TexAgs91 said:

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I can't see NASA risking another shuttle and another crew that would be susceptible to the exact same design flaw as Columbia without taking time to reduce the risk of falling debris as much as possible.

That would take time.

If Columbia wasn't going to reenter they would have had enough fuel I think to change their orbit plane and make it to the ISS which would have bought them more time.

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They wouldn't have had enough fuel. They actually estimated the amount that they needed to go to the ISS and the shuttle had less than 4% of what it would've taken to move from Columbia's 36-degree inclination to the ISS's 51.6-degree inclination.

They had nowhere near enough fuel to make it to ISS. It's discussed in the article.

After reading that article and the comments below it I don't think there was any way NASA was going to be able to mount a rescue mission. Such a sad time.

I remember it as a Saturday morning if I recall correctly and I remember exactly where I was when I first heard the news. Terrible.

double aught said:

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They had nowhere near enough fuel to make it to ISS. It's discussed in the article.

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OK, I remember someone at NASA saying it took about the same amount of fuel to de-orbit as it would to change planes to the ISS.

Then I don't think NASA would have risked another crew and vehicle that soon.

TexAgs91 said:

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I can't see NASA risking another shuttle and another crew that would be susceptible to the exact same design flaw as Columbia without taking time to reduce the risk of falling debris as much as possible.

That would take time.

If Columbia wasn't going to reenter they would have had enough fuel I think to change their orbit plane and make it to the ISS which would have bought them more time.

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Considering they had shrugged off the risk many times before, I could see it. The difference is between maybe losing another shuttle and crew versus definitely losing a shuttle and crew. At that point, I'd try to get everyone home if another crew is willing to volunteer.

Yeah, they kept sending them up after Columbia even though they never fully solved the problem, just mitigated it to an extent.

I believe a rescue was possible and would have had better then even odds of succeeding had it been attempted.

But it would have required the same people who dismissed the foam strike concerns to be persuaded to destroy one orbiter and risk a second one based on likely inconclusive data and risk assessments.

And that was an impossibility.

Booster 7 now rolling to the sticks.

— Chris Bergin - NSF (@NASASpaceflight) March 29, 2023

Good sign of some progress/completion of that layer of insulating steel etc. around the OLT platform/deck/stand thing.

This temperature, over a period of hours, with high humidity and people in suits, very probably would have been fatal had three people returned to Earth inside the damaged Soyuz.

— Eric Berger (@SciGuySpace) March 29, 2023

50C = 122F
That's a really crappy way to go if you slowly stew to death. Would take water and ventilation, which I assume aren't exactly in great supply in those Soyuz modules. Would be like sitting in your own coffin.

lb3 said:

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I believe a rescue was possible and would have had better then even odds of succeeding had it been attempted.

But it would have required the same people who dismissed the foam strike concerns to be persuaded to destroy one orbiter and risk a second one based on likely inconclusive data and risk assessments.

And that was an impossibility.

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I think the problem was that those people buried their heads in the sand. They didn't want to know if there was a problem because that in and of itself would be a problem. They *could* have done a check of the tiles that would have been pretty definitive but ultimately chose not to.

PJYoung said:

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After reading that article and the comments below it I don't think there was any way NASA was going to be able to mount a rescue mission. Such a sad time.

I remember it as a Saturday morning if I recall correctly and I remember exactly where I was when I first heard the news. Terrible.

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What if the people at the top did know about the damage and choose not to do anything? They could have easily made the decision to not risk another crew and vehicle on a rescue mission and kept it a secret. Then NASA doesn't have to publicly make the decision to let them die. Just feign ignorance and let it happen……
I hate to even have that thought and hope that wasn't the case. But it's not out of the realm of possibilities.

PJYoung said:

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This temperature, over a period of hours, with high humidity and people in suits, very probably would have been fatal had three people returned to Earth inside the damaged Soyuz.

— Eric Berger (@SciGuySpace) March 29, 2023

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One of my coworkers was listening in on that press conference. I'd assume it's from the coolant leak.

Vulcan Centaur slips again. Some weird wording on this, like they are trying not to blame Blue Origin this time. Ground systems glitches. So WDR's are not just a challenge for starship…

Some news: Dream Chaser’s debut is delayed until at least mid-December. This extends NASA’s reliance on Falcon 9 for crew *and* cargo. More critically, it also raises questions about Vulcan’s launch manifest and path to certification. https://t.co/DKJuH2UAhX

— Eric Berger (@SciGuySpace) March 24, 2023

Maybe they should have spent less time on they paint job, although it looks good.

So wow, how can you get delayed until December? That's basically saying it won't happen this year as another delay will happen.

I think it's supposed to go up on the third launch now. First two are for NSA 'certification' purposes to handle classified stuff.

Funny thing is on the paint job Bruno wanted a design with flames and stuff on it but the marketing guys told him that was a bad look for a rocket that might explode. LOL.

The paint job was done while they were waiting on Blue Origin. It was done before mid October of last year, pretty sure before Blue even shipped the first BE-4

Looks like Virgin Orbit is done

Scoop – Virgin Orbit $VORB is ceasing operations “for the foreseeable future” after failing to secure a funding lifeline and is laying off 90% of workforce, CEO Dan Hart just said in an all-hands meeting, per audio obtained by CNBC:https://t.co/otaVnrjUGq

— Michael Sheetz (@thesheetztweetz) March 30, 2023

That's a shame, I hate to see any of the launch startups fail. It was a cool concept at minimum.

Yes, though it really wasn't a very good business model with per kilogram costs dropping so much via the other options. The other guys are moving to larger rockets (even for small payloads) and Virgin Orbit didn't have those options. It all fell apart over the failure of a little fuel filter on their 2023/final launch.

Virgin Galactic is separate and I guess still moving along on their path, having sold a bunch of tickets. It sounds more like a touristy gimmick to me, but whatever.

VO might have survived if they had increased their launch cadence, but they failed to do that. They were going 6 months between launches, way too long, and too few launches.

double aught said:

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Yeah, they kept sending them up after Columbia even though they never fully solved the problem, just mitigated it to an extent.

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I think that's a bit of an understatement regarding "mitigated it to an extent". There were many changes, upgrades, and additional tools NASA made as part of their SSP Return to Flight program. My first project at NASA was one of those: micro-wireless impact detection system for the wing leading edge RCC panels. Many accelerometers were bonded to the inside of the RCC panels to detect impacts. There were also a number of methods for visualizing and inspecting any damage.

NASA did make changes to the foam on the external fuel tank as well, even replacing some foam with heaters.

NASA also developed many tools, materials and components to repair thermal tiles and RCC panels on-orbit, testing them extensively at the arc jet facility and testing the repair techniques on-orbit.

In addition, they made some changes to how the shuttle orbited, access to the ISS for rescues, and had a pre-planned rescue mission already drawn up and ready.

The root problem was the configuration of the shuttle next to the external tank. Short of a complete redesign or possibly scrapping the shuttle program (and ISS build), there was no true solution. Removing foam would lead to a build up of ice, which does dislodge and would also impact the shuttle with far greater damage.

https://www.nbcnews.com/id/wbna7068622

Good info. Thanks.

Correct me if I'm recalling this incorrectly. In the early days of the shuttle the ET was painted white. This was white paint on top of the sprayed foam. While the paint did add strength to the outer layers of foam and ddi serve to prevent foam shedding (or significantly lessened it) the paint was eliminated because of the weight that it added.

Am I recalling that correctly?

Think so

It was only a very few flights that they painted it. Even with the paint. It was still dangerous.

Much of the post Columbia mitigation was like Challenger.....they slapped bandaids on things and fixed procedural issues that should have never been allowed to become normalized, then pretended everything was ok.

STS-1&2 had painted tanks. I don't know if that added any structural integrity to the foam.

IIRC when they stopped painting it they claimed it saved 500-600 lbs.

More than days away, but hopefully not many weeks away

— Elon Musk (@elonmusk) April 1, 2023

PJYoung said:

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More than days away, but hopefully not many weeks away

— Elon Musk (@elonmusk) April 1, 2023

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It's been a long wait since the last time starship flew.

Interesting video with a fascinating story that I'd never heard!

STS27, 2nd post Challenger launch

The Scaled Composites Model 351 Stratolaunch has just launched from Mojave Air and Space Port in Southern California and is currently Flying off the Coast near San Jose; this “Monster” of an Aircraft has 6 Boeing 747 Turbine-Jet Engines and is over 385ft in Length. pic.twitter.com/hWMag6qO8A

— OSINTdefender (@sentdefender) April 1, 2023

Post Challenger, not post Columbia.

Not a Bot said:

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The Scaled Composites Model 351 Stratolaunch has just launched from Mojave Air and Space Port in Southern California and is currently Flying off the Coast near San Jose; this “Monster” of an Aircraft has 6 Boeing 747 Turbine-Jet Engines and is over 385ft in Length. pic.twitter.com/hWMag6qO8A

— OSINTdefender (@sentdefender) April 1, 2023

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What is the purpose for this plane?

It's original design was for Air-Launch to Orbit similar to Virgin, but it was sold and now markets itself as a testbed for rapid and reusable hypersonic systems. The Talon-A is a reusable maneuverable hypersonic aircraft. The "roc" can carry and launch three of them simultaneously.



A larger spaceplane concept called Talon-Z is in development. The Talon-Z is designed to be a reusable spaceplane capable of launching people and cargo to orbit.