
He stated because fentanyl typically slows down a person's breathing, the drug was not a contributing factor based on his calculations of Floyd's breathing rate based on witness video, which at the time appeared about the same as a healthy individual.

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/factcheck/2021/04/16/fact-check-fentanyl-george-floyd-not-enough-to-cause-death/7239448002/

---

etxag02 said:

---

richardag said:

---

aggievaulter07 said:

---

AquaAg1984 said:

---

aggievaulter07 said:

---

You guys are all missing the point.

---

---

....
I just haven't seen any evidence that Floyd would have died that day, absent his interaction with Officer Chauvin.
....

---

I posted this along with the autopsy report, you may want to read both.

https://www.sgtreport.com/2020/07/what-is-a-fatal-dose-of-fentanyl/

[url=https://www.sgtreport.com/2020/07/what-is-a-fatal-dose-of-fentanyl/][/url]

Quote:

---

Despite the ubiquitous presence of multiple drugs in these decedents, the effects of fentanyl were evidently so strong that there were no statistical differences in the fentanyl level (mean and standard deviation) with or without the presence of these co-intoxicants. The range of fentanyl levels was wide, from 0.75 to 113 ng/mL, with an average of 9.96 ng/mL; nevertheless, the distributions of fentanyl levels were statistically the same, whether fentanyl was the only drug in the toxicology or one of several synergistic co-intoxicants. This suggests that fentanyl presence alone seems to be sufficient to cause death, which are findings similar to those found in Sorg et al., 2016."

---

This one fact, stands on its own/by itself, that it was reasonable to believe George Floyd overdosed and committed suicide.
[url=https://www.sgtreport.com/2020/07/what-is-a-fatal-dose-of-fentanyl/][/url]Throw in the fact there is no evidence the knee on the back found during the autopsy caused any trauma nor restricted Floyd's air ways FURTHER is evidence, FACTUAL EVIDENCE, that it is reasonable to conclude Floyd committed suicide.
The prosecution MUST prove beyond a reasonable doubt Chauvin caused Floyd's death. The evidence screams reasonable doubt if not completely proves Chauvin's actions were not the cause of death.

---

Prosecution's counter argument:

Quote:

---

Fentanyl level not fatal
Blood tests conducted as part of Floyd's post-mortem autopsy revealed 11 nanograms per milliliter, or ng/ml, of fentanyl present. According to expert witnesses, this wasn't enough to be considered fatal
Dr. Daniel Isenschmid, a toxicologist at NMS Labs in Pennsylvania, presented data at trial from more than 2,300 blood samples in fentanyl DUI cases from the last year. He showed that while the average fentanyl blood level was close to 9.6 ng/ml, a quarter of people tested had 11 ng/ml or higher. (Important to note: Blood samples were taken from drivers who tested positive for fentanyl and were alive at the time of collection.)
Isenschmid also showed that Floyd's blood ratio of fentanyl to norfentanyl, the molecule fentanyl is broken down to once in the body, was lower than the average ratio both for people who died of overdoses and those arrested for DUI who lived.
Overdose victims who die rarely have norfentanyl in their blood, since death often occurs before the body can break the drug down, he said.
Isenschmid's testimony was supported by pulmonologist and critical care specialist Dr. Martin Tobin of Loyola University Medical Center.
"Mr. Floyd died from a low level of oxygen, and this caused damage to his brain that we see. And it also caused a PEA (pulseless electrical activity) arrhythmia that caused his heart to stop," he told the court. He explained Floyd's body position on the street, handcuffs pulling his arms back and a knee on his neck, back and sides, led to his low oxygen levels.
"All of these four forces are ultimately going to result in the low tidal volume, which gives you the shallow breaths" that can't effectively bring oxygen into the lungs, Tobin said.
He stated because fentanyl typically slows down a person's breathing, the drug was not a contributing factor based on his calculations of Floyd's breathing rate based on witness video, which at the time appeared about the same as a healthy individual.

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/factcheck/2021/04/16/fact-check-fentanyl-george-floyd-not-enough-to-cause-death/7239448002/

---

---

so "I can't breathe" in the car was just a trick?

You could have skipped my post if you weren't going to answer it.

Quote:

---

No really. Fatal levels of fentanyl are just that, FATAL.

---

Apparently, whether or not the amount in his system was "fatal", is disputed. So, let's do the rational thing, and take neither side as concrete fact, and instead as possibilities.

etxag02 also gave you an expert witness counter point here:

Quote:

---

Dr. Daniel Isenschmid, a toxicologist at NMS Labs in Pennsylvania, presented data at trial from more than 2,300 blood samples in fentanyl DUI cases from the last year. He showed that while the average fentanyl blood level was close to 9.6 ng/ml, a quarter of people tested had 11 ng/ml or higher. (Important to note: Blood samples were taken from drivers who tested positive for fentanyl and were alive at the time of collection.)

Isenschmid also showed that Floyd's blood ratio of fentanyl to norfentanyl, the molecule fentanyl is broken down to once in the body, was lower than the average ratio both for people who died of overdoses and those arrested for DUI who lived.

---

I can only assume you picked a side in that debate because of confirmation bias.



also...

Quote:

---

"it felt like too long"

---

You're putting words in that poster's mouth. If you can't be genuine in your retort, then maybe exit the chat.

Thus far, nobody has provided concrete proof that Floyd was going to die that day regardless of whether he ever encountered Chauvin or not.

...which is the proof needed to validate the claim from Page 1 that "ONLY Floyd could have prevented his own death"

Does it not also represent enough 'reasonable doubt' that should have free Chauvin?

jejdag said:

---

Does it not also represent enough 'reasonable doubt' that should have free Chauvin?

---

For me, personally, the existence of reasonable doubt might simply have been just enough to acquit the murder charges, but not necessarily the manslaughter charges, because once again, I do not believe, absent interaction with Chauvin, Floyd would have died that day.

We hold people accountable for manslaughter for looking down at their phone and running someone over with their car. Why wouldn't we hold the officer accountable for what we all saw in the video that lead to Floyd's death?

Some of you act like Chauvin did absolutely nothing wrong, and Floyd's death was written in stone before Chauvin even got the call to respond to the scene.

aggievaulter07 said:

---

richardag,

I'll check it out. Thanks for posting something that wasn't name-calling, or a disingenuous interpretation of my arguments. I mean that.

---

I try to, often fail, to post as if I am talking to my mother.

Quote:

---

Dr. Daniel Isenschmid, a toxicologist at NMS Labs in Pennsylvania, presented data at trial from more than 2,300 blood samples in fentanyl DUI cases from the last year. He showed that while the average fentanyl blood level was close to 9.6 ng/ml, a quarter of people tested had 11 ng/ml or higher. (Important to note: Blood samples were taken from drivers who tested positive for fentanyl and were alive at the time of collection.)

Isenschmid also showed that Floyd's blood ratio of fentanyl to norfentanyl, the molecule fentanyl is broken down to once in the body, was lower than the average ratio both for people who died of overdoses and those arrested for DUI who lived.

---

And how many of those 2,300 samples had Floyd's underlying medical conditions? That testimony is irrelevant without that context.

Here's why:multiple forensic pathologist, including the ME stated they had certified deaths due only to

• the amount of occlusion in his arteries or
• his enlarged heart or
• his hypertension or
• his fentanyl and methamphetamine levels

So those are two, three, four very viable alternatives in the cause of death. ME called it a "multifactorial" cause of death. And that is reasonable doubt.

Have people died with lower levels of fentanyl in their blood?
If yes, the prosecution argument fails as proof beyond reasonable doubt.
In this case the average level of deaths was lower= reasonable doubt.
We can go back and forth endlessly and not change opinions.

Reasonable doubt for which part exactly? There were three charges with varying levels of burden of proof, and each of which carries its own potential for Guilt, or Acquittal.

• Reasonable Doubt for Murder? (Possibly)
• Reasonable Doubt for Manslaughter? (MUCH harder to say, given that 'multifactoral' easily allows for Chauvin's actions to have been one of the factors.)

Which goes back to... absent Chauvin, I'm not convinced Floyd dies. This means manslaughter is the floor for me, not acquittal (at least not on ALL counts).

aggiehawg said:

---

Quote:

---

Dr. Daniel Isenschmid, a toxicologist at NMS Labs in Pennsylvania, presented data at trial from more than 2,300 blood samples in fentanyl DUI cases from the last year. He showed that while the average fentanyl blood level was close to 9.6 ng/ml, a quarter of people tested had 11 ng/ml or higher. (Important to note: Blood samples were taken from drivers who tested positive for fentanyl and were alive at the time of collection.)

Isenschmid also showed that Floyd's blood ratio of fentanyl to norfentanyl, the molecule fentanyl is broken down to once in the body, was lower than the average ratio both for people who died of overdoses and those arrested for DUI who lived.

---

And how many of those 2,300 samples had Floyd's underlying medical conditions? That testimony is irrelevant without that context.

Here's why:multiple forensic pathologist, including the ME stated they had certified deaths due only to

• the amount of occlusion in his arteries or
• his enlarged heart or
• his hypertension or
• his fentanyl and methamphetamine levels

So those are two, three, four very viable alternatives in the cause of death. ME called it a "multifactorial" cause of death. And that is reasonable doubt.

---

Thank you for the post.
Even more reasonable doubt.

Quote:

---

We hold people accountable for manslaughter for looking down at their phone and running someone over with their car. Why wouldn't we hold the officer accountable for what we all saw in the video that lead to Floyd's death?

Some of you act like Chauvin did absolutely nothing wrong, and Floyd's death was written in stone before Chauvin even got the call to respond to the scene.

---

The viral video is just one tiny piece of the evidence. What about the other 17 minutes of the encounter? What about the autopsy results? What about the very slow response of the first responders? What about EMS taking nearly 30 minutes to get to the ER thereafter?

Had EMS arrived in a timely fashion, within three minutes of the Code 3 going out, Floyd was still talking and squirming.

Quote:

---

Floyd was still talking and squirming.

---

Are we to the point of using a man's fight for his life against him now? Would we view this differently if he just gave up much earlier? I'm genuinely asking. Maybe you simply weren't aware that's how that statement would come across... I'm giving you the opportunity to clarify.

richardag said:

---

Have people died with lower levels of fentanyl in their blood?
If yes, the prosecution argument fails as proof beyond reasonable doubt.
In this case the average level of deaths was lower= reasonable doubt.
We can go back and forth endlessly and not change opinions.

---

Continuing to use the prosecution's counter argument, other symptoms of a fentanyl overdose were not apparent in the videos. Just sayin.

Core opinions do not change on this site if you haven't noticed. People know approximately where they want to be on any issue regardless of the facts of a matter or the use of well constructed arguments by any particular party.

aggievaulter07 said:

---

The idea of: "Well, he ***** up! So he should have died" is just...

...man...

---

That's not even remotely the attitude of the majority of people that think Chauvin was not guilty.

Chauvin was doing what he was trained to do and it worked. He subdued the unruly suspect and caused no damage to his airway in the process. At most, he is guilty of manslaughter. He should have checked on Floyd at some point.

Drugs killed George Floyd. His own actions in resisting arrest, contributed by adding stress to his already failing systems. The police could have recognized the dilemma and started life saving procedures to prevent his death.

Manslaughter? Maybe so. Murder 2 & 3 convictions just prove this case was not decided on the facts.

cevans_40 said:

---

etxag02 said:

---

richardag said:

---

aggievaulter07 said:

---

AquaAg1984 said:

---

aggievaulter07 said:

---

You guys are all missing the point.

---

---

....
I just haven't seen any evidence that Floyd would have died that day, absent his interaction with Officer Chauvin.
....

---

I posted this along with the autopsy report, you may want to read both.

https://www.sgtreport.com/2020/07/what-is-a-fatal-dose-of-fentanyl/

[url=https://www.sgtreport.com/2020/07/what-is-a-fatal-dose-of-fentanyl/][/url]

Quote:

---

Despite the ubiquitous presence of multiple drugs in these decedents, the effects of fentanyl were evidently so strong that there were no statistical differences in the fentanyl level (mean and standard deviation) with or without the presence of these co-intoxicants. The range of fentanyl levels was wide, from 0.75 to 113 ng/mL, with an average of 9.96 ng/mL; nevertheless, the distributions of fentanyl levels were statistically the same, whether fentanyl was the only drug in the toxicology or one of several synergistic co-intoxicants. This suggests that fentanyl presence alone seems to be sufficient to cause death, which are findings similar to those found in Sorg et al., 2016."

---

This one fact, stands on its own/by itself, that it was reasonable to believe George Floyd overdosed and committed suicide.
[url=https://www.sgtreport.com/2020/07/what-is-a-fatal-dose-of-fentanyl/][/url]Throw in the fact there is no evidence the knee on the back found during the autopsy caused any trauma nor restricted Floyd's air ways FURTHER is evidence, FACTUAL EVIDENCE, that it is reasonable to conclude Floyd committed suicide.
The prosecution MUST prove beyond a reasonable doubt Chauvin caused Floyd's death. The evidence screams reasonable doubt if not completely proves Chauvin's actions were not the cause of death.

---

Prosecution's counter argument:

Quote:

---

Fentanyl level not fatal
Blood tests conducted as part of Floyd's post-mortem autopsy revealed 11 nanograms per milliliter, or ng/ml, of fentanyl present. According to expert witnesses, this wasn't enough to be considered fatal
Dr. Daniel Isenschmid, a toxicologist at NMS Labs in Pennsylvania, presented data at trial from more than 2,300 blood samples in fentanyl DUI cases from the last year. He showed that while the average fentanyl blood level was close to 9.6 ng/ml, a quarter of people tested had 11 ng/ml or higher. (Important to note: Blood samples were taken from drivers who tested positive for fentanyl and were alive at the time of collection.)
Isenschmid also showed that Floyd's blood ratio of fentanyl to norfentanyl, the molecule fentanyl is broken down to once in the body, was lower than the average ratio both for people who died of overdoses and those arrested for DUI who lived.
Overdose victims who die rarely have norfentanyl in their blood, since death often occurs before the body can break the drug down, he said.
Isenschmid's testimony was supported by pulmonologist and critical care specialist Dr. Martin Tobin of Loyola University Medical Center.
"Mr. Floyd died from a low level of oxygen, and this caused damage to his brain that we see. And it also caused a PEA (pulseless electrical activity) arrhythmia that caused his heart to stop," he told the court. He explained Floyd's body position on the street, handcuffs pulling his arms back and a knee on his neck, back and sides, led to his low oxygen levels.
"All of these four forces are ultimately going to result in the low tidal volume, which gives you the shallow breaths" that can't effectively bring oxygen into the lungs, Tobin said.
He stated because fentanyl typically slows down a person's breathing, the drug was not a contributing factor based on his calculations of Floyd's breathing rate based on witness video, which at the time appeared about the same as a healthy individual.

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/factcheck/2021/04/16/fact-check-fentanyl-george-floyd-not-enough-to-cause-death/7239448002/

---

---

so "I can't breathe" in the car was just a trick?

---

Even before Floyd yes criminals often say this.

Here's a thought question:

How responsible would we hold a person if they punched another person in the face, and that punch jarred a blood clot loose, and the blood clot caused a stroke that kills the person who was punched?

Official Cause of Death: Stroke

But, absent the punch, who's to say when, or if, the stroke would have ever occurred?

The death was obviously accidental, but the punch was intentional. What level of responsibility would you personally assign to the puncher?

aggievaulter07 said:

---

Quote:

---

Floyd was still talking and squirming.

---

Are we to the point of using a man's fight for his life against him now? Would we view this differently if he just gave up much earlier? I'm genuinely asking. Maybe you simply weren't aware that's how that statement would come across... I'm giving you the opportunity to clarify.

---

WOW! You went to someplace completely dark there. Not I.

And it is clear that you did not follow the case nor the timeline..

Fact: Code 2 EMS was made the moment Floyd came out of the squad car.
Fact: The Code 2 was increased in urgency to a Code 3 ninety seconds later.
Fact: Code 3 means lights sirens and get there fast.
Fact: Fire Station 17 is less than half a mile away from 38th and Chicago and located on 38th Street, direct shot.
Fact: Floyd's chances of survival had he received medical attention while still conscious would have increased.

So where did I say anything about blaming Floyd for not giving up sooner?

russ05,

That's a well reasoned response, without hyperbole, or projection. I tend to agree with almost, but not quite every single word, believe it or not. At least you are entertaining the idea of manslaughter, which is the charge I'm most confident in, given what I think I know about the case. I certainly don't know everything.

Quote:

---

So where did I say anything about blaming Floyd for not giving up sooner?

---

I didn't say you did. I asked for clarification, with the understanding that I might have misunderstood the reason for you pointing that out.

aggievaulter07 said:

---

Here's a thought question:

How responsible would we hold a person if they punched another person in the face, and that punch jarred a blood clot loose, and the blood clot caused a stroke that kills the person who was punched?

Official Cause of Death: Stroke

But, absent the punch, who's to say when, or if, the stroke would have ever occurred?

The death was obviously accidental, but the punch was intentional. What level of responsibility would you personally assign to the puncher?

---

Who was the instigator? If the person with the clot sucker punched someone else and they fought back in self defense? Then they would have that defense in a criminal case.

Might still be held civilly liable however.

russ05 said:

---

aggievaulter07 said:

---

The idea of: "Well, he ***** up! So he should have died" is just...

...man...

---

That's not even remotely the attitude of the majority of people that think Chauvin was not guilty.

Chauvin was doing what he was trained to do and it worked. He subdued the unruly suspect and caused no damage to his airway in the process. At most, he is guilty of manslaughter. He should have checked on Floyd at some point.

Drugs killed George Floyd. His own actions in resisting arrest, contributed by adding stress to his already failing systems. The police could have recognized the dilemma and started life saving procedures to prevent his death.

Manslaughter? Maybe so. Murder 2 & 3 convictions just prove this case was not decided on the facts.

---

Didn't his training officer testify that wasn't the case?

ebdb_bnb said:

---

russ05 said:

---

aggievaulter07 said:

---

The idea of: "Well, he ***** up! So he should have died" is just...

...man...

---

That's not even remotely the attitude of the majority of people that think Chauvin was not guilty.

Chauvin was doing what he was trained to do and it worked. He subdued the unruly suspect and caused no damage to his airway in the process. At most, he is guilty of manslaughter. He should have checked on Floyd at some point.

Drugs killed George Floyd. His own actions in resisting arrest, contributed by adding stress to his already failing systems. The police could have recognized the dilemma and started life saving procedures to prevent his death.

Manslaughter? Maybe so. Murder 2 & 3 convictions just prove this case was not decided on the facts.

---

Didn't his training officer testify that wasn't the case?

---

No. Lt. Mercil testified he had used a knee restraint and even for longer than 10 minutes before, during his service on patrol. He's also the one who taught that if a suspect is talking, they are breathing.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/nation/2021/04/06/live-updates-chauvin-trial-resumes-after-police-chief-condemns-officer-absolutely-violating-policy-while-restraining-floyd/

Several experts said with certainty that Chauvin's neck restraint of Floyd was against guidance. "We tell officers to stay away from the neck when possible," said Minneapolis Police Lt. Johnny Mercil, the use-of-force coordinator for the department. He called the restraint unauthorized and described it as "active aggression."

• Mercil testified that suspects should be put in recovery position "as soon as possible" once they are prone to allow them to breathe.

Transcript of cross examination of Mercil is HERE

Chauvin's knee is not on Floyd's neck, on his shoulder blades, not a neck restraint but is a body weight restraint as taught to MPD officers. Hold for EMS, etc.

Ok, so he is answering questions about still photos that were clipped from video. Is it not advantageous to the defense to use the video? I gave you his words. Link the prosecution's questions.

ebdb_bnb said:

---

Ok, so he is answering questions about still photos that were clipped from video. Is it not advantageous to the defense to use the video? I gave you his words.

---

To determine placement of the shin bone, a still photo provides clearer evidence for the witness to be able to identify location. But the progression as done by Nelson here shows there was a number of minutes where Chauvin's knee is clearly on Floyd's shoulder or back, not his neck. And that same is a type of using body weight as a restraint.

aggievaulter07 said:

---

Thus far, nobody has provided concrete proof that Floyd was going to die that day regardless of whether he ever encountered Chauvin or not.

...which is the proof needed to validate the claim from Page 1 that "ONLY Floyd could have prevented his own death"

---

Thus, so far, no one has presented proof the actions of chauvin killed floyd. It's all just optics.

RGLAG85 said:

---

aggievaulter07 said:

---

Thus far, nobody has provided concrete proof that Floyd was going to die that day regardless of whether he ever encountered Chauvin or not.

...which is the proof needed to validate the claim from Page 1 that "ONLY Floyd could have prevented his own death"

---

Thus, so far, no one has presented proof the actions of chauvin killed floyd. It's all just optics.

---

People still do not understand that the burden to prove Floyd didn't die from the other factors is on the prosecution, not the defense. The defense can raise those other causes as substantial factors in his death to create reasonable doubt but they don't have the burden of proof.

Hence they make arguments like the one bolded. Fundamental misunderstanding of how criminal trials are supposed to work.