It might have worked with someone other than Trump

Appalled and disgusted about how deep this goes. Unfortunately, I think we are only just beginning...

While you are here, blindey, what do you think Judge Sullivan will do if the second FBI Special Agent (the one named by Grassley) testifies that the 302s were altered in the Flynn case? Besides, tossing the plea deal, what will he do to Team Mueller?

aggiehawg said:

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While you are here, blindey, what do you think Judge Sullivan will do if the second FBI Special Agent (the one named by Grassley) testifies that the 302s were altered in the Flynn case? Besides, tossing the plea deal, what will he do to Team Mueller?

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Speaking of Grassley, this tweet made me waste coffee

I have wondered the same thing as Chuck in regards to Trump's tweets.

You can pretty much tell the ones he tweets himself and the ones his social media team tweets out.

I think the analysis as to what he will do directly is actually pretty narrow in one sense because they weren't subject to his Brady order until the case got passed to his court. That is, assuming that the Mueller crew did what they were supposed to do when they got the order.

If that is the case, they get off a bit lighter. They probably get sanctioned and referred to the D.D.C. admissions committee for review. (for non-lawyers, if the federal court in DC suspends you, that suspension gets forwarded to every federal court you're admitted in and every state bar. It is a de facto suspension of your law license). I think he also pulls their pants down vis a vis forcing them to cough up all of the background information they used to get the plea in the first place as a sort of road map for subsequent prosecutions.

If they have been coy about following the Brady order (or failed to do so completely) I think its pretty obvious that he throws the book at as many people as he sees necessary. And I think that playing coy actually draws a worse reaction than just being disobedient.

Just a guess. Who really knows. But it's telling (and I had completely forgot) that Flynn was never indicted by a grand jury and now the wheels are falling off. Mueller's success at indicting a ham sandwich seriously damages his credibility in my opinion.

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I think the analysis as to what he will do directly is actually pretty narrow in one sense because they weren't subject to his Brady order until the case got passed to his court. That is, assuming that the Mueller crew did what they were supposed to do when they got the order.

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If they had, they wouldn't be postponing the sentencing time after time, IMO.

I see it this way. Mueller has lost containment with Grassley publicly naming Pientka as the other Special Agent in the Flynn matter. We'll see if there are any new court filings in the Flynn case as a result.

But specifically, I was wondering about the criminal contempt part of his Brady Order.

aggiehawg said:

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I think the analysis as to what he will do directly is actually pretty narrow in one sense because they weren't subject to his Brady order until the case got passed to his court. That is, assuming that the Mueller crew did what they were supposed to do when they got the order.

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If they had, they wouldn't be postponing the sentencing time after time, IMO.

I see it this way. Mueller has lost containment with Grassley publicly naming Pientka as the other Special Agent in the Flynn matter. We'll see if there are any new court filings in the Flynn case as a result.

But specifically, I was wondering about the criminal contempt part of his Brady Order.

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I read one of the opinions he authored in the Ted Stephens debacle. I think I've posted before that the reason there was no criminal contempt in that case is because there wasn't a court order putting them on notice that criminal contempt is in play.

In this case, I would follow the same analysis and say that criminal contempt isn't in play until the first Brady order is docketed.

So the question is what info did team Mueller have and when did they have it? Is he the one running point on information containment? I've been trying to figure out if Mueller has all of the information that could possibly be had or if he's being slow-rolled information from sources inside the DOJ. Either might be plausible.

If it is someone inside the DOJ slow rolling info to Mueller (with Grassley dropping bombs), then Mueller gets away with less bruising. If it's not, he ded. Sullivan, for all of his foibles, doesn't strike me as the kind of judge that would take kindly to that sort of shenanigans going on in his or anyone's court.

To be clear, I hear the question you're asking, I just don't have a good answer.

Regarding your earlier post, this is Joe DiGenova's take on the NSA IG report regarding Brennan's request to oust Adm. Rogers, and the mysterious departure of John Carlin, among other things. He sums it up nicely.

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So the question is what info did team Mueller have and when did they have it? Is he the one running point on information containment? I've been trying to figure out if Mueller has all of the information that could possibly be had or if he's being slow-rolled information from sources inside the DOJ. Either might be plausible.

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Peter Strzok was removed from Team Mueller and has been cooling his jets in a cubicle in the HR department since last summer. As one of the interviewing agents on the Flynn matter, it is safe to presume Mueller knows what he knows. Ditto for Pientka. He had to have interviewed him before filing the information.

The alternative is that Mueller engaged in willfull blindness and didn't properly build his case before bringing it. Ignorance of the facts is not the hill Mueller should choose to die on, in my view. But it just might be his only play at this point in the Flynn matter. Having his bestie, Comey, out there spewing contradictory statements on the agents' finding of no deception certainly doesn't bolster Mueller's case.

Neither alternative makes a lick of sense, especially for someone like Mueller who (I thought, anyways) has a brain.

But I guess he was given marching orders and opted to go for a fast kill to get the ball rolling.

Maybe he was just too much of a true believer in his/Comey's/the media/Obama holdover's bull**** to stop and think like a prosecutor ought to think.

In any event, if it comes out that Mueller got a guilty plea via a non-grand jury charging instrument based on altered FBI paperwork when the truth was something else, they're in a lot of trouble. To say the least.

Okay, y'all, I know Meuller is a hell of an attorney. You just don't rise to his levels by political favors, and/or who you know. I have an enormous issue, and believe he's culpable for the four men in the Bulger case, but you don't gain that type of reputation (and not just from Dems), by repeatedly missing the details it takes to win.

Now, I understand over-confidence/arrogance, but it seems he's made 2 or 3 glaring errors. I realize everyone is human, and IT'S CERTAINLY NOT OVER, but it appears the Dems bought someone who's mind isn't in the game.

Am I out of line here? Like I said, I hope all manner of insects crawl in his ears tonight, but like bad guys setting a trap, are we finding things out too easily?

aggiehawg said:

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In any event, if it comes out that Mueller got a guilty plea via a non-grand jury charging instrument based on altered FBI paperwork when the truth was something else, they're in a lot of trouble. To say the least.

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Not to mention a massive civil lawsuit against them personally, brought by Flynn. They can't hide behind the US taxpayers for that type of situation.

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I REALLY, REALLY, look forward to that day.

Maybe we could divert some Iran monies to Flynn for the setttlement.

aggiehawg said:

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So the question is what info did team Mueller have and when did they have it? Is he the one running point on information containment? I've been trying to figure out if Mueller has all of the information that could possibly be had or if he's being slow-rolled information from sources inside the DOJ. Either might be plausible.

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Peter Strzok was removed from Team Mueller and has been cooling his jets in a cubicle in the HR department since last summer. As one of the interviewing agents on the Flynn matter, it is safe to presume Mueller knows what he knows. Ditto for Pientka. He had to have interviewed him before filing the information.

The alternative is that Mueller engaged in willfull blindness and didn't properly build his case before bringing it. Ignorance of the facts is not the hill Mueller should choose to die on, in my view. But it just might be his only play at this point in the Flynn matter. Having his bestie, Comey, out there spewing contradictory statements on the agents' finding of no deception certainly doesn't bolster Mueller's case.

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As more info comes out and with the complete disarray of ALL of their cases I really wonder if there is a case to be made for the entire SC to be a honey-pot.

They've essentially taken a large number of top-line Clinton/Dem lawyers off the board for any forth-coming legal battles and they've so thoroughly gotten out over their skis that many of them may have irreparably damaged their careers.

Could it be that Mueller is letting them just have their heads, so to speak, and isn't really directing them to do any this... just not telling them no either...

If Mueller was a good lawyer, he would be running from being a participant in the scheme to take out Trump. Or he may be stupid. Or he may be in so deep there is no escape.

Crazy stuff.

A lot of Mueller's team are appellate attorneys with their trial experience way behind them. And who knows the last time Mueller himself tried a case. Their skills get rusty.

As I have stated multiple times, information derived from a counter-intel operation is hard to fit into the round hole that is the criminal justice system.

In my view, the Russian indictment was showboating for PR purposes instead of a thoughtful, considered action. Even though he is a Special Counsel with prosecutorial authority doesn't mean he has to prosecute. He could have just as easily written a report containing the allegations, given it to Congress to consider whether further sanctions or diplomacy was required. Another Magnitsky Act, if you will.

But now he has opened Pandora's Box and the Russians are gunning for him in court.

Per an uncited post on the Q thread, IG report comes out this afternoon.

I am assuming Tiger Droppings and I don't buy it.

blindey said:

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Per an uncited post on the Q thread, IG report comes out this afternoon.

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Oh goody, goody! Need to run to the store and get some popcorn.

Someone needs to post a "it's happening" gif with Horowitz's face...

backintexas2013 said:

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I am assuming Tiger Droppings and I don't buy it.

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Yeah that is what it looks like. False alarm, people.

I think that a lot of the action with Mueller seems to follow when Trump has a good week. Whenever it seems he is getting traction there seems to Ben a "Russia " dump a day or two later. I think they have or had things queued up for that purpose and they didn't think the Russian company indictment would lead to anything but keep the narrative going against trump. Problem is they are starting to push back.

aggiehawg said:

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blindey said:

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Per an uncited post on the Q thread, IG report comes out this afternoon.

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Oh goody, goody! Need to run to the store and get some popcorn.

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More importantly, do we know anyone here who's a speed reader?

I don't believe I've EVER looked forward to reading a bunch legalese government prose!!

My guess since Warner is backtracking people think something big is going to hit and he is getting out in front of it. That probably led to someone making that prediction

Someone posted the same guess on Q thread.

It's not that hard to do!



Oops - I didn't see you mention Horowitz

When it does come out, will we keep the discussion here? It will get destroyed out in the wilds of forum 16.

I will likely discuss it both places. Here for serious discussion out there for laughs.

I have noticed some people missing lately from out there. Was there a mass banning?

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I have noticed some people missing lately from out there. Was there a mass banning?

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Yes, not sure who all got a week or more off. I'd have to try and find the thread if it hasn't been completely nuked.

As for the res libs, they only show up to either troll, or post talking points.

The denial out there will be strong.

blindey said:

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backintexas2013 said:

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I am assuming Tiger Droppings and I don't buy it.

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Yeah that is what it looks like. False alarm, people.

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It was a 4chan post that was posted on the TD thread, to be precise

Wow one thread took that many down? Had to be a McCain thread.