It's a good point but the Brits going along with this makes me think many of them are suffering from TDS as well and could at least leak the information but keep the mole's name on the qt.

friscodick said:

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It's a good point but the Brits going along with this makes me think many of them are suffering from TDS as well and could at least leak the information but keep the mole's name on the qt.

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Very much so, British establishment (Anti-Brexit) are thick and have zero love for Trump. They will resort to anything to stop his movement, which is fueling the Brexit crowd to sustain the backlash of Brexit being passed. The British establishment is still trying to change the vote thru Parliamentary tricks.

friscodick said:

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It's a good point but the Brits going along with this makes me think many of them are suffering from TDS as well and could at least leak the information but keep the mole's name on the qt.

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The head of GCHQ abruptly resigned right after Trump's inauguration, January 23rd, 2017 to be exact. Hannigan quit for "family reasons."

Plus, Theresa May suddenly became PM in mid July, 2016. Whatever Cameron was up to, she wouldn't have known for some time afterwards. A lot was in flux during that time period.

A few of the European politicos are beginning to crawl out of the woodwork. Notice that Podesta'a name is mentioned...been awhile.

drcrinum said:

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https://threadreaderapp.com/thread/966909619367899136.html

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Manafort made his approach to Team Trump in Jan/Feb 2016 & was appointed on 29 March. Papadopoulos made his approach at the same time, joining in mid-March. What else happened at that time?

9. The DNC/Clinton team was engaged with Fusion GPS, via Perkins Coie. The official line is that this started in 'early March' and that Fusion approached Perkins. That sounds like BS to me.

10. When the truth emerges, I think we will see that Fusion GPS & the DNC/Clinton team were collaborating much earlier than that, possibly in late 2015. We will see. Either way, Manafort, Papadopoulos & Fusion GPS all enter the scene AT THE SAME TIME.

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A new thread with some thoughts by Rex. I've posted an interesting segment above.

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Manafort has been involved in damn every GOP presidential campaign since Gerald Ford. Why is this never reported?

captkirk said:

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drcrinum said:

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Manafort has been involved in damn every GOP presidential campaign since Gerald Ford. Why is this never reported?

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It's all in that long read I posted a few days ago.

https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2018/03/paul-manafort-american-hustler/550925/

Knowing that he has has been a major player in GOP politics for such a long time, it's easy to see why Trump hired him...his CV would have been impressive as hell. The MSM much prefers to paint Manafort as a slime wad and criminal, but IMO he is cut out of the exact same mold as his corresponding 'heavyweight' colleagues on the Dems side, the Podesta Brothers. They are all 5-star used-car salesmen.

https://theconservativetreehouse.com/2018/02/24/tying-all-the-loose-threads-together-doj-fbi-dos-white-house-operation-latitude/#more-146256

Good piece of sleuthing by TCTH. He has deduced that the info about the 'wrong' Michael Cohen (Trump lawyer) being included in the dossier could only have resulted from an illegal 702 Query. He ties in all the activities and how this came about. Good read.

Ratcliffe is very impressive IMO. He is non-confrontational and speaks with the voice of reason. A good watch -- 6 minutes.

drcrinum said:

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https://theconservativetreehouse.com/2018/02/24/tying-all-the-loose-threads-together-doj-fbi-dos-white-house-operation-latitude/#more-146256

Good piece of sleuthing by TCTH. He has deduced that the info about the 'wrong' Michael Cohen (Trump lawyer) being included in the dossier could only have resulted from an illegal 702 Query. He ties in all the activities and how this came about. Good read.

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The dossier claims that Cohen met with Russian operatives somewhere in Europe, including Prague, to attend a meeting to "clean up the mess" created by public disclosures of other Trump associates' reported ties to Russia.

So we now know that Cohen was a complete fabrication but that didn't stop Steele from making the ridiculous claim above. What else was created from whole cloth based on other illegal 702 queries?

Quote:

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Good piece of sleuthing by TCTH. He has deduced that the info about the 'wrong' Michael Cohen (Trump lawyer) being included in the dossier could only have resulted from an illegal 702 Query. He ties in all the activities and how this came about. Good read.

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Confess I was very skeptical that Fusion, GPS would have been one of the outside contractors allowed to access raw intelligence, primarily because I couldn't see how a political oppo research firm could provide any helpful "analytical work" to the agencies.

The timing laid out in that article has caused me to reassess.

Always believed Steele was the cover man used to give more credibility as an "intelligence product" to what was essentially oppo research. And the goal of oppo research is to create the most damning inference possible from ambiguous facts. Of course when even the facts are not just ambiguous but flat out wrong the implication falls apart. (Such as the wrong Michael Cohen being identified by Steele.)

And at that point, Bruce and Nellie Ohr begin to get very nervous about their roles. Bruce attempts to do some damage control with his superiors.

One last thing: Schiff repeatedly made the point in his memo that the original Russia investigation was conducted by a very close group of people. Seemed odd to me that he felt it was such an important point. But maybe he inadvertently corroborated a part of TCTH article with such an assertion. Throw in the Susan Rice email to self and wider than necessary circulation of PDBs and that places Obama in the loop of the small group.

Once this can be placed in the Oval Office, all bets are off.

drcrinum said:

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Ratcliffe is very impressive IMO. He is non-confrontational and speaks with the voice of reason. A good watch -- 6 minutes.

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You see the left go after Nunes for all sorts of garbage personal attacks, you don't ever see them treat Ratcliffe in that manor. He's seen the evidense, he's seen the FISA warrant and the application. He 's a former standout federal prosecutor that dealt with the FISA court many times throughout his career. I dare them to go after his credentials.

Thanks for posting that link. A very good read.

I'm going to put my tin foil hat on for a second and openly wonder how much security detail does Horowitz have currently?

We know the OIG report is likely to result in multiple indictments (at least I hope so). We also know Horowitz has been compiling the evidence and data for over a year now. We know the Clintons MO dating back to their days in Arkansas.

Should we be concerned with the IG's health?

True.

One thing I noticed in the Schiff memo is how the Dems admitted the "look back" ability of the Page Title I FISA warrant. Except that the FBI apparently did the "look back" before they got the warrant if references to Page's activities with the Trump campaign in 2016 were made in the original application filed in late October 2016. It may be that the authors conflated renewal applications with the original one and that such conflation was deliberate.

The assertion that the FBI didn't have access to the Steele dossier until September is absurd on its face.

Further, emphasizing that the FBI relied on Steele's credibility instead of his sources' credibility raises the question if Steele ever even identified his sources to the FBI?? Or did they not even bother because they already knew the source of Steele's information was Fusion, who got it from the feds in the first place.

The word "circular" should never appear next to the words "sourcing" nor "firing squad."

Here is a paragraph from the Schiff Memo that especially catches my eye:
(Page 5, under: DOJ was transparent with Court about Steele's sourcing:)

Quote:

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...In an extensive explanation to the Court, DOJ discloses that Steele

"was approached by an identified U.S. Person, who indicated to Source #1 [Steele] that a U.S.-based law firm had hired the identified U.S. Person to conduct research regarding Candidate #1's ties to Russia. (The identified U.S. Person and Source #1 have a long-standing business relationship.) The identified U.S. Person hired Source #1 to conduct this research. The identified U.S. person never advised Source #1 as to the motivation behind the research into Candidate #1's ties to Russia. The FBI speculates that the identified U.S. Person was likely looking for information that could be used to discredit Candidate #1's campaign."

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(via footnotes)
U.S. Person = Simpson
Source #1 = Steele
U.S.-based law firm = Perkins Coie LLP
Candidate #1 = Donald Trump


In my younger days, when a person told a tall tale that was so over-the-hill-unbelievable, it was called a 'whopper'. Well, there are 2 flat out 'whoppers' in this paragraph.

1. Simpson never told Steele the "motivation behind the research into Candidates #1 ties to Russia." Hah! They were friends & business associates! This was the same Steele who was quoted by Ohr as saying he "was desperate that Donald Trump not get elected and was passionate about him not being president." And Steele didn't know that Perkins Coie (Marc Elias) & the DNC were paying for the research? Double 'Hah!'

2. The FBI "speculates" that Simpson was "likely" looking for information to discredit Trump. The FBI didn't know Steele was employed by Fusion GPS via Perkins Coie & the DNC, not to mention that Nellie Ohr worked for Fusion GPS? Triple 'Hah!'

Thank you Adam Schiff for revealing this paragraph. By posting it for public scrutiny, it means that you, a former prosecutor, approve of such tactics in a court room. Seems that a few other government attorneys approved it as well: Comey, McCabe, Lynch, Yates, Rosenstein...

aggiehawg said:

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The goal with the wording of the footnote was to mislead the FISC into thinking it came from a GOP opponent of Trump's instead of Hillary. Still covering for Hillary even in a top secret FISA warrant that presumably would never see the light of day.

Even more curious.

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Good point. I never thought of it that way...the Never Trumpers.

aggiehawg said:

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Quote:

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Good piece of sleuthing by TCTH. He has deduced that the info about the 'wrong' Michael Cohen (Trump lawyer) being included in the dossier could only have resulted from an illegal 702 Query. He ties in all the activities and how this came about. Good read.

---

Confess I was very skeptical that Fusion, GPS would have been one of the outside contractors allowed to access raw intelligence, primarily because I couldn't see how a political oppo research firm could provide any helpful "analytical work" to the agencies.

The timing laid out in that article has caused me to reassess.

Always believed Steele was the cover man used to give more credibility as an "intelligence product" to what was essentially oppo research. And the goal of oppo research is to create the most damning inference possible from ambiguous facts. Of course when even the facts are not just ambiguous but flat out wrong the implication falls apart. (Such as the wrong Michael Cohen being identified by Steele.)

And at that point, Bruce and Nellie Ohr begin to get very nervous about their roles. Bruce attempts to do some damage control with his superiors.

One last thing: Schiff repeatedly made the point in his memo that the original Russia investigation was conducted by a very close group of people. Seemed odd to me that he felt it was such an important point. But maybe he inadvertently corroborated a part of TCTH article with such an assertion. Throw in the Susan Rice email to self and wider than necessary circulation of PDBs and that places Obama in the loop of the small group.

Once this can be placed in the Oval Office, all bets are off.

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"Bruce and Nellie Ohr"

I think she was the contractor that was granted special access. I get confused, but there was some contractor that had access to something that was really shocking and never should have happened. Maybe someone can help me out here.

Sounds right, can't remember if she worked for Fusion GPS or Perkins.... but she spoke fluent Russian.

FriscoKid said:

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aggiehawg said:

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Quote:

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Good piece of sleuthing by TCTH. He has deduced that the info about the 'wrong' Michael Cohen (Trump lawyer) being included in the dossier could only have resulted from an illegal 702 Query. He ties in all the activities and how this came about. Good read.

---

Confess I was very skeptical that Fusion, GPS would have been one of the outside contractors allowed to access raw intelligence, primarily because I couldn't see how a political oppo research firm could provide any helpful "analytical work" to the agencies.

The timing laid out in that article has caused me to reassess.

Always believed Steele was the cover man used to give more credibility as an "intelligence product" to what was essentially oppo research. And the goal of oppo research is to create the most damning inference possible from ambiguous facts. Of course when even the facts are not just ambiguous but flat out wrong the implication falls apart. (Such as the wrong Michael Cohen being identified by Steele.)

And at that point, Bruce and Nellie Ohr begin to get very nervous about their roles. Bruce attempts to do some damage control with his superiors.

One last thing: Schiff repeatedly made the point in his memo that the original Russia investigation was conducted by a very close group of people. Seemed odd to me that he felt it was such an important point. But maybe he inadvertently corroborated a part of TCTH article with such an assertion. Throw in the Susan Rice email to self and wider than necessary circulation of PDBs and that places Obama in the loop of the small group.

Once this can be placed in the Oval Office, all bets are off.

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"Bruce and Nellie Ohr"

I think she was the contractor that was granted special access. I get confused, but there was some contractor that had access to something that was really shocking and never should have happened. Maybe someone can help me out here.

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Nellie worked for Simpson at GPS Fusion. And another contractor speculated as perhaps involved as a 3rd party contractor is CroudStrike (company called in to do investigation of DNC hacking).

FriscoKid said:

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aggiehawg said:

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"Bruce and Nellie Ohr"

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I think she was the contractor that was granted special access. I get confused, but there was some contractor that had access to something that was really shocking and never should have happened. Maybe someone can help me out here.

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The 99 page FISA Court document revealed that private contractors were being permitted to conduct 702 queries at the FBI HQ until Admiral Rogers shut it down in April 2016. It has been speculated that Fusion GPS & CrowdStrike were two such contractors. Also, it has been speculated that Nellie Ohr continued to conduct 702 queries via her husband, operating out of the DOJ-DNI office that was excluded from OIG overview by Sally Yates in 2015.

http://www.wnd.com/2018/02/super-secret-spy-court-raises-alarm-over-feds-snooping/

Decent article on the FISA Court.

Andy McCarthy deconstructs the Schiff memo HERE.

Good read, although he gets into the weeds a bit. Like me, he finds the fact that the renewal applications went to different FISA court judges curious.

Quote:

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In criminal surveillance orders, for example, it is common for prosecutors to bring renewal applications back to the same judge who authorized the original surveillance. That judge presumably knows the case better and is thus in a superior position to detect any irregularities. If FISA surveillance works differently, that would be another reason for critics to fear that the court is merely a rubber stamp. (For what it's worth, I don't share the view that the FISA court merely rubber-stamps applications. The process is a give-and-take one, and though the FISA court rarely rejects warrants, the DOJ does modify many warrants in response to the court's concerns. Moreover, since surveillance of foreign threats to the U.S. is an executive responsibility, the court should approve them unless it appears that the FBI and the DOJ are abusing the process.)

In any event, the issue here is failure to disclose information to the court. If a judge was not made aware of material facts, the judge's authorization of a warrant does not validate the derelict application. (That said, it is difficult to understand why judges would not be troubled by the lack of corroboration of Steele's unidentified Russian hearsay informants.)

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aggiehawg said:

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Andy McCarthy deconstructs the Schiff memo HERE.

Good read, although he gets into the weeds a bit. Like me, he finds the fact that the renewal applications went to different FISA court judges curious.

Quote:

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In criminal surveillance orders, for example, it is common for prosecutors to bring renewal applications back to the same judge who authorized the original surveillance. That judge presumably knows the case better and is thus in a superior position to detect any irregularities. If FISA surveillance works differently, that would be another reason for critics to fear that the court is merely a rubber stamp. (For what it's worth, I don't share the view that the FISA court merely rubber-stamps applications. The process is a give-and-take one, and though the FISA court rarely rejects warrants, the DOJ does modify many warrants in response to the court's concerns. Moreover, since surveillance of foreign threats to the U.S. is an executive responsibility, the court should approve them unless it appears that the FBI and the DOJ are abusing the process.)

In any event, the issue here is failure to disclose information to the court. If a judge was not made aware of material facts, the judge's authorization of a warrant does not validate the derelict application. (That said, it is difficult to understand why judges would not be troubled by the lack of corroboration of Steele's unidentified Russian hearsay informants.)

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Just finished reading it and was coming here to post it. I think you were being generous in using the descriptive term "deconstructs"...I was going to say "totally destroys". Sara Carter's comment matches McCarthy's conclusion:

Quote:

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Conclusion

In sum, the Schiff memo does more to harm than to advance the Democrats' defense of the Obama administration and the use of the FISA process by the FBI and the DOJ.

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Anyway, I highly recommend that followers of this thread read the entire article.

drcrinum said:

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aggiehawg said:

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Andy McCarthy deconstructs the Schiff memo HERE.

Good read, although he gets into the weeds a bit. Like me, he finds the fact that the renewal applications went to different FISA court judges curious.

Quote:

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In criminal surveillance orders, for example, it is common for prosecutors to bring renewal applications back to the same judge who authorized the original surveillance. That judge presumably knows the case better and is thus in a superior position to detect any irregularities. If FISA surveillance works differently, that would be another reason for critics to fear that the court is merely a rubber stamp. (For what it's worth, I don't share the view that the FISA court merely rubber-stamps applications. The process is a give-and-take one, and though the FISA court rarely rejects warrants, the DOJ does modify many warrants in response to the court's concerns. Moreover, since surveillance of foreign threats to the U.S. is an executive responsibility, the court should approve them unless it appears that the FBI and the DOJ are abusing the process.)

In any event, the issue here is failure to disclose information to the court. If a judge was not made aware of material facts, the judge's authorization of a warrant does not validate the derelict application. (That said, it is difficult to understand why judges would not be troubled by the lack of corroboration of Steele's unidentified Russian hearsay informants.)

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Just finished reading it and was coming here to post it. I think you were being generous in using the descriptive term "deconstructs"...I was going to say "totally destroys". Sara Carter's comment matches McCarthy's conclusion:

Quote:

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Conclusion

In sum, the Schiff memo does more to harm than to advance the Democrats' defense of the Obama administration and the use of the FISA process by the FBI and the DOJ.

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Anyway, I highly recommend that followers of this thread read the entire article.

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Agree. Trump needs to nominate McCarthy for an Appeals Court spot. Guy is nails.

jjeffers1 said:

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drcrinum said:

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aggiehawg said:

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Agree. Trump needs to nominate McCarthy for an Appeals Court spot. Guy is nails.

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I've said before that I believe Andrew McCarthy should be appointed SC to go after Hillary's e-mails & the Clinton Foundation.

Another item that McCarthy discusses that caught my eye was this whole "masking" versus "unmasking" in the footnote describing the origins of the Steele dossier.

I understand using "US Person #1", "US Based Law Firm" and the such being used in reports on NSA metadata before a request for unmasking under a 702 query.

But I fail to see the necessity, nor even the wisdom, of hiding identities in a super secret Title I FISA application. Our legal system is an adversarial one, except for the FISA courts. The judge is being asked to completely abrogate a US citizen's Fourth Amendment rights, for heaven's sake. That judge is forced to rely on the FBI and DOJ to present complete transparency, more disclosure of the sources of the information being used to justify such an intrusion, not less.

Further, the FBI and the DOJ didn't get the information about the origins of the Steele dossier from a 702 query, Steele presented it himself. Who was paying him and the like. Why not name Glenn Simpson, Perkins Coie, Trump, the DNC and Hillary for America? Why omit that from the judge? None of them were intelligence assets whose life would be endangered from being named in a top secret FISA warrant.

If such concealment of the sources identities is routine in Title I FISA applications, that needs to be revisited, in my view.

Well I wonder if that will ever be answered.

GCP12 said:

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Because they knew Trump wasn't "colluding" with Russia. They only wanted to spy on his campaign for political reasons. IF they believed Trump was colluding with Russia, Page would have been one of the first people they would interview about it.

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Exactly....to me it's the heart of the issue. If Page was or is a Russian spy he would be incarcerated...PERIOD!

This should be shouted from roof tops but somehow at best it might be a good point raised on Fox News but never further pursued.

friscodick said:

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GCP12 said:

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Because they knew Trump wasn't "colluding" with Russia. They only wanted to spy on his campaign for political reasons. IF they believed Trump was colluding with Russia, Page would have been one of the first people they would interview about it.

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Exactly....to me it's the heart of the issue. If Page was or is a Russian spy he would be incarcerated...PERIOD!

This should be shouted from roof tops but somehow at best it might be a good point raised on Fox News but never further pursued.

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They had a previous relationship with him. He has worked for the FBI and CIA previously. If they truly believed Trump was colluding with Russia, it wouldn't have been difficult to reach out to Page. Hell, he offered to talk to them in a letter to Comey FFS.

Quote:

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So . . . here's the question: When Steele brought the FBI his unverified allegations that Page had met with Sechin and Divyekin, why didn't the FBI call Page in for an interview rather than subject him to FISA surveillance? Lest you wonder, this is not an instance of me second-guessing the Bureau with an investigative plan I think would have been better. It is a requirement of FISA law.

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This is a huge BOOM!