MetoliusAg said:

---

If the select committee chaired by Schiff and the rules & procedures the committee is following are a violation of House rules -- as you and the R's say -- then why haven't the R's asked for a ruling on it from the House's rules expert?

---

What "select committee" when did the House vote to create a select committee?

This appears to me to be more about the DOJ investigations occurring now.

Ukraine, Ukraine, Ukraine.

hbtheduce said:

---

Since when has criminal investigations been considered interference into an election?

Fusion GPS and the Obama FBI want to know....

---

Haven't you heard? Being a political opponent of Trump renders you immune from criminal prosecution and the mere suggestion that corruption committed by political opponents of Trump should be looked into is the real offense.

MetoliusAg said:

---

If the select committee chaired by Schiff and the rules & procedures the committee is following are a violation of House rules -- as you and the R's say -- then why haven't the R's asked for a ruling on it from the House's rules expert?

---

Einstein,
Where did I say they broke the rules?
I said the rules where changed by Skeletor.

MetoliusAg said:

---

If the select committee chaired by Schiff and the rules & procedures the committee is following are a violation of House rules -- as you and the R's say -- then why haven't the R's asked for a ruling on it from the House's rules expert?

---

If you and your liberal friends had any morals and integrity you would acknowledge that Biden's actions in Ukraine smell. You would see that corruption was involved in his son sitting on Burisma's Board. If you had any character you would want this corruption investigated, just like you should have wanted the DNC's emails released so that you got to see the corruption leading up to the 2016 primary. It should have pissed you off that Hillary got debate questions before the debate. It should piss you off that Hillary deleted 30,000 emails and demolished Blackberries after a subpoena was issued. You should want your President investigating corruption involving US citizens in other countries. It shouldn't matter if the person involved is running for President. Would it have been ok for Trump to want to investigate this if Biden had not decided to join the race? None of this bothers you or your other lack of morals and integrity brethren. Absolutely pathetic.

Wall of words. But didn't answer the question.

You only opined for 30 minutes on long debunked conspiracy theories.

GreyhoundDad said:

---

MetoliusAg said:

---

If the select committee chaired by Schiff and the rules & procedures the committee is following are a violation of House rules -- as you and the R's say -- then why haven't the R's asked for a ruling on it from the House's rules expert?

---

If you and your liberal friends had any morals and integrity you would acknowledge that Biden's actions in Ukraine smell. You would see that corruption was involved in his son sitting on Burisma's Board. If you had any character you would want this corruption investigated, just like you should have wanted the DNC's emails released so that you got to see the corruption leading up to the 2016 primary. It should have pissed you off that Hillary got debate questions before the debate. It should piss you off that Hillary deleted 30,000 emails and demolished Blackberries after a subpoena was issued. You should want your President investigating corruption involving US citizens in other countries. It shouldn't matter if the person involved is running for President. Would it have been ok for Trump to want to investigate this if Biden had not decided to join the race? None of this bothers you or your other lack of morals and integrity brethren. Absolutely pathetic.

---

This is exactly right. Now if the Trump call suggested Ukraine should fabricate evidence or take illegal actions in their investigation, there would be major concerns even from conservatives.

Can't trust Sundland. He has ties to a Soros backed globalist thinktank.

Gary Johnson said:

---

Wall of words. But didn't answer the question.

You only opined for 30 minutes on long debunked conspiracy theories.

---

I'll step in a then duck out of this flame war but I'm not really understanding what has been debunked in what the guy said?

The only thing that has been debunked in the last 11 years about either side's allegations has been Russian Collusion since that was REALLY investigated.

Any use of the word debunked in other contexts is just political narrative from one side or another.

Gary Johnson said:

---

Can't trust Sundland. He has ties to a Soros backed globalist thinktank.

---

Didn't see those connections. Only that Bill Taylor had those connections.

Gary Johnson said:

---

Wall of words. But didn't answer the question.

You only opined for 30 minutes on long debunked conspiracy theories.

---

Not conspiracy theory at all.

Gary Johnson said:

---

Wall of words. But didn't answer the question.

You only opined for 30 minutes on long debunked conspiracy theories.

---

So Hillary didn't erase emails and demolish Blackberries? That's news to me. Do you honestly not think it smells for Hunter Biden to sit on Burisma's Board? Did Hillary not get debate questions ahead of time? I think you're wrong on all accounts. By the way I thought you are more of Libertarian, free trade kind of dude, not someone who would try to defend obvious corruption.

Barking up the wrong tree with whataboutism. I'm not a Democrat and I never voted for Biden or Hillary.

Trump didn't think it was a big deal to demand a public announcement of an investigation into Biden Jr. That's the angle y'all should be taking because he's all but admitted it.

EKUAg said:

---

Gary Johnson said:

---

Can't trust Sundland. He has ties to a Soros backed globalist thinktank.

---

Didn't see those connections. Only that Bill Taylor had those connections.

---

It was a joke about the loose ties with the Atlantic Council which Taylor has published articles for. Every US-EU ambassador "has ties" to this not really scary, not really (((globalist))) organization.

biglebowski said:

---

Gary Johnson said:

---

Wall of words. But didn't answer the question.

You only opined for 30 minutes on long debunked conspiracy theories.

---

Not conspiracy theory at all.

---

"The Ukraine Servers" and "Biden stopped the investigation" are debunked crackpot conspiracy nuttery.

Gary Johnson said:

---

biglebowski said:

---

Gary Johnson said:

---

Wall of words. But didn't answer the question.

You only opined for 30 minutes on long debunked conspiracy theories.

---

Not conspiracy theory at all.

---

"The Ukraine Servers" and "Biden stopped the investigation" are debunked crackpot conspiracy nuttery.

---

There is video evidence of Biden bragging about putting away the prosecutor looking into corruption and Biden's son.

biglebowski said:

---

Gary Johnson said:

---

biglebowski said:

---

Gary Johnson said:

---

Wall of words. But didn't answer the question.

You only opined for 30 minutes on long debunked conspiracy theories.

---

Not conspiracy theory at all.

---

"The Ukraine Servers" and "Biden stopped the investigation" are debunked crackpot conspiracy nuttery.

---

There is video evidence of Biden bragging about putting away the prosecutor looking into corruption and Biden's son.

---

He's just playing goaltender. He's harmless.

Of course he did no doubt. But here's the rub:

TLDR: The prosecutor(Lutsenko) who Biden pressured to be fired was actually protecting Zlochevskyi(of Burisma)

Long version: This is a little complex but the facts are not in dispute:

The rest of Europe and the US wanted Lutsenko out, he was dirty. There were 4 criminal charges against Zlochevsjy/Burisma 2 were stopped suspiciously by Lutsenko, 2 are ongoing.

Quote:

---

However, despite considerable public attention, the illicit enrichment of Zlochevskiy was never properly investigated and sent to the court in two years the investigation mystically transformed into the case of tax evasion by chief accountant of one the Burisma holding companies. This was done under the Yuriy Lutsenko's leadership at the PGO.

The irony is that, actually, it was the Prosecutor General's Office (PGO) who repeatedly covered Zlochevsky up from the criminal prosecution. Moreover, the only ongoing investigations into activities of Zlochevskyi's companies are conducted by NABU.

---

https://www.kyivpost.com/article/opinion/op-ed/anti-corruption-action-center-lutsenkos-speculation-regarding-burisma.html?cn-reloaded=1

Gary Johnson said:

---

biglebowski said:

---

Gary Johnson said:

---

Wall of words. But didn't answer the question.

You only opined for 30 minutes on long debunked conspiracy theories.

---

Not conspiracy theory at all.

---

"The Ukraine Servers" and "Biden stopped the investigation" are debunked crackpot conspiracy nuttery.

---

Tomorrow is not going to be kind to you.

Keep looking for the Ukraine servers Grandpa Email Forward.

Gary Johnson said:

---

Of course he did no doubt. But here's the rub:

TLDR: The prosecutor(Lutsenko) who Biden pressured to be fired was actually protecting Zlochevskyi(of Burisma)

Long version: This is a little complex but the facts are not in dispute:

The rest of Europe and the US wanted Lutsenko out, he was dirty. There were 4 criminal charges against Zlochevsjy/Burisma 2 were stopped suspiciously by Lutsenko, 2 are ongoing.

Quote:

---

However, despite considerable public attention, the illicit enrichment of Zlochevskiy was never properly investigated and sent to the court in two years the investigation mystically transformed into the case of tax evasion by chief accountant of one the Burisma holding companies. This was done under the Yuriy Lutsenko's leadership at the PGO.

The irony is that, actually, it was the Prosecutor General's Office (PGO) who repeatedly covered Zlochevsky up from the criminal prosecution. Moreover, the only ongoing investigations into activities of Zlochevskyi's companies are conducted by NABU.

---

https://www.kyivpost.com/article/opinion/op-ed/anti-corruption-action-center-lutsenkos-speculation-regarding-burisma.html?cn-reloaded=1

---

Interesting opinion piece written by an anti-corruption watch dog group. The problem is I read it different from you and the writer.

Especially, when I see this prize sentence: "Thus, the company was cleared even without closing criminal investigation." What they were saying is the PGO let the investigation wither effectively closing the case but how does this watch dog group know that? It's no better than some of the pundits on TV conjecture without facts.

Edit: accidentally hit submit /nm

MetoliusAg said:

---

fasthorses05 said:

---

I haven't read every single post on this thread, so I may have missed this part of the topic.

Has anyone said that even if Trump DID have a Quid Pro Quo, I'm certain he didn't mean to do it. Isn't that what every gd leftist said since Hillary destroyed 30,000 e-mails and hammered the hell out of 12 cell phones?

So every Leftist, black hearted, cognitive bypass, Dem who's been here educating us on THEIR version of Constitutional guilt, can get the hell over it, as Trump didn't have intent, never had intent, and certainly didn't look like he had intent.

EOT

---

The evidence uncovered so far is very strong that there was a quid pro quo. But to be candid, it would simply be icing on the cake. Why? Because a Potus asking a foreign leader to interfere in the upcoming US election is sufficient for impeachment. And in addition to the phone call readout and Giuliani's incriminating admissions on tv, Trump himself has already confessed in public to doing that.

Schiff and the House Dems are doing right thing by adhering to their Constitutional duty: calling witnesses and gathering evidence, taking depositions, and investigating the full scope of the scandal that Trump, Giuliana, & Mulvaney were engaged in.

---

Could you be more disingenuous?

The evidence uncovered so far says exactly the opposite of your claim:

- Phone call transcript (no QPQ)

- Text exchange (explicitly states no QPQ)

The real crimes committed in this whole charade will be exposed in the soon-to-be-released FISA abuses investigation report...

We will finally see concrete evidence of a politically orchestrated coup that was put into motion in an attempt to provide insurance that DJT would never be president...

Stressboy said:

---

Interesting opinion piece written by an anti-corruption watch dog group. The problem is I read it different from you and the writer.

Especially, when I see this prize sentence: "Thus, the company was cleared even without closing criminal investigation." What they were saying is the PGO let the investigation wither effectively closing the case but how does this watch dog group know that? It's no better than some of the pundits on TV conjecture without facts.

Edit: accidentally hit submit /nm

---

Many of the facts are publicly available.

https://www.sfo.gov.uk/2014/04/28/money-laundering-investigation-opened/

Chaser: the PGO did not cooperate and the money was unfrozen.

Quote:

---

Instead, the case of the $23m collapsed within a year when a British judge ruled that the SFO had built its case on "conjecture and suspicion", and ordered the money returned to its owner. This is the story of how a very high-profile corruption investigation fell apart

---

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/apr/12/the-money-machine-how-a-high-profile-corruption-investigation-fell-apart

Ok all these Ukrainian names confuse everything.

Shokin was the one Biden got fired and he was prosecutor general from feb 2015 until mar 2016.

All the coverups mentioned in your article happened before and after Shokin.

The money from the UK, his predecessor did that so that the cries about the PGO that person had already been fired. The rest of the article is about Lutshenko, his predecessor. Looks like to me everything in the article validates that Shokin was the one they had to get rid of.

So if anything this adds to the Biden conspiracy theory it does not debunk it.

Couple more very hardcore Republicans added to the "to be deposed" list. If people think the House investigation isn't questioning people who may exculpate Trump, they're wrong.

MetoliusAg said:

---

Couple more very hardcore Republicans added to the "to be deposed" list. If people think the House investigation isn't questioning people who may exculpate Trump, they're wrong.

---

Will Morrison corroborate key elements of Bill Taylor's testimony, or will he corroborate Sondland's?

MetoliusAg said:

---

Couple more very hardcore Republicans added to the "to be deposed" list. If people think the House investigation isn't questioning people who may exculpate Trump, they're wrong.

---

"Hardcore republicans" like John McCain?

Who knows anymore. There ought to be open betting on testimony!!

Honestly, if you have many saying one thing, and just 1 or 2 saying another, it ought to be relatively easy to cross examine, but that's just me.

Sounds like new White House defense this morning is that the president didn't intend for it to be a quid pro quo.

If they were smart they'd fire Mulvaney, put in Conway, and let her go to work. Their messaging has been terrible.

The singular thread is that the PGO department was corrupt the whole time protecting oligarchs. The 2 sabotaged cases and 2 ongoing cars predate Hunter's involvement. Shokin wasn't investigating anybody especially Hunter Biden.

The EU and IMF called for Shokin's head in 2015, well before the JBiden's infamous 2016 trip he later bragged about.

The only crime committed here is that the Dems not only got away with the public funding their first wild goose chase (Mueller), they are going to get away with the public funding a second.

All you dims in this thread that believe this charade is not a 100% partisan witch hunt need to be checked out.

agsfan said:

---

Sounds like new White House defense this morning is that the president didn't intend for it to be a quid pro quo.

If they were smart they'd fire Mulvaney, put in Conway, and let her go to work. Their messaging has been terrible.

---

Their messaging is fine. They are raising millions and there's a zero percent chance he's removed.

Quote:

---

Will Morrison corroborate key elements of Bill Taylor's testimony, or will he corroborate Sondland's?

---

Dunno.

Morrison and Bolton are about as "hardcore Republican" as a person can get. So regardless of their personal opinions of Trump, it is more than likely they will minimize / understate what they heard and saw. But because there are numerous other witnesses and documents and emails / texts involved, they'll have to be somewhat forthcoming.

There are still Trumpers who are denying a quid pro quo occurred, despite all the evidence including Trump's and Giuliani's and Mulvaney's own admissions. Another problem they're overlooking is the "ask" by itself was an impeachable offense.

Additionally, Giuliani has said on tv camera and on twitter that in his actions in this Ukraine scandal that he was acting as Trump's lawyer and representing his client Trump. That blows to hell the contention by some Trump supporters who claim Giuliani was an official Presidential envoy doing US government business.

Rudy has additional other problems, too: he is headed for eventual disbarment and jail time for his involvement in several sketchy dealings with foreign money. This is the most corrupt WH since Nixon.

Gary Johnson said:

---

The singular thread is that the PGO department was corrupt the whole time protecting oligarchs. The 2 sabotaged cases and 2 ongoing cars predate Hunter's involvement. Shokin wasn't investigating anybody especially Hunter Biden.

The EU and IMF called for Shokin's head in 2015, well before the JBiden's infamous 2016 trip he later bragged about.

---

I keep seeing this line of reasoning. I dont understand it. I've never read anyone suggesting that the Bidens were the initiators of corruption in Ukraine. Especially Hunter himself. It's just simply that the situation was part of a pattern. Hunter would be a hedge to scrutiny and potential favor by the Ukrainian powers that be, with his father as VP tasked with Ukraine matters.

So why make the argument that corruption abounds prior to the appointment? Of course it did, Oligarch corruption has existed in all the former Soviet republics, Russia, and every other eastern european country with strong ties to communism since communism fell. That's what filled the void left by the fall of the equally corrupt communistic system. There where no modern day free-market classical liberal revolutionaries that ascended into power in any of these countries. And many bad capitalist actors from the west rushed in to make money and become part of the problem. The Bidens just appear to be the latest in the string. Although I suspect that Bidens 40 years in congress, Senate, and VP which included long time service as ranking member on Foreign Relations committee, dating back to the fall of communism in eastern Europe puts Biden right in the middle of alot of corruption in that part of the world.