Since the FISA applications relied entirely on the Steele Dossier, then you should be aware of the following from Page 188 of the IG Report:

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In addition, the FBI interviews with the Primary Sub-source revealed that Steele did not have good insight into how many degrees of separation existed between the Primary Sub-source's sub-sources and the persons quoted in the reporting, and that it could have been multiple layers of hearsay upon hearsay. For example, the Primary Sub-source stated to WFO Agent 1 that, in contrast to the impression left from the election reports, his/her sub-sources did not have direct access to the persons they were reporting on. Instead, the Primary Sub-source told WFO Agent 1 that their information was "from someone else who may have had access."

The Primary Sub-source also informed WFO Agent 1 that Steele tasked him/her after the 2016 U.S. elections to find corroboration for the election reporting and that the Primary Sub-source could find none. According to WFO Agent 1, during an interview in May 2017, the Primary Sub-source said the corroboration was "zero." The Primary Sub-source had reported the same conclusion to the Crossfire Hurricane team members who interviewed him/her in January 2017.

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They knew in January 2017 it was all bogus.

aggiehawg said:

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Saw that thread yesterday. I was confused how a college football coach was being discussed as a former MI6 agent. Kevin Steele?

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Also noticed that and just shook my head...

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Pretend you are a concerned moderate, tell him how shocked you were and ask him if he was surprised, too.

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That might work. I guess I could just say I was sad to see it and not tap dance on his head. I would like to get a response from him though.

aggiehawg said:

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aggiehawg said:

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They knew in January 2017 it was all bogus.

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Meaning Mueller knew from day one he had a bogus investigation and pursued it anyway.

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To come full circle here. Mueller's proceeding to conduct an investigation under what he knew were bogus circumstances would definitely fall under his standard of defrauding the United States government. Forfeiture of any all sums or benefits received.

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I really want to see the appointment memo and the amendments to it now. How the hell do they justify the appointment when they knew there was nothing?

When exactly, in January, was this determined, versus when a special counsel was authorized?

The timing here could be critical for several persons involved.

In fact, the timing could indicate the creation of the special counsel investigation was expressly for the purpose of concealing that discovery for as long as possible due to the power such a person would have to protect evidence from discovery from others and to ward off the curios with threats of obstruction.

I hate to be a conspiracy theorist, but this is a plausible motive, or partial motive, for the creation of the Mueller SC investigation, even if only a tiny number of persons were in the know regarding the this being an intended benefit of its creation to some, politically.

This whole thing is gonna make one helluva Netflix special one day.

Good to have it all documented here.

aggiehawg said:

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MouthBQ98 said:

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If multiple people in leadership knew they were carrying out a baseless and unfounded investigation that required multiple deceptions of courts and other official falsifications or omissions to sustain, what is that but a criminal conspiracy by definition?

The DOJ bureaucracy can persist in the sanctimonious delusion and rationalization that surely if their motives were pure than their means were justified, but if they knew from almost the beginning that they had absolutely nothing of substance, they in fact DID engage in a seditious conspiracy. They in fact DID materially alter the political outcome of the 2018 midterm elections and the operation of the executive branch via this drawn out baseless special counsel investigation, at least insofar as they should have cleared Trump immediately, even if they intended to pursue other persons for other unrelated crimes.

Biggest political conspiracy in a century. This is way beyond Watergate in its implications.

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Agree. Think how differently Trump's first term would have gone if two months into his appointment Mueller had announced there was nothing there, no collusion? Instead, he went back to Rosenstein not once but twice to change and expand his jurisdiction.

Aaaannnndd Mueller is an even bigger POS.

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This always makes me smile. Never imagined it would be this bad.

FriscoKid said:

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So should I ask the former FBI agent about this on Sunday at church? He guaranteed it to me that the FISA application was not based on the dossier because it just doesn't work that way. He knows because he has sworn to many of them before. I was wrong (in his words).

This is a guy that either worked on the 7th floor or was always there. He knew most of these players on a 1st name basis.

Is it right to rub a retired agents nose in it or should I just let it go?

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I don't see the retired FBI agent that I went to school with that often and have only asked him one question pertaining to this issue. "In his opinion had today's FBI become 'politicized'"? His reply (with no hesitancy) was "Definitely so".

Director Wray has his work cut out for him...seriously doubt whether he's "up to it" or even see's the situation as needing a major house cleaning. If it were up to me (lol), I'd give him an ultimatum and a deadline or ask for his immediate resignation in AG Barr's presence. Wiggle room??? Absolutely NONE.

drcrinum said:

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https://www.cnn.com/2019/12/11/politics/horowitz-testimony-hearing/index.html

Horowitz's opening statement transcript is embedded in the above article. Here's an important takeaway from the bottom of Page 5:

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For example, the Crossfire Hurricane team obtained information from Steele's Primary Sub-source in January 2017 that raised significant questions about the reliability of the Steele reporting that was used in the Carter Page FISA applications. This was particularly noteworthy because the FISA applications relied entirely on information from the Steele reporting to support the allegation that Page was coordinating with the Russian government on 2016 U.S. presidential election activities. However, members of the Crossfire Hurricane team failed to share the information about the Primary Sub-source's information with the Department, and...

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'relied entirely'.....That's not what Schiff's HPSCI memo said. You can read the latter here:
https://docs.house.gov/meetings/ig/ig00/20180205/106838/hmtg-115-ig00-20180205-sd002.pdf

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Schiff is a liar. HTH

MouthBQ98 said:

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When exactly, in January, was this determined, versus when a special counsel was authorized?

The timing here could be critical for several persons involved.

In fact, the timing could indicate the creation of the special counsel investigation was expressly for the purpose of concealing that discovery for as long as possible due to the power such a person would have to protect evidence from discovery from others and to ward off the curios with threats of obstruction.

I hate to be a conspiracy theorist, but this is a plausible motive, or partial motive, for the creation of the Mueller SC investigation, even if only a tiny number of persons were in the know regarding the this being an intended benefit of its creation to some, politically.

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From drcrinum's link:

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The Primary Sub-source also informed WFO Agent 1 that Steele tasked him/her after the 2016 U.S. elections to find corroboration for the election reporting and that the Primary Sub-source could find none. According to WFO Agent 1, during an interview in May 2017, the Primary Sub-source said the corroboration was "zero." The Primary Sub-source had reported the same conclusion to the Crossfire Hurricane team members who interviewed him/her in January 2017.

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Comey is directly implicated by the January 2017 302.

Mueller is directly implicated by May 2017, the same month he was appointed. Now it might have taken a few weeks to get the Crossfire Hurricane team assembled on his staff and for them to brief him. But unless the information from both the interview by Crossfire Hurricane team member in May and the Washington Field Office agent in January were withheld from him (unlikely due to his subsequent action in requesting a change in his jurisdiction) he's incriminated, in my view. At a minimum, Weissmann should be as well.

My .02.

goatchze said:

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This whole thing is gonna make one helluva Netflix special one day.

Good to have it all documented here.

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"NETLFIX???????" Their version would NOT be anywhere near what you apparently expect.

MouthBQ98 said:

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When exactly, in January, was this determined, versus when a special counsel was authorized?

The timing here could be critical for several persons involved.

In fact, the timing could indicate the creation of the special counsel investigation was expressly for the purpose of concealing that discovery for as long as possible due to the power such a person would have to protect evidence from discovery from others and to ward off the curios with threats of obstruction.

I hate to be a conspiracy theorist, but this is a plausible motive, or partial motive, for the creation of the Mueller SC investigation, even if only a tiny number of persons were in the know regarding the this being an intended benefit of its creation to some, politically.

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I believe this is what Q was saying, that the Mueller investigation was an effort to pin Trump down from counter attacking.

aggiehawg said:

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MouthBQ98 said:

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If multiple people in leadership knew they were carrying out a baseless and unfounded investigation that required multiple deceptions of courts and other official falsifications or omissions to sustain, what is that but a criminal conspiracy by definition?

The DOJ bureaucracy can persist in the sanctimonious delusion and rationalization that surely if their motives were pure than their means were justified, but if they knew from almost the beginning that they had absolutely nothing of substance, they in fact DID engage in a seditious conspiracy. They in fact DID materially alter the political outcome of the 2018 midterm elections and the operation of the executive branch via this drawn out baseless special counsel investigation, at least insofar as they should have cleared Trump immediately, even if they intended to pursue other persons for other unrelated crimes.

Biggest political conspiracy in a century. This is way beyond Watergate in its implications.

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Agree. Think how differently Trump's first term would have gone if two months into his appointment Mueller had announced there was nothing there, no collusion? Instead, he went back to Rosenstein not once but twice to change and expand his jurisdiction.

Aaaannnndd Mueller is an even bigger POS.

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And the 2018 mid-term election.

I wish somewhere there was a Readers Digest Condensed version of this. Some kind of summary that I could use to explain to stupid lib relatives what a big fail this and the impeachment really is.

drcrinum said:

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aggiehawg said:

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Missed this yesterday. Horowitz testified that the only Trump campaign official FISA warrant they found was the one on Carter Page. No Flynn FISA, No Manafort FISA, No Papadopoulus FISA.

Hhmm.

LINK

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I wonder how many applications were denied, & what were the reasons for denial.

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From what I understood, not many FISAs are denied. Isn't that what the 98% number mentioned in the hearing yesterday?

Just send them the Cruz questioning. Then, ask them how they would feel if someone did it to them... so they can answer with their feelz.

In all honesty, I don't even try to bother with lib relatives. I won't change their mind until they are truly impacted by a stupid lib policy that pushes them back into the light.

MooreTrucker said:

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I wish somewhere there was a Readers Digest Condensed version of this. Some kind of summary that I could use to explain to stupid lib relatives what a big fail this and the impeachment really is.

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I nominate Drcrinum for 'research' and Aggiehawg for the 'narrative'. There are others, but memory is not my forte'.

Lump me in with the peanut gallery

whatthehey78 said:

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MooreTrucker said:

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I wish somewhere there was a Readers Digest Condensed version of this. Some kind of summary that I could use to explain to stupid lib relatives what a big fail this and the impeachment really is.

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I nominate Drcrinum for 'research' and Aggiehawg for the 'narrative'. There are others, but memory is not my forte'.

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Chapter One:

Call me Ishmael.

Some years ago--never mind how long precisely --having little or no money in my purse, and nothing particular to interest me on shore, I thought I would sail about a little and see the watery part of the world. It is a way I have of driving off the spleen, and regulating the circulation. Whenever I find myself growing grim about the mouth; whenever it is a damp, drizzly November in my soul; whenever I find myself involuntarily pausing before coffin warehouses, and bringing up the rear of every funeral I meet; and especially whenever my hypos get such an upper hand of me, that it requires a strong moral principle to prevent me from deliberately stepping into the street, and methodically knocking people's hats off--then, I account it high time to get to sea as soon as I can.

aggiehawg said:

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whatthehey78 said:

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MooreTrucker said:

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I wish somewhere there was a Readers Digest Condensed version of this. Some kind of summary that I could use to explain to stupid lib relatives what a big fail this and the impeachment really is.

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I nominate Drcrinum for 'research' and Aggiehawg for the 'narrative'. There are others, but memory is not my forte'.

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Chapter One:

Call me Ishmael.

Some years ago--never mind how long precisely --having little or no money in my purse, and nothing particular to interest me on shore, I thought I would sail about a little and see the watery part of the world. It is a way I have of driving off the spleen, and regulating the circulation. Whenever I find myself growing grim about the mouth; whenever it is a damp, drizzly November in my soul; whenever I find myself involuntarily pausing before coffin warehouses, and bringing up the rear of every funeral I meet; and especially whenever my hypos get such an upper hand of me, that it requires a strong moral principle to prevent me from deliberately stepping into the street, and methodically knocking people's hats off--then, I account it high time to get to sea as soon as I can.

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Going to be REALLY interesting how you tie all the characters together. Put me on the list for a signed copy "first edition"!

Wish I knew you folks personally. Someone needs to plan/set a date/conduct a casual meeting/get-2-gather/reunion union of the 'faithful' on this thread.

I am pretty sure that I would feel a little bit more than slightly outclassed by some of the regulars on this thread!

Ditto!

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Going to be REALLY interesting how you tie all the characters together. Put me on the list for a signed copy "first edition"!

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Obviously Trump is Moby Dick. There is a cast of thousands for Ahab.

I've been reading the IG report for several hours today, & I've come across something which we haven't highlighted.

Kevin Clinesmith is apparently the FBI attorney who altered the email about Carter Page being associated with another government agency = CIA. This is discussed in the IG Report in Chapter 8, specifically pp. 247+ for particulars. He's been nailed; you can read the details yourself. He may have acted alone in this cover-up...we'll see. But, this action by Clinesmith was taken with regard to the third & final FISA application renewal, so you understand the time frame...late in the game. (We have touched on this subject in our thread.)

There is a more important, much earlier date that is hanging in the breeze IMO. It's more complicated, so I'll give you some details. You should be a little familiar with the Evgeny Buryakov indictment by SDNY which involved Carter Page. Details of relevance provided pp. 61+ in the IG Report. Page interacted with a Russian intelligence officer & was named as MALE-1 in the indictment. Page had informed FBI involved in the case that he had an affiliation with another government agency, at which time the FBI said no further discussion would be conducted regarding this issue. Page, following the indictment, told Russian officials that he was MALE-1 in the indictment, which the prosecutor found very disturbing, & I believe (not fully positive) that Page never agreed to testify had there been a trial. Anyway, SDNY decided Page was suspicious & wasn't up to snuff & opened a CI on him in April 2016. Page, however, had informed the CIA of at least some of his interactions. My interpretation was that Page was apparently a CIA informant (see below)...but I can't be positive.

So the Crossfire Hurricane people were aware that SDNY had opened a CI on Page, & that particular CI was transferred to Crossfire Hurricane -- SDNY probably had accomplished very little in its investigation. Now this is where Case Agent 1 comes into play. Case Agent 1 was with Crossfire Hurricane from the start, & he was involved with the initial work on drafting the FISA application. On August 17, 2016, following an inquiry, the CIA sent a memorandum stating that Carter Page had been approved as an 'operational contact' during the period of 2008-2013 (covering the Buryakov episode). This memorandum, as best I can tell, was seen only by Case Agent 1, but again, I can't be certain. Case Agent 1 completely misrepresented this memorandum -- see pp. 157+ for particulars, including:

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Toward that end, on September 28, 2016, the 01 Attorney emailed Case Agent 1 a draft of the FISA application, copying other members of the Crossfire Hurricane team. In a comment in the draft application, the 01 Attorney asked "do we know if there is any truth to Page's claim that he has provided information to [another U.S. government agency]-was he considered a source/asset/whatever?" In response to the 01 Attorney's question, on September 29, Case Agent 1 inserted the following comment in the draft:

"He did meet with [the other U.S. government agency], however, it's dated and I would argue it was/is outside scope, I don't think we need it in. It was years ago, when he was in Moscow. If you want to keep it, I can get the language from the [August 17 Memorandum] we were provided [by the other U.S. government agency]."294

Based upon this response, the 01 Attorney did not include information about Page's prior relationship with the other agency in the FISA application.

However, the information Case Agent 1 provided to the 01 Attorney was inaccurate. As described in the August 17 Memorandum from the other U.S. government agency to the FBI, Page first met with the other agency in April 2008, after he left Moscow (Page had lived in Moscow from 2004 to 2007), and he had been approved as an operational contact for the other agency from 2008 to 2013. Additionally, rather than being outside the scope of the FISA application, the FISA application included allegations about meetings that Page had with Russian intelligence officers that Page had disclosed to the other agency. Specifically, according to the August 17 Memorandum, Page provided information to the other agency in October 2010 about contacts he had with a Russian intelligence officer (Intelligence Officer 1), which the other agency assessed likely began in 2008. Page's contacts with Intelligence Officer 1 in 2007 and 2008 were among the historical connections to Russian intelligence officers that the FBI relied upon in the first FISA application (and subsequent renewal applications) to help support probable cause. 295 The August 17 Memorandum stated that Page told the other agency that he met with Intelligence Officer 1 four times, characterized him as a "compelling, nice guy," and described Intelligence Officer l's alleged interest in contacting an identified U.S. person. According to the August 17 Memorandum, the employee of the other U.S. government agency who met with Page assessed that Page "candidly described his contact with" Intelligence Officer 1. Page's relationship with the other agency was not mentioned in any of the four FISA applications

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There's more in the following, including Case Agent 1's wishy-washy response to questioning, but the above is the pertinent facts.

It's just so convenient that this August 17 Memorandum from the CIA was 'overlooked'.

Cocaine Mitch on Hannity tonight.

I bring this up because I need y'alls thoughts. McConnell brings up coordinating with the WH counsel a minimum of four times. He does it so many times, that I think McConnell is somewhat pissed that the WH is encroaching on his power in the Senate.

He certainly doesn't seem bitter, but it's just an observation on my part. OTOH, it's fairly reassuring to hear McConnell this confident.

fasthorse05 said:

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Cocaine Mitch on Hannity tonight.

I bring this up because I need y'alls thoughts. McConnell brings up coordinating with the WH counsel a minimum of four times. He does it so many times, that I think McConnell is somewhat pissed that the WH is encroaching on his power in the Senate.

He certainly doesn't seem bitter, but it's just an observation on my part. OTOH, it's fairly reassuring to hear McConnell this confident.

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I view McConnell's statements as reinforcing the unity of the Republicans in Congress and Trump in battling against an absurdly weak impeachment.

McConnell was extremely proud of all the judges he has managed to get appointed to the Circuit Courts with Trump's help.

Trump even wrote a foreword in McConnell's book which was recently released in paperback.

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McConnell was extremely proud of all the judges he has managed to get appointed to the Circuit Courts with Trump's help.

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That is the one thing every conservative and Republican can say War Turtle is very good at. He believes in getting conservative judges on the bench, and pushes them through as quickly as possible, nor does he tolerate Democrat shenanigans.

https://www.realclearinvestigations.com/articles/2019/12/11/the_carter_page-ukraine_lie_that_kept_on_lying_for_mueller_and_the_fbi_121590.html

This doesn't sound like much, but the Steele Dossier contained a report that Carter Page was influential in changing a plank in the Republican Platform about arming Ukraine, in effect showing sympathy to Russia's invasion of Crimea, & this was utilized in the FISA application to demonstrate coordination with the Russians. There were news reports about it in the MSM in July 2016. You can read Sperry's account above, but it's toned down. Better to read the entire section devoted to it in the IG Report, pp 263-268, where you can see where they refused to change/correct/amend the FISA renewal applications in the face of mounting evidence that Steele's report about Ukraine was bogus. And as becoming a pattern, it's Case Agent 1 who was the principal culprit, along with SSA 1 (Joe Pientka).

I am beginning to think that Case Agent 1 may have played a more important role than Strzok.