Coleman Hughes on Thomas Sowell

6,173 Views | 62 Replies | Last: 5 yr ago by B-1 83
BusterAg
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Long piece, but interesting. My hope is that this will convince some people to go buy some Sowell books.

https://www.city-journal.org/thomas-sowell-race-poverty-culture

Both Hughes and Sowell are national treasures:

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In another cultural milieu, Sowell's life could be the raw material for a compelling biopic or documentary. Instead, his story languishes in relative obscurity. This is partly because Sowell, after years of being a Marxist, ended up somewhere between libertarian and conservativean orientation decidedly unwelcome in Hollywood. But he also does not wear his life story on his sleeve, and much in our culture today values "lived experience" over logical argument. In her best-selling book, White Fragility, Robin DiAngelo advises that, when talking to black people about race, white people should avoid being silent or emotionally withdrawnbut also avoid arguing. (She considers the phrases "I disagree" and "You misunderstood me" to be off-limits, for example.) For whites, the only option left, apparently, is to agree enthusiastically with whatever a black person says. By contrast, Sowell insists that his work "stands or falls on its own merits or applicability" and is not "enhanced or reduced by [his] personal life."
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Great summary of Conflict of Visions:
A Conflict of Visions (1987) represents Sowell's best effort to put his ideas in dialogue with their opposite. He begins the book by observing a strange fact: people predictably line up on opposite sides of political issues that seemingly have nothing in common. For instance, knowing someone's position on climate change somehow allows you to predict their views on taxing the rich, gun control, and abortion. It's tempting to dismiss this as mere political tribalism. But Sowell contends that more is at work: that there are two fundamental ways of thinking about the social world, two sets of basic assumptions about human nature, and two conflicting "visions," from which most political disagreements follow. He names these the constrained vision and the unconstrained vision.

The constrained vision underlies Knowledge and Decisions. It maintains that humans are inherently more flawed than perfectible, more ignorant than knowledgeable, and more prone to selfishness than altruism....

As for the unconstrained vision, if humans are flawed, selfish, and ignorant, it is not due to the unchangeable facts of our nature but to the way that our society happens to be arranged. By reforming our economic system, our education system, our laws, and other institutions, it is possible to change the social world in fundamental waysincluding those aspects of it purportedly fixed by human nature. Through enlightened public policy, often implemented by a central authority, evils once assumed as inevitable are revealed to be social constructs or products of outdated ideas.
This argument hits home on this board pretty well:
Quote:

That racial disparity is pervasive is seen either as proof that racial groups are not born with equal potential or that we don't live in a fair society. The first position predominated among "progressive" intellectuals in the early twentieth century, who blamed racial disparity on genetic differences and prescribed eugenics as a cure. The second has dominated the academy since the 1960s and is now orthodoxy on the political Left. Democrats as moderate as Joe Biden have charged that America is "institutionally racist," and when asked to prove it, the reply almost always points to statistical disparities between whites and blacks in wealth, incarceration, health, and in other areas. The suppressed premisethat statistical equality would be the norm, absent racismis rarely stated openly or challenged.

In a dozen books, Sowell has challenged that premise more persuasively than anyone. One way he pressure-tests this assumption is by finding conditions in which we know, with near-certainty, that racial bias does not exist, and then seeing if outcomes are, in fact, equal. For example, between white Americans of French descent and white Americans of Russian descent, it's safe to assume that neither group suffers more bias than the otherif for no other reason than that they're hard to tell apart. Nevertheless, the French descendants earn only 70 cents for every dollar earned by the Russian-Americans. Why such a large gap? Sowell's basic insight is that the question is posed backward. Why would we think that two ethnic groups with different histories, demographics, social patterns, and cultural values would nevertheless achieve identical results?

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The prevailing notion today is that your skin color, your chromosomes, your sexual orientation, and other markers of identity determine how you think. And it is generally those who see themselves as the most freethinking"woke," while the rest of us are asleepwho apply the strictest and most backward formulas.

To such people, the existence of a man like Thomas Sowell will always be a puzzle. He will always remain, in their minds, a phenomenon to be explained. But the question is not why a man who lived Sowell's life came to hold the views that he did. The question is why one would expect a mind so brilliant to submit itself to received opinion of any kind.

It takes a special kind of brainwashed useful idiot to politically defend government fraud, waste, and abuse.
Ag4coal
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I've loved his interviews. Time to pick up some of his books
chimpanzee
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Conflict of Visions is very academic, even handed about why people think certain ways.

The rest of Sowell's work supports with ample evidence which vision is proved out by results. He gets into this a lot in The Quest for Cosmic Justice. I won't spoil it for those of you who haven't guessed which side doesn't actually care about results.
PabloSerna
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He does have his detractors though. I think he is well meaning, but misguided.
Change Detection
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Of course you think he is misguided. He is pointing his finger at you!
Sarge 91
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PabloSerna said:

He does have his detractors though. I think he is well meaning, but misguided.
You cite as one of his "detractors" an unemployed artist with a blog? Whose article is void of analytical critique and overflowing with ad hominem? That guy isn't fit to clip Sowell's toenails. Do better.
DTP02
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PabloSerna said:

He does have his detractors though. I think he is well meaning, but misguided.


The fact that you would link a site like that to try to discredit an incredibly thoughtful, rational, and intelligent writer and thinker like Sowell says a lot about your inability to be objective and rationally consider opposing views.

That's like using a 5 year old to discredit Einstein: "his hair was like so crazy."
PabloSerna
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I like how the immediate reaction is to character slam anyone - leave the arguments and logic out of it by all means.

Deep water scares people.

DTP02
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PabloSerna said:

I like how the immediate reaction is to character slam anyone - leave the arguments and logic out of it by all means.

Deep water scares people.




Character slam? You linked to some ridiculously biased intellectual lightweight named OTOOLEFAN on a Wordpress site to try to discredit Sowell.

I'm slamming your lack of discernment, which is readily apparent from that action. The internet is a dangerous place for people who can't tell what's worth consideration and attention and what isn't.

The only "arguments and logic" worth employing in response to such an attempt is the opening argument from Vincent Gambini in "My Cousin Vinny."

Bring something worthwhile to the table if you want engagement. Sowell could argue circles around that guy after being 10 years in the grave. Pretty sure I could handle him at the tail end of a three-day bender (not that I've ever had one!).
GE
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PabloSerna said:

I like how the immediate reaction is to character slam anyone - leave the arguments and logic out of it by all means.

Deep water scares people.


The arguments were as shallow as could be and the logic was entirely unsound.
GE
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PabloSerna said:

I like how the immediate reaction is to character slam anyone - leave the arguments and logic out of it by all means.

Deep water scares people.
Which of Sowell's books have you read?
PabloSerna
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Fair enough - Here is a letter by Mr. Sowell himself arguing against community service for college students. As someone who has benefited from such efforts - I am glad that we are requiring students to experience community service in their region. Nothing beats real world experience.

I assume that Sowell would rather that decision remain personal.

Ag4coal
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There is nothing to debate in that article. He cites no sources, attributes quotes to Sowell that can't be read in context, and make his/her significant bias known immediately. Sprinkle in the personal insults, and it's just not an article/blog that can be used well at all. I'm willing to see rebuttals to Sowell, but not something like that
PabloSerna
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It is some cold water to be sure. But if you can wade through it - you will see some points brought up against Mr. Sowell that are worth debating (wish I had more time).



DTP02
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PabloSerna said:

Fair enough - Here is a letter by Mr. Sowell himself arguing against community service for college students. As someone who has benefited from such efforts - I am glad that we are requiring students to experience community service in their region. Nothing beats real world experience.

I assume that Sowell would rather that decision remain personal.




You can read his letter yourself. The crux of it is this:

Quote:

The arrogance of commandeering young people's time, instead of leaving them and their parents free to decide for themselves how to use that time, is exceeded only by the arrogance of imposing your own notions as to what is or is not a service to the community.


On its face, the idea of community service or a service requirement for citizenship sounds promising.

But then you look at what it necessarily entails: govt oversight and decisions about what you do and how you do it. Any time the govt is given more power over an individual's life it is a situation rife for abuse.

Could it be administered fairly and wisely and ultimately be a positive? Quite possibly, for a time. But just as "entropy always increases", in govt programs the inefficiency, partisanship, and imposition on individual liberty always tend to increase.

In the choice between individual liberty and even a well-intentioned govt program, the default should always be individual liberty.
Ag4coal
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I read the link you posted (see, it's not hard to post someone's work unlike the blogger). I disagree with certain points of his, I agree with the overarching view of view point enforcement being a bad thing. Nothing that i saw there that would lead me to think he's a bad person or not right about many other things.

I'm sure you would agree that we can't throw out all of a person's work when we don't agree 100%. Most of his work is well researched and well explained. I guess the fact that he left Marxism colors his view on the homeless and unemployed. I'm sure once upon a time he was much more sympathetic.
93MarineHorn
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Quote:

I like how the immediate reaction is to character slam anyone - leave the arguments and logic out of it by all means.

Deep water scares people.
You never made an argument. You posted a link. Do YOU have an opinion about Sowell's writings?
93MarineHorn
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Quote:

Deep water scares people.
Good Lord! You are insufferable. Do you think you're dealing with children here?
BusterAg
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PabloSerna said:

He does have his detractors though. I think he is well meaning, but misguided.
I would like to hear your thoughts on how Sowell is misguided.

And, linking to a 3 paragraph letter that is out of context when the man has written over 35 books is kind of a cop out.

I wouldn't try to discredit Marx by citing a letter to his aunt. Plenty of things about his worldview that are more relevant to attack.
It takes a special kind of brainwashed useful idiot to politically defend government fraud, waste, and abuse.
Texaggie7nine
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PabloSerna said:

He does have his detractors though. I think he is well meaning, but misguided.
What is even this crap? I can't believe I wasted my time reading that school yard nonsense. It would be like some unemployed musician wrote a blog post about how Albert Einstein cannot be taken seriously because he made some mean statement about someone the musician really liked and has horrible taste in music.

Like there is no actual criticism of Sowell's literature. Just off opinion pieces he has put out in columns.
7nine
JB99
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BusterAg said:

PabloSerna said:

He does have his detractors though. I think he is well meaning, but misguided.
I would like to hear your thoughts on how Sowell is misguided.

And, linking to a 3 paragraph letter that is out of context when the man has written over 35 books is kind of a cop out.

I wouldn't try to discredit Marx by citing a letter to his aunt. Plenty of things about his worldview that are more relevant to attack.


Spoiler alert. He's going to google to find rebuttals on Sowell and post them. I'd be shocked if he has an original thought on this subject.
NCNJ1217
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PabloSerna said:

I like how the immediate reaction is to character slam anyone - leave the arguments and logic out of it by all means.

Deep water scares people.




If you find this guy's rebuttal, or whatever, of Sowell so compelling, why don't you post his arguments here for discussion?

You can't claim the high ground as you have in the quoted portion above, if you won't even post what you are referencing.
aggie93
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PabloSerna said:

He does have his detractors though. I think he is well meaning, but misguided.
The "detractor" looks like a real academic and gave an unbiased and objective argument against him with gems like this:

Quote:

But before we delve into all things Nazi, let me acquaint you with some of Thomas Sowell's other bat guano droppings on a host of topics, both historical and contemporary. How this crackpot is taken seriously is more of a mystery to me than Stonehenge or 'Cop Rock'.
"The most terrifying words in the English language are: I'm from the government and I'm here to help."

Ronald Reagan
Texaggie7nine
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PabloSerna said:

It is some cold water to be sure. But if you can wade through it - you will see some points brought up against Mr. Sowell that are worth debating (wish I had more time).




He did not bring up one argument from a Sowell book. He attacked some opinion pieces he wrote online.
7nine
BusterAg
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JB99 said:

BusterAg said:

PabloSerna said:

He does have his detractors though. I think he is well meaning, but misguided.
I would like to hear your thoughts on how Sowell is misguided.

And, linking to a 3 paragraph letter that is out of context when the man has written over 35 books is kind of a cop out.

I wouldn't try to discredit Marx by citing a letter to his aunt. Plenty of things about his worldview that are more relevant to attack.


Spoiler alert. He's going to google to find rebuttals on Sowell and post them. I'd be shocked if he has an original thought on this subject.
That's fine. It will still be fun.

I have been borrowing a lot of his commentary on race, culture and inequality on the board lately, with pleasure.

It takes a special kind of brainwashed useful idiot to politically defend government fraud, waste, and abuse.
OPAG
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Quote:

I'm sure you would agree that we can't throw out all of a person's work when we don't agree 100%

Ding, ding, ding, we have a winner! This statement cannot be repeated enough in today's communication environment.

Even in scripture, in Acts there is much communication and disagreement and debate, and many times they got heated! "there was no small dispute among them" is mentioned sevaral times in the book of Acts.

The problem is that the teaching of critical thinking and the art of having a debate about an issue to come to amicable solution, has been totally nuked out of our educational system by the left.

They are into programing now. And anyone who does not fall lock step 100% in with the leaders opinions is to be shunned, shamed, mocked, censored, banned and maybe even killed.

And this especially true in the sciences now. If you do not buy into and agree with the theory of evolution, you will be seriously attacked personally,

Jesus called it "Straining gnats and swallowing camels". It is a demonic strategy. And it being used quite effectively with the CV 19 sham!

Ellis Wyatt
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PabloSerna said:

He does have his detractors though. I think he is well meaning, but misguided.
Yes, can't have someone think differently than you.

The Politics of Personal Destruction from the Party of Tolerance. Classy, dude.
Ellis Wyatt
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PabloSerna said:

I like how the immediate reaction is to character slam anyone - leave the arguments and logic out of it by all means.
Uh, you did that, sport.
chimpanzee
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Sowell deals in air tight intellectual honesty, many can't recognize or value that form of rhetoric.
John_Cocktolstoy
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Ag4coal said:

I read the link you posted (see, it's not hard to post someone's work unlike the blogger). I disagree with certain points of his, I agree with the overarching view of view point enforcement being a bad thing. Nothing that i saw there that would lead me to think he's a bad person or not right about many other things.

I'm sure you would agree that we can't throw out all of a person's work when we don't agree 100%. Most of his work is well researched and well explained. I guess the fact that he left Marxism colors his view on the homeless and unemployed. I'm sure once upon a time he was much more sympathetic.
You're sure it does? What evidence do you have?

There's the issue. Some people think with their feelings when they don't have facts. Some people let facts lead the way.
Ellis Wyatt
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chimpanzee said:

Sowell deals in air tight intellectual honesty, many can't recognize or value that form of rhetoric.
Many others can't comprehend it.
Ag4coal
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John_Cocktolstoy said:

Ag4coal said:

I read the link you posted (see, it's not hard to post someone's work unlike the blogger). I disagree with certain points of his, I agree with the overarching view of view point enforcement being a bad thing. Nothing that i saw there that would lead me to think he's a bad person or not right about many other things.

I'm sure you would agree that we can't throw out all of a person's work when we don't agree 100%. Most of his work is well researched and well explained. I guess the fact that he left Marxism colors his view on the homeless and unemployed. I'm sure once upon a time he was much more sympathetic.
You're sure it does? What evidence do you have?

There's the issue. Some people think with their feelings when they don't have facts. Some people let facts lead the way.
Am I sure what ("it") does something? What am i supposed to be providing evidence for?
gutmancometh
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Of course you don't have time...
chimpanzee
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Ellis Wyatt said:

chimpanzee said:

Sowell deals in air tight intellectual honesty, many can't recognize or value that form of rhetoric.
Many others can't comprehend it.

Honestly it's almost unsporting watching some people whose exposure to facts is so limited to a particular intellectual bubble trying to argue points that have been rebutted so thoroughly.
John_Cocktolstoy
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Ag4coal said:

John_Cocktolstoy said:

Ag4coal said:

I read the link you posted (see, it's not hard to post someone's work unlike the blogger). I disagree with certain points of his, I agree with the overarching view of view point enforcement being a bad thing. Nothing that i saw there that would lead me to think he's a bad person or not right about many other things.

I'm sure you would agree that we can't throw out all of a person's work when we don't agree 100%. Most of his work is well researched and well explained. I guess the fact that he left Marxism colors his view on the homeless and unemployed. I'm sure once upon a time he was much more sympathetic.
You're sure it does? What evidence do you have?

There's the issue. Some people think with their feelings when they don't have facts. Some people let facts lead the way.
Am I sure what ("it") does something? What am i supposed to be providing evidence for?
You cited" the fact he left Marxism..." That's the "it."
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