aginresearch said:

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At what point did the suspect become unconscious in relation to when medical personnel arrived on the scene? Could anything be done by the officers with tools they had available to resuscitate the Mr. Floyd?

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When it comes to the manslaughter charge the key, IMO, will be whether or not the knee in the neck after Floyd went unconscious is the ultimate cause of death.

The murder charge is out (or should be and it'll be a tragedy if he's found guilty). This is all about if Chauvin was negligent and that negligence caused Floyd's death more than the drugs.

My thoughts too. Not a lawyer, just using common sense.

As posted previously, Floyd was dead/dying when they walked him across the street from effects of OD.

aginresearch said:

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At what point did the suspect become unconscious in relation to when medical personnel arrived on the scene? Could anything be done by the officers with tools they had available to resuscitate the Mr. Floyd?

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I wondered if they might have had Narcan available. However, depending on how much they might have had, if they had any, they would have to keep giving him more every few minutes until the paramedics arrived.

If they didn't have any, then there probably wasn't anything they could do. Since he wouldn't even get in the car, it's not like they could have driven him to the nearest emergency room even if they were permitted to do so.

RedHand said:

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waitwhat? said:

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aggiehawg said:

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waitwhat? said:

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aggiehawg said:

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EazyEmac said:

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For those who haven't followed..... if he was having an overdose, why wasn't aid administered?

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They called EMS code 3 meaning lights and sirens, get here now! Both fire and EMS responded to the call but dispatch didn't give them the correct address and there was a delay.

FTR: The dispatcher witness and printout of the 911 call from Cup Foods that started the encounter showed squad 330 made the Code 3 call. That Chauvin's squad car. 320 was Lane and Kueng.

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I don't think that calling for an ambulance qualifies as "rendering aid."

The officers will have to answer for the moments between Floyd stopping breathing and the ambulance arriving.

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Not if the police manual says otherwise.

And further even the firefighter said she would call 911 for further aid because she didn't have narcan pen nor a breathing bag on her and they don't do mouth to mouth anymore. All she would have been able to do is chest compressions which may or may not have had any effect as Floyd's lungs were filling with fluid..

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I agree with you Hawg. I wish they were covering these points. These are the nuances that matter, not "how did you feel?"

IMHO this will come down to 1) did Chauvin's knee directly contribute to Floyd's death, and 2) if Chauvin had removed his knee when the resisting was over, would Floyd be alive

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These are already addresses in the official ME report.

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No it isn't and this is mentioned earlier in this thread. The ME gives some facts and some speculation, but falls short of showing or stating that the cause of death was definitely OD.

Literally all I want to see in this trial is what medical experts will testify was the cause of death, in their opinion.

aginresearch said:

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At what point did the suspect become unconscious in relation to when medical personnel arrived on the scene? Could anything be done by the officers with tools they had available to resuscitate Mr. Floyd?

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That is subject to interpretation low end about two minutes, high end around 4 minutes.

On all of the bystander videos, Code 3 was called before they even arrived on the scene.

Again there was miscommunication between dispatch and EMS and fire. How is that the officer's fault?

What was negligent about keeping the knee on the neck? You're assuming he was not authorized to so.

waitwhat? said:

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aginresearch said:

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At what point did the suspect become unconscious in relation to when medical personnel arrived on the scene? Could anything be done by the officers with tools they had available to resuscitate the Mr. Floyd?

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When it comes to the manslaughter charge the key, IMO, will be whether or not the knee in the neck after Floyd went unconscious is the ultimate cause of death.

The murder charge is out (or should be and it'll be a tragedy if he's found guilty). This is all about if Chauvin was negligent and that negligence caused Floyd's death more than the drugs.

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How was he negligent?

aggiehawg said:

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Again there was miscommunication between dispatch and EMS and fire. How is that the officer's fault?

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Good question and Firefighter Hanson opened the door to pointing the blame at dispatch. In her quest to be a hero she gave the defense an opening to make the case the officers did everything by the book.

NewOldAg said:

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What was negligent about keeping the knee on the neck? You're assuming he was not and should not have done that.

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What was the point of keeping the knee on his neck after he was unconscious?

That was the point of the defense's questioning the MMA guy about how often people go unconscious and come back immediately trying to fight. It was a good argument the defense made and was specifically centered on this question, should Chauvin have kept his knee on Floyd's neck after he went unconscious.

We have a lot of facts to be discovered here and I wish we'd get past the emotional part.

aginlakeway said:

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Marvin_Zindler said:

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In a sane world, Chauvin would walk free.

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He never would have been charged.

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Wish this would have been the case...but of course everything (and I mean everything) would have burned.

aginlakeway said:

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waitwhat? said:

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aginresearch said:

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At what point did the suspect become unconscious in relation to when medical personnel arrived on the scene? Could anything be done by the officers with tools they had available to resuscitate the Mr. Floyd?

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When it comes to the manslaughter charge the key, IMO, will be whether or not the knee in the neck after Floyd went unconscious is the ultimate cause of death.

The murder charge is out (or should be and it'll be a tragedy if he's found guilty). This is all about if Chauvin was negligent and that negligence caused Floyd's death more than the drugs.

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How was he negligent?

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If you are kneeing someone's neck, and you know or should know that this can shut off someone's bloodflow to the brain or airway, and they go unconscious, I would consider it negligence to continue doing that action rather than trying to check for a pulse and taking necessary actions to revive him.

Stop being so closed off to the idea that Chauvin actually did something wrong, and potentially criminally wrong here.

Know or should know is a huge thing in something like this.

The reason why is because Floyd resisted arrest. The duration of the knee is likely mandated by police manuals. So if Chauvin was acting according to the manuals, where is the negligence?

Quote:

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Know or should know is a huge thing in something like this.

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In a wrongful death civil case yes. In a criminal case of murder charges? Not as much.

aggiehawg said:

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Quote:

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That was the point of the defense's questioning the MMA guy about how often people go unconscious and come back immediately trying to fight. It was a good argument the defense made and was specifically centered on this question, should Chauvin have kept his knee on Floyd's neck after he went unconscious.

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How is Chauvin or any of the officers to know Floyd just wasn't playing possum? If they let up he'd try to escape or inflict harm to himself or others.

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Which was the point of the defense questioning the MMA guy about if some people come back fighting. To justify keeping the knee on the neck.

What I think the prosecution will use is the fact that they could have checked for a pulse using his wrist and without letting off the neck. It's the little things like that that will make the difference.

aggiehawg said:

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Quote:

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That was the point of the defense's questioning the MMA guy about how often people go unconscious and come back immediately trying to fight. It was a good argument the defense made and was specifically centered on this question, should Chauvin have kept his knee on Floyd's neck after he went unconscious.

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How is Chauvin or any of the officers to know Floyd just wasn't playing possum? If they let up he'd try to escape or inflict harm to himself or others.

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Excellent point...follow the book.

aggiehawg said:

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Quote:

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Know or should know is a huge thing in something like this.

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In a wrongful death civil case yes. In a criminal case of murder charges? Not as much.

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He should be acquitted of murder. But does the "should know" part not matter in manslaughter where negligence is a factor? Honest question, I don't know.

waitwhat? said:

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aggiehawg said:

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Quote:

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That was the point of the defense's questioning the MMA guy about how often people go unconscious and come back immediately trying to fight. It was a good argument the defense made and was specifically centered on this question, should Chauvin have kept his knee on Floyd's neck after he went unconscious.

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How is Chauvin or any of the officers to know Floyd just wasn't playing possum? If they let up he'd try to escape or inflict harm to himself or others.

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Which was the point of the defense questioning the MMA guy about if some people come back fighting. To justify keeping the knee on the neck.

What I think the prosecution will use is the fact that they could have checked for a pulse using his wrist and without letting off the neck. It's the little things like that that will make the difference.

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Do we know that they didn't?

This sure is a long break.

UncleNateFitch said:

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waitwhat? said:

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aggiehawg said:

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Quote:

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That was the point of the defense's questioning the MMA guy about how often people go unconscious and come back immediately trying to fight. It was a good argument the defense made and was specifically centered on this question, should Chauvin have kept his knee on Floyd's neck after he went unconscious.

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How is Chauvin or any of the officers to know Floyd just wasn't playing possum? If they let up he'd try to escape or inflict harm to himself or others.

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Which was the point of the defense questioning the MMA guy about if some people come back fighting. To justify keeping the knee on the neck.

What I think the prosecution will use is the fact that they could have checked for a pulse using his wrist and without letting off the neck. It's the little things like that that will make the difference.

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Do we know that they didn't?

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Not that I know of, which is why I'm waiting for more facts to come out.

Everyone can lay off, I'm not definitively saying Chauvin is guilty of anything. All I'm saying is we can't immediately assume he's innocent of manslaughter. I feel like the only one actually waiting for the relevant facts to come out.

waitwhat? said:

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aginlakeway said:

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waitwhat? said:

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aginresearch said:

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At what point did the suspect become unconscious in relation to when medical personnel arrived on the scene? Could anything be done by the officers with tools they had available to resuscitate the Mr. Floyd?

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When it comes to the manslaughter charge the key, IMO, will be whether or not the knee in the neck after Floyd went unconscious is the ultimate cause of death.

The murder charge is out (or should be and it'll be a tragedy if he's found guilty). This is all about if Chauvin was negligent and that negligence caused Floyd's death more than the drugs.

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How was he negligent?

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If you are kneeing someone's neck, and you know or should know that this can shut off someone's bloodflow to the brain or airway, and they go unconscious, I would consider it negligence to continue doing that action rather than trying to check for a pulse and taking necessary actions to revive him.

Stop being so closed off to the idea that Chauvin actually did something wrong, and potentially criminally wrong here.

Know or should know is a huge thing in something like this.

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You are mixing and matching two separate elments:

1. Whether or not the knee on the neck was a substantial factor in causing Floyd's death is a causation question.

2. Whether or not Chauvin knew that the knee to the neck might cause death or serious bodily harm is an intent question.

The state must prove both that Chauvin had some level of criminal intent (whether that was intentional--murder-depraved mind--3rd degree murder--reckless--manslaughter (don't think criminally negligent homicide is an option here, but I haven't been following closely enough to know the details on the charges), and causation, but the two are completely separate issues.

waitwhat? said:

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UncleNateFitch said:

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waitwhat? said:

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aggiehawg said:

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Quote:

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That was the point of the defense's questioning the MMA guy about how often people go unconscious and come back immediately trying to fight. It was a good argument the defense made and was specifically centered on this question, should Chauvin have kept his knee on Floyd's neck after he went unconscious.

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How is Chauvin or any of the officers to know Floyd just wasn't playing possum? If they let up he'd try to escape or inflict harm to himself or others.

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Which was the point of the defense questioning the MMA guy about if some people come back fighting. To justify keeping the knee on the neck.

What I think the prosecution will use is the fact that they could have checked for a pulse using his wrist and without letting off the neck. It's the little things like that that will make the difference.

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Do we know that they didn't?

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Not that I know of, which is why I'm waiting for more facts to come out.

Everyone can lay off, I'm not definitively saying Chauvin is guilty of anything. All I'm saying is we can't immediately assume he's innocent of manslaughter. I feel like the only one actually waiting for the relevant facts to come out.

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Why do you keep assuming I'm jumping up your ass? You and I seem to be more or less on the same page.

aggiehawg said:

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Quote:

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What I think the prosecution will use is the fact that they could have checked for a pulse using his wrist and without letting off the neck. It's the little things like that that will make the difference.

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Now you are just being argumentative because you know the police did check his wrist for a pulse just before the ambulance was pulling.up.

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I definitely enjoy playing devils' advocate. Fully admit it.

I just want to see the truth come out and justice be served, whatever it may be.

waitwhat? said:

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aggiehawg said:

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waitwhat? said:

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Where is the witness list you refer to?

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I have been looking for it unsuccessfully. Maybe someone else with subscriptions can find it?

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I found it: https://dwkcommentaries.com/2021/02/17/witness-lists-for-the-derek-chauvin-criminal-trial/

How could they possibly find 185 civilian witnesses? There weren't 185 people on the scene!

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If you are working by the hour, and in the spotlight, you might well find witnesses who had not yet been born.

UncleNateFitch said:

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waitwhat? said:

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UncleNateFitch said:

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waitwhat? said:

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aggiehawg said:

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Quote:

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That was the point of the defense's questioning the MMA guy about how often people go unconscious and come back immediately trying to fight. It was a good argument the defense made and was specifically centered on this question, should Chauvin have kept his knee on Floyd's neck after he went unconscious.

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How is Chauvin or any of the officers to know Floyd just wasn't playing possum? If they let up he'd try to escape or inflict harm to himself or others.

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Which was the point of the defense questioning the MMA guy about if some people come back fighting. To justify keeping the knee on the neck.

What I think the prosecution will use is the fact that they could have checked for a pulse using his wrist and without letting off the neck. It's the little things like that that will make the difference.

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Do we know that they didn't?

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Not that I know of, which is why I'm waiting for more facts to come out.

Everyone can lay off, I'm not definitively saying Chauvin is guilty of anything. All I'm saying is we can't immediately assume he's innocent of manslaughter. I feel like the only one actually waiting for the relevant facts to come out.

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Why do you keep assuming I'm jumping up your ass? You and I seem to be more or less on the same page.

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Not you, I just meant in general.

Next witness

He's a cop.

Nice pony tail

we're back, have a police lieutenant on the stand

Quote:

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Not that I know of, which is why I'm waiting for more facts to come out.

Everyone can lay off, I'm not definitively saying Chauvin is guilty of anything. All I'm saying is we can't immediately assume he's innocent of manslaughter. I feel like the only one actually waiting for the relevant facts to come out.

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Uncalled for post is deleted. I think we need to hear the evidence too.

Business tech unit. Can't wait to hear his take on chokeholds.

So in non-legal terms, snooty EMT lady said that there is no way they shouldn't respond in at least three minutes. Chauvin called in the EMS. I think it's pretty easy to surmise that him restraining Floyd, time is flying with all the outside action going on, yelling, resistance, more yelling by the lookie lous. "Three" minutes can turn into 7-9 quickly.

Not going to argue when Floyd goes limp, I'm betting he has seen several times when a perp goes limp, pauses, etc to buy time or try to run. Unfortunate, but likely common. Whole lot of doubt if the jury was using logic and suppressing emotion.

Manages records and software systems for the MPD. He will be the foundational witness to get a lot of records into evidence.

When the paramedics showed up and the knee was still on the guy i think is the worst look.

In a perfect world, when Floyd was fading they should have picked him up and throw him in the car. He was too weak to fight back at that point and if Floyd was faking it, throw him back down. Four cops vs. drugged out dude in handcuffs wouldn't be hard to take back down in my opinion.