Thanks. Just finished watching the clip. Here's to hoping Rudy has the goods on that.

aggiehawg said:

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Thanks. Just finished watching the clip. Here's to hoping Rudy has the goods on that.

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I don't doubt Rudy's legal acumen or his, or his accomplishments. Everyone ages, and everyone slows down mentally. I don't know how much you know about Guilianni, but do you still think he can bring the goods---professionally?

While I have my doubts about his recent political marketing campaign, I'm hoping the WH political plans bear fruit, in particular what you said, "the goods".

Of course, if it's the goods are similar to what our Leftist friends bring, it should be simple to prove guilt. Hell, we could probably prove guilt on 50 Obama employees using their difinition of guilt.

I don't think Rudy is slowing down or missing a step as much as his filter is malfunctioning. Man has gumball disease where if he thinks it, he says it. Wish he would put a sock in it more often.

While I would normally trust Rudy's credibility assessments of those with whom he is dealing, when it comes to Ukraine, one has to question damn near every one and every thing, including "official government records." Too easy to alter and forge documents over there as well as everyone having their own personal agenda, which usually involves a continuation of sucking at the same teat they have been.

Why I hope he has the "goods" meaning authentic and reliable information and is not being led down the garden path.

Call me cautiously optimistic but nervous.

aggiehawg said:

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I don't think Rudy is slowing down or missing a step as much as his filter is malfunctioning. Man has gumball disease where if he thinks it, he says it. Wish he would put a sock in it more often.

While I would normally trust Rudy's credibility assessments of those with whom he is dealing, when it comes to Ukraine, one has to question damn near every one and every thing, including "official government records." Too easy to alter and forge documents over there as well as everyone having their own personal agenda, which usually involves a continuation of sucking at the same teat they have been.

Why I hope he has the "goods" meaning authentic and reliable information and is not being led down the garden path.

Call me cautiously optimistic but nervous.

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Based on someone altering 302's, I'm not sure that's a 100% verifiable statement anymore...

Point taken. Unfortunately. Arrrrghhh.

The only silver lining is that altering documents here is not SOP like it is in Ukraine or at least it wasn't until the last two decades or so. Not for the line workers anyway.

A little old but just a reminder:

MouthBQ98 said:

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So, they asked intelligence analysts to not analyze the quality of their data, something critical to their very purpose and to establishing how useful and reliable it would be and to guide the direction of further investigation, because they didn't want that analysis of quality available to defendants?

Did they consider that it might render the quality of the investigation itself to the level of unquantified questionable and therefore largely useless garbage?

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Agree. I can't even pretend to understand the thought process they used to arrive at that procedure. Credibility assessment of witnesses is something lawyers must do nearly every day. Yet the FBI was tying both of their hands behind their backs on purpose.

MouthBQ98 said:

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The procedure is they presume they are right due to hubris and know what helps them get cases that win in court, thus upholding the "nearly infallible" reputation that federal law enforcement and prosecution had generated with a very high conviction rate. That is what I have to imagine came to be. A deviation from doing justice to winning convictions.

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Yep, win at all costs. Damn the facts, justice, and the law.

More of Obama's fundamental transformation of the federal government.

Would this jeopardize previous convictions?

will25u said:

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Would this jeopardize previous convictions?

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It very well could. Any conviction based off the use of a CHS where the government declared there was no Brady or Giglio material might possibly be reopened.

Quote:

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More of Obama's fundamental transformation of the federal government.

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I guarantee this has been going on for much longer than Obama.

Bureaucracies exist to perpetuate themselves, regardless of what their stated objective is. And if the bureaucrats are judged by conviction rates in terms of promotion and career opportunities, this is what you will get: win at all costs, justice be damned.

Read Col. David Hackworth's autobiography "About Face". It's a great book in its own right, but he talks about how the Army in Vietnam put so much emphasis on enemy "body count", and it had such an inordinate impact on how officers were graded and as such on their career prospects that the numbers were inflated beyond reason to feed the expectations of the commanders. Basically the Army was incentivizing peole lying, so they got lies.

JJMt said:

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Quote:

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Read Col. David Hackworth's autobiography "About Face". It's a great book in its own right, but he talks about how the Army in Vietnam put so much emphasis on enemy "body count", and it had such an inordinate impact on how officers were graded and as such on their career prospects that the numbers were inflated beyond reason to feed the expectations of the commanders. Basically the Army was incentivizing peole lying, so they got lies.

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At the risk of derailing this wonderful thread, I'll add an anecdote to support the point above. My dad was an infantry major in Vietnam. During a siege of a compound where he was located, HQ and/or the Pentagon kept insisting that he provide them with daily body counts of enemy combatants from the previous day's combat.

My dad has told me that there was no way that he was going to endanger the lives of his troops by sending them outside the compound for pointless body counts, so he'd simply "estimate" (i.e., make them up) each day and send them in.

Everyone was happy.

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AND, let's not forget the whole damn conflict was initiated using a boldface lie...Tonkin Bay resolution...50k+ American dead and untold Vietnamese. Judgement Day will not be pretty!

Here's a WSJ article on the feds investing Rudy. Is this Barr? Does Trump have any control over this? I just can't se. Obama's DOJ investigating his personal lawyer.
https://www.wsj.com/articles/federal-subpoenas-seek-information-on-giulianis-consulting-business-11574712722

cbr said:

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Everyone here understands that all Obama era hr and hiring for doj and fbi was vetted by acorn, correct?

Not joking. Not speculating. That is proven truth. Deliberate communist anti American corrupt planting.

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You are not kidding? Not quoting some rumor mill? That would explain much. The "fire all between '08-and '17 approach would have been the right idea then.

GreyhoundDad said:

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Here's a WSJ article on the feds investing Rudy. Is this Barr? Does Trump have any control over this? I just can't se. Obama's DOJ investigating his personal lawyer.
https://www.wsj.com/articles/federal-subpoenas-seek-information-on-giulianis-consulting-business-11574712722

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Anything Trump does like that would be instant impeachment for "obstruction of justice" and only God know what other charges. It might even give some of the Republicans a real excuse to vote to remove.

As I said on another thread, the SDNY has been gunning for Trump and anyone around him since day one.

It is payback for Trump firing Preet Bharara, who is likely still running the SDNY through his people who remain there, one of which is James Comey's daughter.

Quote:

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Read Col. David Hackworth's autobiography "About Face". It's a great book in its own right, but he talks about how the Army in Vietnam put so much emphasis on enemy "body count", and it had such an inordinate impact on how officers were graded and as such on their career prospects that the numbers were inflated beyond reason to feed the expectations of the commanders. Basically the Army was incentivizing peole lying, so they got lies.

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Mark Cancian's "Murphy's Laws of War" describes body count math this way:

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"Body count math is: two guerrillas plus one possible plus a blood trail plus two pigs=37 enemy killed in action."

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Not saying I doubt you but could you provide a link to the documentation of the proven truth? I've read J. Christian Adams' book and I don't recall even him providing evidence of Acorn vetting hires.

titan said:

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cbr said:

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Everyone here understands that all Obama era hr and hiring for doj and fbi was vetted by acorn, correct?

Not joking. Not speculating. That is proven truth. Deliberate communist anti American corrupt planting.

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You are not kidding? Not quoting some rumor mill? That would explain much. The "fire all between '08-and '17 approach would have been the right idea then.

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Judicial watch FOIA lawsuits uncovered that little gem. along with a LOT of other **** that never gets reported.

Ulysses90 said:

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Not saying I doubt you but could you provide a link to the documentation of the proven truth? I've read J. Christian Adams' book and I don't recall even him providing evidence of Acorn vetting hires.

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not much online, read the finton books for more detail on the actual lawsuits and FOIA recoveries. discussed briefly here:

https://www.globenewswire.com/news-release/2011/12/14/1046759/0/en/Judicial-Watch-New-Documents-Show-Department-of-Justice-Coordination-With-ACORN-Connected-Project-Vote.html


https://spectator.org/acorn-visits-obama-white-house/

http://www.akdart.com/acorn.html

will25u said:

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Why would the day and time be redacted?

Pardon my ignorance, but why is that important?

GCP12 said:

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Pardon my ignorance, but why is that important?

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My guess is removing the "knowing" part of committing fraud on a federal court. No harm no foul for misrepresenting something in court, unless it is proven you had no reasonable belief that you were not lying on purpose.

https://theconservativetreehouse.com/2019/11/25/disturbing-likelihood-fbi-lawyer-manipulated-carter-pages-own-communication-with-fbi-to-target-him/

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Michael E. Horowitz, uncovered errors and omissions in documents related to the wiretapping of a former Trump campaign adviser, Carter Page including that a low-level lawyer, Kevin Clinesmith, altered an email that officials used to prepare to seek court approval to renew the wiretap, the people said.

The renewals were: Jan 12th, April 7th, June 29th, 2017. However, we know from the redacted release of the FISA application there was no material added in the first renewal in January 2017. So that leaves either the April '17 renewal or the June '17 renewal.

We know from the Washington Post and the New York Times leaks, again based on principal reviews of the IG report content, that FBI Lawyer Kevin Clinesmith modified an email:

Horowitz found that the employee [Kevin Clinesmith] erroneously indicated he had documentation to back up a claim he had made in discussions with the Justice Department about the factual basis for the application. He then altered an email to back up that erroneous claim (link)

That means Kevin Clinesmith modified an email, which then became part of the woods file evidence (citation by FBI FISA warrant lawyer Sally Moyer) to support either the April renewal or the June, 2017, renewal of the FISA application.

The stunning likelihood here is that the email Kevin Clinesmith edited and falsified as part of his FISA renewal manipulation was email communication from Carter Page himself.

It is also important to note the phrase: "and his colleagues"; and then overlay what Carter Page says there with an earlier leaked explanation: "Mr. Clinesmith took an email from an official at another federal agency that contained several factual assertions, then added material to the bottom that looked like another assertion from the email's author, when it was instead his own."

It is jaw-dropping to think about the FBI team manipulating communication from the target of an unlawful investigation to continue targeting that individual. Yes, this speaks to stunningly criminal intent. and that criminal exposure would extend to any individual or entity participating in such an egregious, unlawful and unconstitutional violations of Page's fourth amendment rights with a falsified application to the FISA court.

UPDATE 5:45pm: Techno is in contact with the background participants; he is able to relay information. Carter Page is confirming he emailed with the FBI including Kevin Clinesmith at 07:43:51 EDT on April 6th, 2017, the morning of the day before the second FISA renewal:

This April 6th date confirmation and contact timeline now makes additional sense.

Considering NOTHING was ever changed in the January renewal; and considering the DOJ/FBI legally had to have *something* change in order to get the April renewal; there would have been a great deal of pressure on FBI lawyer Clinesmith to create something if nothing existed.

Important context: The FISA application (and first renewal documentation) was delivered to the SSCI (via James Wolfe) on March 17th, 2017, as requested by democrat Senator Mark Warner. We know this from the release last year. This SSCI delivery is three weeks before the second renewal on April 7th. This SSCI FISA delivery was also leaked by SSCI Security Director James Wolfe to journalist Ali Watkins at Buzzfeed. Keep this in mind.

Carter Page emailing with Kevin Clinesmith on the morning of April 6th prior to Clinesmith manipulating the content of an email to support his falsified documentation for the next renewal, April 7th, highlights the lack of evidence the FBI was able to discover in the seven previous months. However, the FBI team wasn't going to be deterred by the lack of evidence; instead they just made it up.

The timeline here is critical.

Clinesmith likely manipulated the FISA renewal in April because by law extending the FISA surveillance must be based on new evidence gathered. In the following month Clinesmith transfers to the newly created Mueller probe. According to the New York Times and Michael Horowitz: "[Clinesmith] was among the F.B.I. officials removed by the special counsel, Robert S. Mueller III, after Mr. Horowitz found text messages expressing political animus against Mr. Trump."

The manipulated evidence FBI lawyer Kevin Clinesmith fabricated was then used by the team of Peter Strzok, Andrew Weissmann, Robert Mueller and Clinesmith for the objectives of the special counsel.

Again, another overlay, keep in mind that Robert Mueller asked Deputy AG Rod Rosenstein to extend the scope of his investigation twice more after the original appointment of the special counsel.

That means Special Counsel Robert Mueller used a falsified FISA warrant as part of his investigation; and that material exploitation continued after team members within the special counsel became aware the FBI members were compromised and likely the FISA warrant application itself was falsified.

Yeah, depending on what people within the Mueller knew and when they knew it, this IG report on FISA abuses could be much more consequential than the media would currently like to admit.

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