drcrinum said:

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This is becoming wild.

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I'm not hoping Manafort skates. By just about all accounts, he's a snake.

It would be a massive defeat for Team Swamp.

So what, exactly, is your desired outcome?

the note reads to me like they can't reach consensus on any of them.

Jake Gibson has been in the Court Room every day of the trial. A very reliable source. He is on his fathers talk show almost every day.

Desired outcome failure!

Manafort's a snake no doubt, as is the prosecution.

BearJew13 said:

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So what, exactly, is your desired outcome?

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I don't really have one. If they return a guilty verdict, a tax cheat will go to jail.

If it is hung or he actually walks, Team Swamp will have massive egg on its face and I will delight in the digital squeals of leftists that will fill the social media space in the days that follow.

Wildcat said:

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I'm not hoping Manafort skates. By just about all accounts, he's a snake.

It would be a massive defeat for Team Swamp.

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What if I told you
Both teams are team swamp

BMX Bandit said:

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the note reads to me like they can't reach consensus on any of them.

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That's certainly one interpretation. Lawyers view language differently than jurors. I have seen many an inartful question from juries that seem to ask one thing only to later discover they were so confused they asked the wrong question.

In the instant case, I think what they really wanted to ask was, "how do we fill out this damn verdict form?"

BearJew13 said:

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So what, exactly, is your desired outcome?

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The problem is that when you rely on an outcome, you're likely to be disappointed.

I've said all along that if the Mueller crew had nothing to do with this and it was handled soup to nuts by the U.S. Attorney's office for the E.D. Va., the case would have been a non-event across the board. Probably referred to the IRS for investigation and assessment of penalties and then back to E.D. Va. for consideration of prosecution, if seriously warranted.

But the special counsel's office steps in. They've got political motive. And they've got financial motive. They're charging full-freight BigLaw hourly rates to run this prosecution. We're talking associates billed at $400-800/hour and partners from $750 - (god knows what; highest number I've seen recently is $1,795/hour). So by overcharging this thing as much as they can, they can not only get a political "win" but they can get fat off of this case. They don't really have to uphold some oath like the AUSAs do that says, "justice be done."

So the desired outcome is just what it appears may be happening: making the special counsel look like a stupid waste of time and money.

blindey said:

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BearJew13 said:

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So what, exactly, is your desired outcome?

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The problem is that when you rely on an outcome, you're likely to be disappointed.

I've said all along that if the Mueller crew had nothing to do with this and it was handled soup to nuts by the U.S. Attorney's office for the E.D. Va., the case would have been a non-event across the board. Probably referred to the IRS for investigation and assessment of penalties and then back to E.D. Va. for consideration of prosecution, if seriously warranted.

But the special counsel's office steps in. They've got political motive. And they've got financial motive. They're charging full-freight BigLaw hourly rates to run this prosecution. We're talking associates billed at $400-800/hour and partners from $750 - (god knows what; highest number I've seen recently is $1,795/hour). So by overcharging this thing as much as they can, they can not only get a political "win" but they can get fat off of this case. They don't really have to uphold some oath like the AUSAs do that says, "justice be done."

So the desired outcome is just what it appears may be happening: making the special counsel look like a stupid waste of time and money.

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Well said.

One other thing we discussed several days ago regarding the attempted bank fraud where Manafort didn't obtain the loan. Ellis expressed his displeasure about wasting 40 minutes with a witness on an inchoate crime. That wasn't just Ellis being testy with the prosecution, Ellis thought that such evidence would needlessly confuse the jury and he was likely correct.

Jurors look at that as a no-harm-no-foul type of situation. He didn't get the loan so how was the bank defrauded?? They overlook the "conspiracy to commit" (bank fraud) part.

Further the testimony that many of the loans were still performing also weakened the prosecution's case as that just raises further doubts in the jurors' minds.

They are confused. Massively so.

I agree completely. I just know many on here who have been paying attention are mixed in how they'd like this all to turn out. Just curious what people's exact feelings are.

blindey said:

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BearJew13 said:

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So what, exactly, is your desired outcome?

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The problem is that when you rely on an outcome, you're likely to be disappointed.

I've said all along that if the Mueller crew had nothing to do with this and it was handled soup to nuts by the U.S. Attorney's office for the E.D. Va., the case would have been a non-event across the board. Probably referred to the IRS for investigation and assessment of penalties and then back to E.D. Va. for consideration of prosecution, if seriously warranted.

But the special counsel's office steps in. They've got political motive. And they've got financial motive. They're charging full-freight BigLaw hourly rates to run this prosecution. We're talking associates billed at $400-800/hour and partners from $750 - (god knows what; highest number I've seen recently is $1,795/hour). So by overcharging this thing as much as they can, they can not only get a political "win" but they can get fat off of this case. They don't really have to uphold some oath like the AUSAs do that says, "justice be done."

So the desired outcome is just what it appears may be happening: making the special counsel look like a stupid waste of time and money.

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But I don't think that's accurate. I could be wrong but I'm pretty sure all of the attorneys are employees of the SCO on salary and are not charging billable rates from their prior firm (I believe it is also true for DOJ attorneys who have been transferred to the SCO). I haven't seen anywhere that they are charging the government billable rates, and the typical process is these attorneys have left their firms and are now employees who work for the SCO.

The word "any" had been crossed out before the word "single".

UncleNateFitch said:

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Wildcat said:

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I'm not hoping Manafort skates. By just about all accounts, he's a snake.

It would be a massive defeat for Team Swamp.

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What if I told you
Both teams are team swamp

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You would get no argument.

MASAXET said:

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blindey said:

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BearJew13 said:

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So what, exactly, is your desired outcome?

---

The problem is that when you rely on an outcome, you're likely to be disappointed.

I've said all along that if the Mueller crew had nothing to do with this and it was handled soup to nuts by the U.S. Attorney's office for the E.D. Va., the case would have been a non-event across the board. Probably referred to the IRS for investigation and assessment of penalties and then back to E.D. Va. for consideration of prosecution, if seriously warranted.

But the special counsel's office steps in. They've got political motive. And they've got financial motive. They're charging full-freight BigLaw hourly rates to run this prosecution. We're talking associates billed at $400-800/hour and partners from $750 - (god knows what; highest number I've seen recently is $1,795/hour). So by overcharging this thing as much as they can, they can not only get a political "win" but they can get fat off of this case. They don't really have to uphold some oath like the AUSAs do that says, "justice be done."

So the desired outcome is just what it appears may be happening: making the special counsel look like a stupid waste of time and money.

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But I don't think that's accurate. I could be wrong but I'm pretty sure all of the attorneys are employees of the SCO on salary and are not charging billable rates from their prior firm (I believe it is also true for DOJ attorneys who have been transferred to the SCO). I haven't seen anywhere that they are charging the government billable rates, and the typical process is these attorneys have left their firms and are now employees who work for the SCO.

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I tend to agree with you that they are not billing their typical hourly rates, HOWEVER Rosenstein holds the purse strings and is not exactly shouting from the rooftops how much money is being spent and for what.

Point being we really don't know how all of this has been structured as of yet.

aggiehawg said:

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MASAXET said:

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blindey said:

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BearJew13 said:

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So what, exactly, is your desired outcome?

---

The problem is that when you rely on an outcome, you're likely to be disappointed.

I've said all along that if the Mueller crew had nothing to do with this and it was handled soup to nuts by the U.S. Attorney's office for the E.D. Va., the case would have been a non-event across the board. Probably referred to the IRS for investigation and assessment of penalties and then back to E.D. Va. for consideration of prosecution, if seriously warranted.

But the special counsel's office steps in. They've got political motive. And they've got financial motive. They're charging full-freight BigLaw hourly rates to run this prosecution. We're talking associates billed at $400-800/hour and partners from $750 - (god knows what; highest number I've seen recently is $1,795/hour). So by overcharging this thing as much as they can, they can not only get a political "win" but they can get fat off of this case. They don't really have to uphold some oath like the AUSAs do that says, "justice be done."

So the desired outcome is just what it appears may be happening: making the special counsel look like a stupid waste of time and money.

---

But I don't think that's accurate. I could be wrong but I'm pretty sure all of the attorneys are employees of the SCO on salary and are not charging billable rates from their prior firm (I believe it is also true for DOJ attorneys who have been transferred to the SCO). I haven't seen anywhere that they are charging the government billable rates, and the typical process is these attorneys have left their firms and are now employees who work for the SCO.

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I tend to agree with you that they are not billing their typical hourly rates, HOWEVER Rosenstein holds the purse strings and is not exactly shouting from the rooftops how much money is being spent and for what.

Point being we really don't know how all of this has been structured as of yet.

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That may all be true (I haven't paid attention), but that's a far cry from saying that these attorneys are charging their billable rates. I can almost guarantee that's not the case. I know for sure at least Mueller and a couple of other SCO attorneys left WilmerHale

aggiehawg said:

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MASAXET said:

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blindey said:

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BearJew13 said:

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So what, exactly, is your desired outcome?

---

The problem is that when you rely on an outcome, you're likely to be disappointed.

I've said all along that if the Mueller crew had nothing to do with this and it was handled soup to nuts by the U.S. Attorney's office for the E.D. Va., the case would have been a non-event across the board. Probably referred to the IRS for investigation and assessment of penalties and then back to E.D. Va. for consideration of prosecution, if seriously warranted.

But the special counsel's office steps in. They've got political motive. And they've got financial motive. They're charging full-freight BigLaw hourly rates to run this prosecution. We're talking associates billed at $400-800/hour and partners from $750 - (god knows what; highest number I've seen recently is $1,795/hour). So by overcharging this thing as much as they can, they can not only get a political "win" but they can get fat off of this case. They don't really have to uphold some oath like the AUSAs do that says, "justice be done."

So the desired outcome is just what it appears may be happening: making the special counsel look like a stupid waste of time and money.

---

But I don't think that's accurate. I could be wrong but I'm pretty sure all of the attorneys are employees of the SCO on salary and are not charging billable rates from their prior firm (I believe it is also true for DOJ attorneys who have been transferred to the SCO). I haven't seen anywhere that they are charging the government billable rates, and the typical process is these attorneys have left their firms and are now employees who work for the SCO.

---

I tend to agree with you that they are not billing their typical hourly rates, HOWEVER Rosenstein holds the purse strings and is not exactly shouting from the rooftops how much money is being spent and for what.

Point being we really don't know how all of this has been structured as of yet.

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They gave that cost update at 120 days and it was close to 3.2 million a while back, so I don't know what their normal rates are, but they aren't cheap now.

https://www.justice.gov/file/1015746/download

Just looked and the SCO website publishes its expenditures and is relatively detailed. Looks like the attorneys are salaried employees and not contracted from their firms.

https://www.justice.gov/jmd/page/file/1067411/download

ETA - links for all statements of expenditures: https://www.justice.gov/sco/statements-expenditures

I think it's fair to say that the attorneys in the SCO (at least from private practice) are certainly not getting a huge financial windfall directly from their work with the SCO.

This is about making a name or reputation or punching a punchcard for elevated political status in DC, not about the money for these lawyers. They want face time, name mentions, and peer recognition.

Winner winner chicken dinner!

Well, we do know who is being charged billable rates. The defendants in all of the cases.

This, in my opinion is the "unspoken" charter of the investigation. If anyone can be bankrupted by joining an "outsiders" campaign, then people are gonna think twice about it.

MASAXET said:

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Just looked and the SCO website publishes its expenditures and is relatively detailed. Looks like the attorneys are salaried employees and not contracted from their firms.

https://www.justice.gov/jmd/page/file/1067411/download

ETA - links for all statements of expenditures: https://www.justice.gov/sco/statements-expenditures

I think it's fair to say that the attorneys in the SCO (at least from private practice) are certainly not getting a huge financial windfall directly from their work with the SCO.

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You don't know what those like Steyer and Soros are paying off book.

drcrinum said:

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The word "any" had been crossed out before the word "single".

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We cannot come to consensus on a single any charge.

current vote tally:
11 "not guilty" all charges
1 "guilty" all charges...

This holdout only agrees to all charges "guilty", We cannot come to consensus on single any charge of "not guilty"

MouthBQ98 said:

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This is about making a name or reputation or punching a punchcard for elevated political status in DC, not about the money for these lawyers. They want face time, name mentions, and peer recognition.

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I would bet most of those on Mueller's team were already set as far as financial means goes. This is a big point for many of them, imo.

It's not unspoken, it's the primary reason. Punish outsiders from the swamp and political class and all those who support them.

What do you think the next billionaire's friends and business associates will be telling the next non-Politico billionaire if he tells them he thinks he wants to run for president?

Jury sent another note to Ellis. Waiting for counsel to assemble to find out if they have a verdict or another question.

akm91 said:

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MouthBQ98 said:

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This is about making a name or reputation or punching a punchcard for elevated political status in DC, not about the money for these lawyers. They want face time, name mentions, and peer recognition.

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I would bet most of those on Mueller's team were already set as far as financial means goes. This is a big point for many of them, imo.

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Probably so. . Maybe so.

I believe the entire Mueller team is under close scrutiny for any abuse of power and/or ethical violations. Whatever they do is being closely monitored. It is very obvious the team is a political hit team. Arkancide by trial.

It appears to be a very, very stupid strategy. We will see how it plays out. I suspect it is going to make the cartel wars of Mexico look like child's games. If anyone believes this is going to end with Cohen and Manafort and Flynn, I've got some swamp land in Arizona for you.

Just think about this. There have been 25+ people from the FBI/DOJ that have been fired, resigned, demoted because of their actions. That is very, very scary. Those 2 organizations were corrupt at the top. I'm afraid that is the tip of the iceberg.

Their redoubled efforts to justify themselves and play to the leftist base comes across to everyone else as validating the assertions that an institution-based bureaucratic deep state does in fact exist in some form or other. They are losing the war trying to win battles.

aggiehawg said:

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Jury sent another note to Ellis. Waiting for counsel to assemble to find out if they have a verdict or another question.

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A second note? What is it?

Verdict reached on 8 counts - no consensus on 10.

FriscoKid said:

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aggiehawg said:

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Jury sent another note to Ellis. Waiting for counsel to assemble to find out if they have a verdict or another question.

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A second note? What is it?

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Doocy says verdict in eight counts, hung on remaining ten.

aggiehawg said:

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FriscoKid said:

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aggiehawg said:

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Jury sent another note to Ellis. Waiting for counsel to assemble to find out if they have a verdict or another question.

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A second note? What is it?

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Doocy says verdict in eight counts, hung on remaining ten.

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The correct answer whas "It's a piece of paper with writing on it. But, that's not important right now."