aggiehawg said:

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Kool said:

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aggiehawg said:

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Aggiebrewer said:

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10 pages 6 bans & staff

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Over what? Medical facts? When I first read that memo a few weeks ago, I confess I missed the huge significance of his lungs being that full of fluid. It is of critical importance to understand why he kept saying I can't breathe. His lungs were filling with fluid because of a fentanyl overdose.

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The only problem is that asphyxiation can also cause pulmonary edema. In my mind there is no way a "beyond a reasonable doubt" verdict is determinable. It's going to come down to the jury and medical experts, unfortunately.

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Let me explain this to you one more time. There was already fluid in his lungs before any of the officers even got there. He had foam around his mouth when the officers first approached him. They asked him about it. He replied he'd been "hooping" whatever that is. The reason he couldn't breathe when he was standing upright was because his lungs were filling with fluid.

The EMS were called, twice. They were long in arriving. How is that the officers' fault? It isn't.

But since you are a doctor what is the antidote for lack of a better term to counteract fentanyl? Is there one?

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Narcan MIGHT have saved a lot of lives and saved countless businesses from burning and communities from being destroyed. MIGHT

Kool said:

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aggiehawg said:

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Kool said:

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aggiehawg said:

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Aggiebrewer said:

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10 pages 6 bans & staff

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Over what? Medical facts? When I first read that memo a few weeks ago, I confess I missed the huge significance of his lungs being that full of fluid. It is of critical importance to understand why he kept saying I can't breathe. His lungs were filling with fluid because of a fentanyl overdose.

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The only problem is that asphyxiation can also cause pulmonary edema. In my mind there is no way a "beyond a reasonable doubt" verdict is determinable. It's going to come down to the jury and medical experts, unfortunately.

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Let me explain this to you one more time. There was already fluid in his lungs before any of the officers even got there. He had foam around his mouth when the officers first approached him. They asked him about it. He replied he'd been "hooping" whatever that is. The reason he couldn't breathe when he was standing upright was because his lungs were filling with fluid.

The EMS were called, twice. They were long in arriving. How is that the officers' fault? It isn't.

But since you are a doctor what is the antidote for lack of a better term to counteract fentanyl? Is there one?

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Narcan MIGHT have saved a lot of lives and saved countless businesses from burning and communities from being destroyed. MIGHT

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Possibly. And imho, Baden should have waited until the tox reports before giving his findings. He was irresponsible and possibly even negligent.

Kool said:

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dermdoc said:

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Kool said:

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aggiehawg said:

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Aggiebrewer said:

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10 pages 6 bans & staff

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Over what? Medical facts? When I first read that memo a few weeks ago, I confess I missed the huge significance of his lungs being that full of fluid. It is of critical importance to understand why he kept saying I can't breathe. His lungs were filling with fluid because of a fentanyl overdose.

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The only problem is that asphyxiation can also cause pulmonary edema. In my mind there is no way a "beyond a reasonable doubt" verdict is determinable. It's going to come down to the jury and medical experts, unfortunately.

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Doc, how does a knee to the back of the neck lead to asphyxiation without blunt trauma to the trachea as mentioned in the autopsy report?

And not trying to be a turd, it just does not make sense medically to me.

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No way it would ever kill a healthy person if applied to the back of the neck, or even to the lateral neck, without a hyoid or laryngeal fracture ( which we know he did NOT have). But Floyd was a "toxic soup" who had cardiovascular disease, along with two respiratory depressants and at least one respiratory stimulant in his system. One could theorize that you could asymmetrically apply enough pressure to compress his hypopharyngeal soft tissues were he ALREADY predisposed to this collapse due to poor anatomy and drugs in his system. I say this from doing enough Drug Induced Sleep Endoscopies to form an opinion (which is all that it is). I did one yesterday where the guy desaturated down to 80% from Propofol. A little jaw thrust and he comes right back up into the 90s. A jury is NEVER going to understand all this (OJ Simpson much). All my opinions. And I'd never accuse you of being a turd. Others, maybe

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And don't forget a few outlets said he had COVID so we all know the true cause of death

1,000%. I'd honestly go so far as to say he caused people to die and cities to burn as a result of his paid-for autopsy.

Kool said:

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1,000%. I'd honestly go so far as to say he caused people to die and cities to burn as a result of his paid-for autopsy.

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Wish there was some way to complain to the medical board about his obvious malpractice in this case. His license should be suspended, in my view.

aggiehawg said:

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Kool said:

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1,000%. I'd honestly go so far as to say he caused people to die and cities to burn as a result of his paid-for autopsy.

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Wish there was some way to complain to the medical board about his obvious malpractice in this case. His license should be suspended, in my view.

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Agree. But it will never happen. Hired gun doctors never get reprimanded in my anecdotal experiences.

aggiehawg said:

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Kool said:

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1,000%. I'd honestly go so far as to say he caused people to die and cities to burn as a result of his paid-for autopsy.

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Wish there was some way to complain to the medical board about his obvious malpractice in this case. His license should be suspended, in my view.

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Are the findings by a second party autopsy admissible?

May have already been said...but what we have seen so far is CHILDS play compared to what we will see if/when no murder charges stick to Chauvin.

There will be hired gun attorneys and hired gun medical people and hired gun expert witnesses on both sides of the argument that are not about the truth but are hired for a pay day.

Troutslime said:

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aggiehawg said:

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Kool said:

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1,000%. I'd honestly go so far as to say he caused people to die and cities to burn as a result of his paid-for autopsy.

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Wish there was some way to complain to the medical board about his obvious malpractice in this case. His license should be suspended, in my view.

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Are the findings by a second party autopsy admissible?

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Yes. Medical experts can be called by both the prosecution and defense. Of course, those experts need to be read into the facts of the case for their testimony to be allowed. So Baden's so-called autopsy findings would be admissible but would be torn to part on cross by the defense.

Also note Baden or the other doctor that assisted him would have to be on the stand to testify to establish the foundation for their report itself to be admissible. So if the prosecution wants to use it at all, someone's a-hole will be ripped to shreds upon cross.

The judges in these officers' cases are going to have to make a very tough decision. By all rights and the law, these cases should be dismissed and dismissed now. But could a judge withstand the massive blowback if they did? Integrity and gut check time.

30wedge said:

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There will be hired gun attorneys and hired gun medical people and hired gun expert witnesses on both sides of the argument that are not about the truth but are hired for a pay day.

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True, but Baden made a major mis step when he did not even wait on the tox report. Even if had gotten the fentanyl levels, he could have still somehow made up something where the cops contributed to Floyd's death.

By not waiting, Baden revealed his motive and he will get eviscerated on the witness stand.

aggiehawg said:

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Troutslime said:

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aggiehawg said:

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Kool said:

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1,000%. I'd honestly go so far as to say he caused people to die and cities to burn as a result of his paid-for autopsy.

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Wish there was some way to complain to the medical board about his obvious malpractice in this case. His license should be suspended, in my view.

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Are the findings by a second party autopsy admissible?

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Yes. Medical experts can be called by both the prosecution and defense. Of course, those experts need to be read into the facts of the case for their testimony to be allowed. So Baden's so-called autopsy findings would be admissible but would be torn to part on cross by the defense.

Also note Baden or the other doctor that assisted him would have to be on the stand to testify to establish the foundation for their report itself to be admissible. So if the prosecution wants to use it at all, someone's a-hole will be ripped to shreds upon cross.

The judges in these officers' cases are going to have to make a very tough decision. By all rights and the law, these cases should be dismissed and dismissed now. But could a judge withstand the massive blowback if they did? Integrity and gut check time.

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I wish I could say that it would be a tough decision for these judges but I am jaundiced and think there is no way they dismiss the case. Integrity is a rare commodity these days.

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I wish I could say that it would be a tough decision for these judges but I am jaundiced and think there is no way they dismiss the case. Integrity is a rare commodity these days.

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There's always the state version of a writ of mandamus as is currently being played out in the Flynn case.

aggiehawg said:

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I wish I could say that it would be a tough decision for these judges but I am jaundiced and think there is no way they dismiss the case. Integrity is a rare commodity these days.

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There's always the state version of a writ of mandamus as is currently being played out in the Flynn case.

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Sure. I just do not see that happening here. The template has been set imho by the folks who would make that decision.

The real question is can the police officer get a fair trial anywhere? And how far is his attorney willing to go as far as a plea deal?

MASAXET said:

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aginlakeway said:

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MASAXET said:

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aggiehawg said:

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cbr said:

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Sounds like reasonable doubt as to cause of death right there.

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Reasonable doubt? I'm talking there was no probable cause to even arrest those officers in the first place. There's been a lot of lying going on by prosecutors and AG Ellison.

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I don't think you can definitely say that, and the report doesn't necessarily say it either. Even a tox level that could be fatal does not mean that is necessarily what killed him.

Think of it like this: if a junky injects a fatal amount of poison into his veins he will surely die. But if someone walks over to him and shoots him in the head before the junky ODs, that can still be a murder charge.

I'm not saying that analogy is what happened here. My only point is this report, on its own, does not conclusively say that Floyd's cause of death was lethal amounts of fentanyl. It certainly is evidence that can raise reasonable doubt, however.

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It destroys the prosecution.

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Not necessarily but it sure as hell isn't helpful to the prosecution. See hypothetical I posited - if there was a tox report that showed lethal amounts of the hypothetical junky's poison in his body, that's one thing. But if you also have a bullet hole in the junky's head and video of someone shooting him, that's a case that can still be made if the cause of death was the shot to the head.

Again, that's a hyperbolic example and not saying that's the same as this situation. But the memo on its own does not necessarily support all of the statements from the spectator article (and from some posters here).

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Just curious are you either a doctor and/or criminal lawyer?

dermdoc said:

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aggiehawg said:

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I wish I could say that it would be a tough decision for these judges but I am jaundiced and think there is no way they dismiss the case. Integrity is a rare commodity these days.

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There's always the state version of a writ of mandamus as is currently being played out in the Flynn case.

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Sure. I just do not see that happening here. The template has been set imho by the folks who would make that decision.

The real question is can the police officer get a fair trial anywhere? And how far is his attorney willing to go as far as a plea deal?

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No reason for a plea deal. And a judge likely wouldn't accept one anyway. For the same reason they would be afraid to dismiss the case. Public backlash.

What is galling to me at this point is if the races were reversed none of this would be happening, no arrests, no criminal charges. That's not the way our laws are supposed to work, these officers are being prosecuted solely on the basis of their color, for all intents and purposes. Followed procedure, called EMS, acceded to his request to lie down.

Had EMS arrived 5 minutes earlier, he would have been turned over to them-alive and rushed to the hospital. Now likely he would have coded in the ambulance but the causative chain would have been broken between the cops and his overdose death as he was no longer in their exclusive custody.

aggiehawg said:

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dermdoc said:

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aggiehawg said:

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Quote:

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I wish I could say that it would be a tough decision for these judges but I am jaundiced and think there is no way they dismiss the case. Integrity is a rare commodity these days.

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There's always the state version of a writ of mandamus as is currently being played out in the Flynn case.

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Sure. I just do not see that happening here. The template has been set imho by the folks who would make that decision.

The real question is can the police officer get a fair trial anywhere? And how far is his attorney willing to go as far as a plea deal?

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No reason for a plea deal. And a judge likely wouldn't accept one anyway. For the same reason they would be afraid to dismiss the case. Public backlash.

What is galling to me at this point is if the races were reversed none of this would be happening, no arrests, no criminal charges. That's not the way our laws are supposed to work, these officers are being prosecuted solely on the basis of their color, for all intents and purposes. Followed procedure, called EMS, acceded to his request to lie down.

Had EMS arrived 5 minutes earlier, he would have been turned over to them-alive and rushed to the hospital. Now likely he would have coded in the ambulance but the causative chain would have been broken between the cops and his overdose death as he was no longer in their exclusive custody.

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Completely agree. And that is why I could never be a lawyer, politician, judge, etc. it is not about right or wrong. It is about politics, liability, and money.

Oh, and docs like Baden really piss me off.

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Completely agree. And that is why I could never be a lawyer, politician, judge, etc. it is not about right or wrong. It is about politics, liability, and money.

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I originally became a lawyer because of Atticus Finch. That's the profession I believed I was joining. Yes, the practice of law is not always pleasant (PITA actually) but being a part of it was still inspiration as "doing the right thing."

After 15 years, it became clear to me that the "professionals" had left the profession. And I had become a cynic, way more cynical than I ever thought I would. Felt like Diogenes.

But I have never lost my love of the law. There's a symmetry to it, the threads that weave the very fabric of America and what we, uniquely, are as a country. (Or were <sigh>)

aggiehawg said:

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Completely agree. And that is why I could never be a lawyer, politician, judge, etc. it is not about right or wrong. It is about politics, liability, and money.

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I originally became a lawyer because of Atticus Finch. That's the profession I believed I was joining. Yes, the practice of law is not always pleasant (PITA actually) but being a part of it was still inspiration as "doing the right thing."

After 15 years, it became clear to me that the "professionals" had left the profession. And I had become a cynic, way more cynical than I ever thought I would. Felt like Diogenes.

But I have never lost my love of the law. There's a symmetry to it, the threads that weave the very fabric of America and what we, uniquely, are as a country. (Or were <sigh>)

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Similar to me and medicine.

My innocence was shattered by the only time I was sued in 1994(I won). When I saw what people would do for money, it really opened my eyes. And not in a good way.

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Similar to me and medicine.

My innocence was shattered by the only time I was sued in 1994(I won). When I saw what people would do for money, it really opened my eyes. And not in a good way.

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Marcus Welby, M.D.? Aired from 1969 thru 1971 so thought the time frame might fit.

Yep. My mom worked for me for 22 years after my dad died. My office is like the Andy Griffith show,

dermdoc said:

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aggiehawg said:

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Kool said:

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1,000%. I'd honestly go so far as to say he caused people to die and cities to burn as a result of his paid-for autopsy.

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Wish there was some way to complain to the medical board about his obvious malpractice in this case. His license should be suspended, in my view.

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Agree. But it will never happen. Hired gun doctors never get reprimanded in my anecdotal experiences.

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Sad but true. Years ago, there was a neurosurgeon who was acting as a plaintiff's expert and apparently many of his depositions and testimonies were deemed contrary to standard teaching. After a number of neurosurgeons who had to defend themselves from him complained, the Neurosurgery Board investigated and decided to revoke his Board certification. He sued the Board for Restraint of Trade and they acquiesced (more like caved). Other Boards took notice.

dermdoc said:

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Yep. My mom worked for me for 22 years after my dad died. My office is like the Andy Griffith show,

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Thought it might fit. Actually brought some tears to my eyes because I was torn between medicine or the law.

Probably would have made a better and longer lasting doctor than I did with the legal profession.

Then again I also wanted to be an astronaut, an oceanographer, a meteorologist, anthropologist. My interests are varied and I could have gone in so many directions.

The vagaries of getting older. So many questions of what if I had done this differently, or that differently?

One thing is for sure.

I actually might have been an astronaut until Challenger happened

Kool said:

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aggiehawg said:

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Kool said:

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aggiehawg said:

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Aggiebrewer said:

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10 pages 6 bans & staff

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Over what? Medical facts? When I first read that memo a few weeks ago, I confess I missed the huge significance of his lungs being that full of fluid. It is of critical importance to understand why he kept saying I can't breathe. His lungs were filling with fluid because of a fentanyl overdose.

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The only problem is that asphyxiation can also cause pulmonary edema. In my mind there is no way a "beyond a reasonable doubt" verdict is determinable. It's going to come down to the jury and medical experts, unfortunately.

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Let me explain this to you one more time. There was already fluid in his lungs before any of the officers even got there. He had foam around his mouth when the officers first approached him. They asked him about it. He replied he'd been "hooping" whatever that is. The reason he couldn't breathe when he was standing upright was because his lungs were filling with fluid.

The EMS were called, twice. They were long in arriving. How is that the officers' fault? It isn't.

But since you are a doctor what is the antidote for lack of a better term to counteract fentanyl? Is there one?

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Narcan MIGHT have saved a lot of lives and saved countless businesses from burning and communities from being destroyed. MIGHT

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Narcan would certainly not have helped (given that his problem was not bradypnea, but rather pulmonary edema presumably, which narcan does not treat). Narcan, actually might have exacerbated his issue, as narcan use in individuals intoxicated with opiates/opioids is associated with pulmonary edema (now that association is a bit of a chicken and egg discussion that we really don't have a clear answer to).

Reading a bit of the autopsy report, watching the footage, it seems pretty clear what happened (although difficult to definitively prove), having seen 100s of patients present similarly to ERs. It would appear he had acute onset pulmonary edema related to likely diastolic heart failure secondary to hypertensive heart disease and acutely exacerbated by drug use and acute physiologic stress. I frequently see it in people with a bad heart that decide to use cocaine or meth. In emergency medicine circles, we typically call these patients "Sympathetic Crashing Acute Pulmonary Edema" or SCAPE. They usually come in screaming they can't breath and are extremely agitated, blood pressures typically 220s-260s systolic. He was complaining of being unable to breath prior to the knee to the neck. It is difficult to prove whether the knee was definitively a contributing factor, as the knee on the back of the neck is unlikely to cause tracheal compression significant enough to lead to asphyxia, but, again, is hard to say definitively.

I've also seen many physicians bring up positional asphyxia as a contributor which is a bit of a controversial diagnosis among pathologists given that its existence has not been proven, and there are plenty of real life counterexamples to it not being a legitimate issue. Also, there was even a study in my medical society's journal that demonstrates a lack of evidence for this diagnosis with volunteers placed in "hogtie" positioning (linked below)

Basically, if you ask me what my opinion is he probably had acute onset pulmonary edema exacerbated by drug use, underlying heart disease, and physiologic stress from being arrested and resisting arrest. The officer that was on his neck probably had minimal to do with the Floyd's death, although cannot definitively say that there was no contribution.

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0196064497700726

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Basically, if you ask me what my opinion is he probably had acute onset pulmonary edema exacerbated by drug use, underlying heart disease, and physiologic stress from being arrested and resisting arrest. The officer that was on his neck probably had minimal to do with the Floyd's death, although cannot definitively say that there was no contribution.

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Has never been a case prosecution could prove beyond a reasonable doubt, much less an honest judge.

Kool said:

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Narcan MIGHT have saved a lot of lives and saved countless businesses from burning and communities from being destroyed. MIGHT

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Maybe. But he could have just as easily became combative from the fentanyl withdrawal and forced a physical confrontation anyways, who knows. What I do know is that everything observed about GF could be explained by pulmonary edema. He didn't have "excited delirium", he was obtunded because his O2 sat was so low. The froth around his mouth is a classic sign of pulmonary edema like someone posted earlier. He was absolutely correct when he complained of trouble breathing - he was dying from the pulmonary edema caused by a fentanyl overdose. The cops did not kill this man.

dermdoc said:

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aggiehawg said:

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dermdoc said:

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aggiehawg said:

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I wish I could say that it would be a tough decision for these judges but I am jaundiced and think there is no way they dismiss the case. Integrity is a rare commodity these days.

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There's always the state version of a writ of mandamus as is currently being played out in the Flynn case.

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Sure. I just do not see that happening here. The template has been set imho by the folks who would make that decision.

The real question is can the police officer get a fair trial anywhere? And how far is his attorney willing to go as far as a plea deal?

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No reason for a plea deal. And a judge likely wouldn't accept one anyway. For the same reason they would be afraid to dismiss the case. Public backlash.

What is galling to me at this point is if the races were reversed none of this would be happening, no arrests, no criminal charges. That's not the way our laws are supposed to work, these officers are being prosecuted solely on the basis of their color, for all intents and purposes. Followed procedure, called EMS, acceded to his request to lie down.

Had EMS arrived 5 minutes earlier, he would have been turned over to them-alive and rushed to the hospital. Now likely he would have coded in the ambulance but the causative chain would have been broken between the cops and his overdose death as he was no longer in their exclusive custody.

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Completely agree. And that is why I could never be a lawyer, politician, judge, etc. it is not about right or wrong. It is about politics, liability, and money.

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Same here. Live in a smallish town and most people know most everyone and most everything about most everyone! Many of our judges were piss poor attorneys but with few exceptions. To your comment it is not about being right or wrong, I agree. During jury selection once, I was looking for a way out and one of the attorneys asked the potential jurors if they ever had supported any organization that favored the abolition of the jury system. I began to salivate as I raised my hand, I saw my way out, he just made it way too easy but didn't know it yet.

I was asked to approach the bench, the court reporter (still used the machine thing) and all four attorneys joined me. The judge repeated the question and I said I never actually had done so, but if he had the name and the address of an entity that supported the abolition of the jury system I would like to send them a check. He launched into an explanation of the jury system and it being a basic tenet of our judicial system. I had enough after a couple of minutes and I told him it was all a charade, all acting. That the attorneys could switch sides mid trial, and switch again, it made them no difference. All the while collecting $400 or $600 an hour, or 1/3rd the award in a wrongful death case, even it settled rather quickly. That they used sandwich questions, machine gun questions and anything they could use.

So he launches into telling me about the concept of a jury of my peers and I said look judge, sorry, but I am not interested. This case involved an accident and in the early discussion, they told us that even though a city cop, a sheriff's deputy, and a highway patrolman were all on the scene the night of the accident, none of them could agree where the exact place was (which driveway or business it was in front of). I asked the judge that if those three supposed professionals who were actually on the scene didn't know, look at that group sitting behind me and did he think they would? I said tell you what, if either of these two sets of attorneys believe they are the better actor, fine, but if either doubts they are, they should use a strike on me. The judge looked at his clerk or whatever her title was and said "pay the man his $6 and let him go."

That's why I capitalized MIGHT and said it twice. A poster had asked if there was something that would counteract Fentanyl. There was a brief period of time where Floyd was acting more "normal" than he later started acting. And he admitted to having taken something early on. I am not by any means criticizing the police - their job is not to be EMS or ED physicians. I really DO think that he would not have died were he not on multiple substances.

Facts Matter

dermdoc said:

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I actually might have been an astronaut until Challenger happened

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A guy I dated in HS in the latter part of the 70s went to Rice. He graduated in three years like I did but he had a double major, bio and chem. He wanted to be a doctor in space. Told me he wanted to to an aerospace doctor. Again in the late 70s. Guy was wicked brilliant. Top score on the SAT at the time. Maxed it.

Cute guy but socially awkward. He was my "date" for my parents' 25th anniversary dinner. He wore a white dinner jacket and dress tie. Huge sign of respect that my Dad really appreciated.

He was a keeper but alas he did get away.

Troutslime said:

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It shouldn't even be man slaughter, that's the point.

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It's bad callousness. Maybe minimum sentence manslaughter?

Jr. cop on the job for one week makes two comments about "are you sure?"

Multiple bystanders like WTF?

Trial will bring out a lot more evidence. I reserve my rights until then.

This will be a problem for years to come. Facts, evidence, and research take time. Weeks and months.

Meanwhile Twitter mobs make decisions within minutes, and news narratives are created within hours.