........."Although presenting itself as a spiritual and often even a Christian organization, there is no required belief in Jesus, and God is not seen as personal. There is no Trinity. It is indifferent to the notion of fallen man and redemption.

Instead God is seen as the Supreme Architect -- the all-seeing eye that is on the American dollar bill (no surprise in that 17 U.S. presidents have been Masons). In their rituals, Masons incorporate agnosticism, pantheism (the belief in many gods), nature religions, and animism (the African occult religion).

"Through the repeated use of oral prayers, which are offered in an atmosphere of oath-bound secrecy, Christian Masons are conditioned to view God according to the Masonic worldview," says Salza, who has broken the oath because he swore to it under what he has judged to be false pretenses.

The initiation includes a ritual wherein "all jewelry, including wedding ring, Crucifix, Scapular, and other sacramentals" are removed.

The candidate is then blindfolded, and a noose placed around his neck, reveals the author. The candidate is stripped down to his underwear and, says Salza, "is virtually helpless.
Nearly naked, divested of all jewelry and sacramentals, he has been blindfolded and secured by a rope around his neck. In this state of vulnerability, the candidate is properly prepared to receive the solemn truths of Freemasonry.

"Now the candidate is led to the Inner Door (the entrance used by lodge initiates), on which he is to knock three times. The Senior Deacon then opens the door and asks, 'Who comes here?'"

In Masonry, the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are equal to Brashma, Vishnu, and Shiva.

It borrows from many religions, including the world's three great religions. The Bible is placed on the altar, and passages from the New Testament are woven into the rituals (though Christ is omitted). Some lodges are even dedicated, says Salza, to St. John the Baptist and St. John the Evangelist, who are claimed as "eminent Christian patrons of Masonry."

Texasag

You are starting to sound like of those nutty 9/11 conspiracy kooks..

So were the Masons responsible for 9/11 as well?

I'm a master mason and a Christian and I don't understand where the conflict is.

Plus, the quotes above from the book are not all true.

[This message has been edited by turtle95 (edited 9/20/2006 3:10a).]

I do not believe the Masons were responsible for 9/11, but I did hear one theory that they were responsible for the French Revolution.

I have no idea whether the quotes are true or not. I do know that I'm not stripping down to my underwear and having a rope put around my neck to be initiated into anything.

Don't believe everything you read. I didn't strip and I didn't have a rope around my neck. Be careful, this guy is out to sell his book.

don't piss off Brashma

turtle - Are there different ceremonies for different levels ?

Yes, three different ones.

Three to become a master mason and then there are more to go into the Scottish Rite (shriners) or York Rite.

Don't believe the hype. My father-in-law is a high level Mason and if I've ever known a finer, more devoted Christian I don't know who it could be.

I don't doubt that over how ever many centuries groups within some lodges may have gone to the dark side of the Force. But not all that many.

texasag73

We have had this discussion before....and I thought we resolved it.

Anyway, this book is nothing new. There have been many "Former" Masons who have written pretty much the same book (revealing the secrets, if you will).

Not everything he says is true, and he seems to change words in his book to make it sound more "anti-christian."

Dan Brown wrote what he did about Christianity in order to sell books, not to spread the word about being a Christian. This guy is doing the same thing. He is out to sell books, and not out to spread Christianity or Masonry. In fact, he is "whoring" out both in order to make some money.

He is selling the book (which is mostly false) to Christians (and others) who want info on Masonry. He is trying to sell it as "Hard Facts" just like Dan Brown did.

It would be like me writing a book on what A&M was like, but doing so in a way that fit the stereo-types that the t-sips put on us. This book, although mostly false, would probably sell very well in Austin to all those wanting to know more about A&M, or to use it against A&M.

Finally, texasag73, if you have any questions on Masonry...just shoot me a PM and I will give you my contact info. We can talk via email or phone if you would like. I have enjoyed our discussions in the past and have no "beef" with you, but I do like to help people understand my fraternity.

I can better describe the parts of this book that are false, or incorrect, if you would like...but think it might be easier on the phone or by email.

Later....

All masons have the same tired excuse are are so misunderstood. 2b1ask1

Most can't even lay bricks!

Masonry:

The only thing more dull and meaningless than Masonry is people who get worked up with anti-Mason conspiracy theories.

Aggie 99 - Why the secrets?

Why is your top meeting hall a "temple"?

Why do they call it Alzafar "Shrine"?

Arent' those religious terms?

Are the Masons religious at all, or is it like the Lion's club/Chamber of Commerce?

Ok, so I just typed a long answer and when I hit submit, it asked for my password and my post was gone...ahhh.

Here are my cliff notes.

1. "Top Meeting Place" - We dont have a "Top Meeting Place." If you belong to a local lodge, you meet in a lodge. If you decide to join the Scottish Rite, then yes...most Scottish Rite buildings are called temples.

But no, this is not a religious term in that a lot of people also call Kyle Field a Temple.

2. Secrets - Like the secret hand shake? If you are looking for more secrets, you may be dissapointed. Just like a Greek Frat on Campus has "secrets" which are really handshakes or passwords, or maybe even the initiation. Thats about it really.

3. Shrine - The Shrine is the Charity group of the Masons. If you like raising money for charity and doing charity work, you join the shrine. Back when they started the group, they thought it would be cool to make it Egyptian Themed (with Fezs, etc.). Just like a college frat using Greek letters (when they are not really greek). Its a theme...you gotta pick something. Kind of like having a mascot I guess.

4. Religious Terms - I dont know if the term "shrine" or "temple" are only for religious use. Are they only used in Religion and masonry?

5. Are the masons religious? - Well I cant speak for everyone, but I am a Mason and I am religious as well. But, the organization as a whole is not. That is like asking is A&M Religious? Well....no, and yes. Most of our students claim a faith but you are not going to get kicked out of school for being Catholic or Jewish.

Now, I will say that you must not be an Atheist if you want to be a Mason. (The same goes for the Boy Scouts as well).

The reason for this is that we believe your oath/honor will not be worth anything if you dont believe that you someday answer to a higher power.

Its like in Court when you put your hand on a bible. No one can make you not lie in court, but if you swear on the bible first, then at least some day you will have that to deal with (after death) if you do break your oath. (Simple philosophy).

6. Finally, no we are not like the Lions or Chamber. Those are networking organizations that focus on business, etc. The Masons are simply a fraternity. It would be like asking if the Sigma Chi's were like the Lions or Chamber. The answer is no....they are a fraternity. If you understand the concept of a College Greek Frat, then you can understand the masons (just dress it up a bit and make it a little more high class).


Again, if you ever want to PM me, we can talk about this some more (email or phone). I dont know if you live in College Station or not, but if you are and you would ever like a tour of my lodge building, just let me know and I can have that arranged. If that is something that makes you nervous, just remember that 99% of the members there (including myself) are Christians and Aggies, if that helps out at all.

Not trying to convert you or anything, but if you are curious, I am more than willing to show you around. Just like I am sure you would be willing to show someone from another school around Aggieland, or someone from another faith around our Church, just so that they can better understand.






[This message has been edited by Aggie99 (edited 9/23/2006 12:55a).]

Thanks 99 - You defend your organization a LOT better than Bob75 does.

Now, for the final question - Is the way you describe your Masonic lodge the way it has always been in the Masons, or has it morphed into more of a fraternity? On the History Channel there was a special on someone getting bumped off in the 19th Century for spilling the beans about the Lodge...

From all the historical things I have seen, our lodges have remained the same (for the most part) since the beginning. I mean, there may be a few small changes that are extremely minor, but other than that, they are the same.

As far as someone getting "bumped off" (The Morgan Affair), it may have happened, but there are some historians that "debunk" the story as a tactic used to scare the membership to not spill the beans.

If it did happen, it was one lodge acting alone, and no one is ok with it (now or then). It is like a Sigma Chi Chapter at Georgia Killing or Hurting a new pledge and then every Sigma Chi Chapter in the Country feeling the heat for it.

Or, if a Priest in New York does something wrong, and anti-catholics in Houston start applying the same problems to the Catholic Priests in Houston. (Even though they did nothing wrong...)

Hope that helps...

[This message has been edited by Aggie99 (edited 9/23/2006 10:31a).]

quote:

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The reason for this is that we believe your oath/honor will not be worth anything if you dont believe that you someday answer to a higher power.

---

A Christian must not take oaths that deal with anything religious or Spiritual that is NOT of Faith, the only one and true faith.

The entire true realm of the Kingdom is in Christ. So when you make an oath in your group that believes in a "higher power" and call them brother in a spiritual term you are in FACT denying Christ by your common oath.

Christians accept all people, but not all oaths, or all believers in a "higher power" as spiritual brothers. It is false for a Christian to do so, and if you think you can be a Mason (oath taking)and a Christian (oath taking)you've merely fooled yourself by your "goodness".

Bottom line is that all oaths are exclusive to Christ alone. If the spiritual membership calls for a belief in God, it better be exclusive to Christ.

Please spare me the Mason evangelizing for Jesus senario.

AgGermany,

I think you may have missed the point (or maybe I didnt explain it very well). Either way, I cant help but take a little offense to you post, as it felt like an attack. (I will assume that is not the case).

As Masons, we dont care who you take your Oath too. BUT, this does not mean that I, as a Christian and a Mason, have to believe in your God as well as mine.

The point of saying that one must believe in a higher power in order to become a Mason is because that is what makes his oath binding to himself.

For example, I may believe that God is an Pig or Buddah or whatever. BUT, it is the fact that I believe in a God that will make me do the right thing (vs. someone who doesnt believe there is any consequence for their actions on earth). It is not a point of whether or not I share another mans beliefs...it is simply whether or not I know that he will do his best to live up to his oath under any and all penalties he believes that his God will put on him later on.

Does that make sense at all? Or did I still not explain myself.??

quote:

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A Christian must not take oaths that deal with anything religious or Spiritual that is NOT of Faith, the only one and true faith.

---

As for this quote, I am not sure you understand. We are not taking any oaths dealing with religious assumptions or dealings.

It is really not a lot different than the president being sworn in (under oath) or taking an oath to tell the truth in a court of law.

Both of those situations use the Bible (as do we in our Masonic Lodge).

Does this help!???

The Boy Scouts take an oath and there’s a reason atheist can’t be Scouts. Within the Boy Scouts there is an organization called the Order of the Arrow.

They have secret passwords, handshakes and ceremonies. The ceremonies have tests (like passing your hand through a fire & passing a heavy rock.) The purposes of these oaths serve the same purpose as the ones in Masonry. The basic idea is that you are obligating yourself to be a good person, citizen, etc. and you are doing so under the eye of your God.

Are they in the same boat as Masonry with you?

I'm just curious why some of you seem to get so riled up over the Freemasons. If it was only half as mystical and conspiratorial as some of you think it would be pretty awesome. I’m sorry but it’s just a fraternity.

It seems to be a fraternity today in some lodges. But it was much more than that in the past.

texasag

Why not join a masonic lodge, seems like the best way to find out is to see it for yourself.......

Are the masons responsible for foundation repairs and UFOs?

davi mason wrote some cool songs in the 70's.
Was he demonic?

quote:

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It seems to be a fraternity today in some lodges. But it was much more than that in the past.

---

I dont know what you mean by "much more that that in the past." Can you share with me what you think might have been going on?

I am just curious....

quote:

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It seems to be a fraternity today in some lodges.

---

Which lodges do you know of that are something different? I'm curious because I'd love to go visit them.

I agree with Aggie99's question. What exactly were we in the past?

I'm truly interested in the origin of your distaste and seemingly never ending anger toward Freemasonry. Not because I'm interested in changing your mind or perhaps helping you to see something different (it doesn't seem that's what you’re looking for) but because I'm truly curious what your beef is.

quote:

---

It seems to be a fraternity today in some lodges. But it was much more than that in the past.

---

Lodges of speculative Masons have always been a fraternity. All you have to do is look at the places they were founded and met, i.e. taverns, in the early days. Since then it hasn't changed much other than most lodges now meet in a building dedicated to use by Masons. And yes, ritual has changed; in how it is said, along with some other non-substantive changes; it remains the same fraternity it was 300 years ago with the same goals of taking good men and making them better.

ttt

99 - What does the following snippet from Albert Pike's Masonic writing - "Morals and Dogma", mean?

http://www.illuminati-news.com/e-books/morals-dogma/apike07.htm

In the Beginning was, that is to say, IS, WAS, and WILL BE,
the WORD, that is to say, the REASON that Speaks.
The Word is the reason of belief, and in it also is the expression
of the Faith which makes Science a living thing. The Word,
is the Source of Logic. Jesus is the Word Incarnate. The
accord of the Reason with Faith, of Knowledge with Belief, of
Authority with Liberty, has become in modern times the veritable
enigma of the Sphinx.

Illuminati News... Are you kidding? The main page has sections dedicated to UFO’s & Aliens and mind control!

If you want to learn about Masonry and what we do then you should talk to a Mason. There are several on this board who are willing and who have made offers to talk to you. But you seem more interested in picking and choosing lines and quotes that you feel put the fraternity in a negative light to support your unexplained agenda.

Albert Pike wrote Morals & Dogma over a hundred years ago and is NOT considered by Masonic scholars to be the divinity word on the fraternity but rather ONE MAN’S interpretations and thoughts.

Rather than answer my question about the root of your anger toward Freemasonry you come back with an obscure quote. The fact that you are using this website as a reference makes me wonder what other sites you frequent and support as fact.

What’s your beef with Freemasonry? Why do you go out of your way to attack and judge an organization you have no interest in joining and one that doesn’t affect you?


[This message has been edited by Samsill98 (edited 10/3/2006 2:36a).]

[This message has been edited by Samsill98 (edited 10/3/2006 2:37a).]

Texasag73 – How would you feel about some using this website as a reference to quote and argue your faith? http://www.evilbible.com/ Would you laugh it off or take is seriously? There are a lot of juicy quotes in there that can really rile people up but I can acknowledge that just quoting random scripture, etc. to bolster a position isn’t any way to have an actual conversation about a subject. How is this any different from you using the illuminati news website as a reference?

Can you explain why you seem to have such a personal vendetta with Freemasonry? I’m not interested in changing your mind because from what I’ve read you seem to believe you have all the real facts and know all the real answers so nothing I or any other Mason can explain or discuss with you will matter. I get that so I’m not trying to convert you.

I’m just trying to understand where you derive such anger toward the organization. Can you shed any light on this?

texasag73,

I will first have to check and see if that quote is actually in "Morals and Dogma," as the site listed as a reference is simply not one that I will just assume is quoting accurately.

Regardless, it may be in there, but that is not the point. The point is, as Samsill pointed out, M&D is simply Albert Pike's views and philosophies. They are not the teachings of the Scottish Rite.

So as to what it means exactly?? I guess I would either have to ask Pike himself, read the entire book from front to cover (as to not take anything out of context), or ask some other scholars as to what Pike was trying to say. (Just like I would with the Bible....I can read the whole Bible and do my best, or I can ask a Scholar who has studied the Bible about what certain passages mean.)

I hope that helps.....

aggie99,

Thanks for the above posts. I have been wondering many of the questions answered and discussed above. My dad is a master mason and has been trying to get me involved in masonry.

He has got the petitions prepared but I think I have to join that lodge first before transfering to a lodge where I live now.

I was a DeMolay growing up and was curious about the similiarity between the 2 org's.

CJ-

Just to clarify you don’t have to join your father's lodge first unless you want to. I understand if what you meant was you felt like you had to because he wants you to. Many people join their father’s lodge or the lodge of a relative for the sake of tradition or because they just don’t know the difference. As much as I’m sure joining your fathers lodge would mean a lot to him it’s important that you find the right lodge for you and join that one. If that’s your father’s lodge then great! If not, your father will be just as proud that you have become a Master Mason regardless if it’s in his lodge or not. The most important thing is to find a lodge that fits with your expectations and has people that you get along with and enjoy being around.

Do you live in College Station now? There are several lodges in the BCS area and two specifically in CS. PM me if you are interested in learning about either.