justcallmeharry said:

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schwack schwack said:

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9 year old witness coming up after the break. This seems to be for punishment phase if Chauvin is convicted. If a crime is committed in front of children (including the previous 3 minors) any sentence can be doubled per commentary I just heard.

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Wow, Harry.

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The CBSN commentators were apparently incorrect about the age of the next witness. FYI - in their view, the prosecution is presenting a compelling case. This witness does sound about 9 years old.

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Of course they would say that. It has to fit their narrative.

I don't know that the case is "compelling." The video footage is what is compelling. A lot of these witnesses are unnecessary.

So based on a football score, where are we? Team George 14 Team Derek 3 in the first quarter maybe?

texsn95 said:

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So based on a football score, where are we? Team George 14 Team Derek 3 in the first quarter maybe?

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I don't have a score for you but thus far, the witnesses have offered nothing but speculation and emotion.

Dumb_Loggy said:

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justcallmeharry said:

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schwack schwack said:

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Quote:

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9 year old witness coming up after the break. This seems to be for punishment phase if Chauvin is convicted. If a crime is committed in front of children (including the previous 3 minors) any sentence can be doubled per commentary I just heard.

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Wow, Harry.

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The CBSN commentators were apparently incorrect about the age of the next witness. FYI - in their view, the prosecution is presenting a compelling case. This witness does sound about 9 years old.

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Of course they would say that. It has to fit their narrative.

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And of course, I would not disagree with your point.

I'm not cherry-picking, I was doing you a favor because you said you hadn't read it. I posted this in full (and the source):

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How injury occurred: Decedent experienced a cardiopulmonary arrest while being restrained by law enforcement officer(s)

Other significant conditions: Arteriosclerotic and hypertensive heart disease; fentanyl intoxication; recent methamphetamine use

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Then I typed the relevant fentanyl comments from the medical examiners notes (and the source)

To date, the only thing that has happened is the introduction into evidence of a number of videos and witnesses describing how they felt as they watched.

There is still a long way to go for the prosecution.

Cactus Jack said:

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I don't know that the case is "compelling." The video footage is what is compelling. A lot of these witnesses are unnecessary.

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This. An attorney who browbeats a jury with unnecessary witnesses may find the jury loses patience with said attorney. At some point, they start to tune them out.

It boils down to:
A) Floyd would have lived if not for Chauvin
OR
B) Floyd would have lived if not for drugs

If A is true, Chauvin guilty. If B is true, Chauvin not guilty. What is scary for police, if A is true ONLY because of the presence of drugs.

Fair enough, sorry to insult.

I still think after having now read it that it doesn't provide any definitive cause of death. There's more to learn here. But the murder charge is and has always been absurd.

NewOldAg said:

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It boils down to:
A) Floyd would have lived if not for Chauvin
OR
B) Floyd would have lived if not for drugs

If A is true, Chauvin guilty. If B is true, Chauvin not guilty. What is scary for police, if A is true ONLY because of the presence of drugs.

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Agree, except I think we can all agree that kneeling on someone's neck is and should be a practice of the past.

Again, murder is an absurd charge and has been for the last 10ish months.

NewOldAg said:

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It boils down to:
A) Floyd would have lived if not for Chauvin
OR
B) Floyd would have lived if not for drugs

If A is true, Chauvin guilty. If B is true, Chauvin not guilty. What is scary for police, if A is true ONLY because of the presence of drugs.

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No. B is wrong. That's not the question at all. Prosecution must prove: (1) requisite intent; and (2) causation.

The fact that Floyd was on drugs and made him more susceptible to dying would not absolve Chauvin if Floyd would have lived but for Chauvin kneeling on him.

Conversely, if Floyd was a dead man regardless of Chauvin kneeling on him (and it didn't speed up the process), then Chauvin is not guilty.

The ME defines how George Floyd died in the first few statements of the 302, past the general info stuff:

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Quote:
... [Introductions, etc.]

The case title of "Cardiopulmonary arrest complicating law enforcement subdual, restraint, and neck compression" mirrors the cause of death. A manner of death was not listed because that was the procedure at the Hennepin County Medical Examiner's office.

... [More general, and background information]

[Paraphrasing:] Autopsy 12 hours post-mortem is normal and routine. Blood samples used for tox reports.

Cardiopulmonary arrest defined for a lay person would be the stopping of the heart and lungs. Other factors that contributed to Floyd's cardiopulmonary arrest included hypertension, the presence of fentanyl and methamphetamine, as well as arteriosclerotic heart disease.

The term "complicating" in the case title was a medical term meaning occurring after, during, or as a result of.

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So, to help explain the case title and the cause of death listed on the ME report:

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Quote:
Cardiopulmonary arrest occurring after, during, or as a result of law enforcement subdual, restraint, and neck compression

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Some will pick out the term "contributed to" Floyd's cardio event but "contributed" is not the same as "result of". People are allowed to live unhealthy lifestyles and they shouldn't have to train to be in peak physical health to receive continuing police abuse (allegedly).

Also, the ME explained why he couldn't answer the "but for" clause. He stated that he didn't know what combination of physical exertion and/or stress would trigger cardiac arrest. It was stated that he was healthy enough to play basketball and help another move furniture. Obviously, the physical exertion from a police officer's knee is different from playing basketball.

Also, the ME in the 302 walked backed his statement about if Floyd had been found alone as Floyd did not die alone. In fact, I believe - IIRC - he further states in the 302 that he has no other reason to believe Floyd would not still be alive today had it not been for the actions of Chauvin.

schwack schwack said:

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Quote:

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9 year old witness coming up after the break. This seems to be for punishment phase if Chauvin is convicted. If a crime is committed in front of children (including the previous 3 minors) any sentence can be doubled per commentary I just heard.

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Wow, Harry.

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The same inane commentators just clarified that the enhancement is rarely used.

Then you have that sticky "reasonable doubt" part.

This is just cumulative at this point. Especially since every bit of what this person saw is on video. Adds nothing, and how it made her feel, or what she believed was happening to "George" physically, is irrelevant. "Derek" is not on trial for hurting the feels of these WT bystanders.

"Conversely, if Floyd was a dead man regardless of Chauvin kneeling on him (and it didn't speed up the process), then Chauvin is not guilty."

Somewhat repeating my earlier post, Floyd was dying when they walked him across the street.

Drugs caused this death.

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Some will pick out the term "contributed to" Floyd's cardio event but "contributed" is not the same as "result of".

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This. If I insult someone and they punch me, and I turn out to have some brain condition (I don't) and fall over dead as a result of that punch, the puncher shouldn't be charged with murder. Or manslaughter, frankly.

This case is all about the nuances, which makes it fascinating.

BourbonAg said:

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Then you have that sticky "reasonable doubt" part.

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Correct. On causation, the defense just wants the jury to conclude that Chauvin kneeling on Floyd might not have made any difference in the ultimate outcome, that Floyd was dying from the drugs he ingested, and that the kneeling, even if wrong, might not have played any significant role in his death.

Defense will also try to sow doubt on causation, by showing that Chauvin lacked the requisite intent, and intent seems to be what today's witnesses are addressing. Which makes sense for the prosecution--the medical evidence is going to be tough for them, so better to focus on the first element, even if that is not a lay down.

Stupid@17 said:

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Seeing a lot of guilty until proven innocent talk in here.

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True.

Sadly I think that is the position Chauvin is in at this point.

Everyone wants to see him hang, and prosecution is only making it worse by playing on the emotions of the jury.

While I tend to agree with you, there is an entire body of law (although based in tort) called the Eggshell Skull rule that leads to some wacky results.

Troy91 said:

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To date, the only thing that has happened is the introduction into evidence of a number of videos and witnesses describing how they felt as they watched.

There is still a long way to go for the prosecution.

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So far what has been established:
- Clerk called 911 for passing counterfeit bill describing Mr. Floyd as appearing intoxicated.
- Dispatcher notifies squad and then requests backup twice after monitoring situation. Officer Chauvin is part of third notification.
- Officer Chauvin's squad called EMS once Mr. Floyd was restrained.
- Multiple people came onto the scene after this point when Mr. Floyd was restrained and on the ground. Opinion of the six of those people brought before the jury is that Officer Chauvin continued to put his knee into Mr. Floyd's neck after it was no longer necessary and continued until EMS requested him to stop.
- Multiple videos from this point until the EMS arrives exist and have been entered into evidence.

The rest is just fluff.

real quick BourbonAg, whats a good cheap bourbon that I can go grab at the liquor store that will surprise me?

BourbonAg said:

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While I tend to agree with you, there is an entire body of law (although based in tort) called the Eggshell Skull rule that leads to some wacky results.

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Correct. I'm no medical expert, but lets say you have a blood vessel condition in your brain which is likely to kill you at some point, but that it's the punch that causes it to burst at that particular time. You may lack the requisite intent for murder, but you'd be guilty of some lesser (but still serious) felony because you shortened the victim's life by some degree.

Socrates05 said:

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Troy91 said:

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To date, the only thing that has happened is the introduction into evidence of a number of videos and witnesses describing how they felt as they watched.

There is still a long way to go for the prosecution.

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So far what has been established:
- Clerk called 911 for passing counterfeit bill describing Mr. Floyd as appearing intoxicated.
- Dispatcher notifies squad and then requests backup twice after monitoring situation. Officer Chauvin is part of third notification.
- Officer Chauvin's squad called EMS once Mr. Floyd was restrained.
- Multiple people came onto the scene after this point when Mr. Floyd was restrained and on the ground. Opinion of the six of those people brought before the jury is that Officer Chauvin continued to put his knee into Mr. Floyd's neck after it was no longer necessary and continues until EMS request him to stop.
- Multiple videos from this point until the EMS arrives exist and have been entered into evidence.

The rest is just fluff.

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Thank you for adding in yesterday's timeline witnesses.

Yesterday's witnesses made much more sense to building the foundation of the facts of the case than do today's witnesses.

What's happening now?

Has the prosecution shown any of the police bodycam videos that show Floyd saying "I can't breathe" when he was just sitting in the car?

I would think they would want to get out in front of that.

jjdad1111 said:

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What's happening now?

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Currently in a recess.

They have not

Very Old Barton 100 proof bottled in bond. Has a white label.

Listening to the prosecution so far:

[url] [/url]

waitwhat? said:

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Some will pick out the term "contributed to" Floyd's cardio event but "contributed" is not the same as "result of".

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This. If I insult someone and they punch me, and I turn out to have some brain condition (I don't) and fall over dead as a result of that punch, the puncher shouldn't be charged with murder. Or manslaughter, frankly.

This case is all about the nuances, which makes it fascinating.

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Difference here is if you punched him, and then kept punching him after he fell. It was noted at 5:30 mins of the hold that he was passed out, they checked the pulse the first time at 6:30 mins, and again after that (don't remember the time I saw earlier). Chauvin kept the restraint for an additional ~ 4 mins after Floyd was essentially "neutralized" as a threat.

In you're example, you may have thrown the punch but you stopped because you saw it adversely affected someone. It's also called a "mercy" to not continue to punish the offender.

We're back.

2PacShakur said:

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waitwhat? said:

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Quote:

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Some will pick out the term "contributed to" Floyd's cardio event but "contributed" is not the same as "result of".

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This. If I insult someone and they punch me, and I turn out to have some brain condition (I don't) and fall over dead as a result of that punch, the puncher shouldn't be charged with murder. Or manslaughter, frankly.

This case is all about the nuances, which makes it fascinating.

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Difference here is if you punched him, and then kept punching him after he fell. It was noted at 5:30 mins of the hold that he was passed out, they checked the pulse the first time at 6:30 mins, and again after that (don't remember the time I saw earlier). Chauvin kept the restraint for an additional ~ 4 mins after Floyd was essentially "neutralized" as a threat.

In you're example, you may have thrown the punch but you stopped because you saw it adversely affected someone. It's also called a "mercy" to not continue to punish the offender.

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Still wouldn't be murder.