I'm sure this isn't news on this forum, nor to any of its readers, but I thought I'd throw out a thread on it as a point of discussion.

The reformation resulted in five basic principles on which most (if not all) protestant denominations are founded. They are referred to commonly as the five solas, and although you won't typically see them written this way doctrinally, you'll find evidence of them in just about every aspect of the reformed church.

Sola Scriptura
Sola Scriptura means "only scripture". That is to say that everything we need for salvation is contained in the Bible. It doesn't mean that the Bible can tell you which road you should take to work, or what you should have for lunch, but rather how you should order and live your life in order to attain salvation and to walk with God. It is complete - nothing else is needed.

Solo Christo
Solo Christo means "Only Christ". This means that we are saved by Christ's sacrifice for us, and not by anything else. Not by saints, or prophets, or sacrifices, nor by works or good deeds. Without Christ we cannot and never could be saved. Jesus did the whole, entire, complete work needed for us to be saved. Nothing else is needed.

Sola Fide
Sola Fide means "Only faith" or "By faith alone". It means that it is ONLY by faith that we can be saved. We cannot come to salvation without faith, but further, it is ONLY by faith in Christ that we can be saved. This means that there's no way we can do good enough - or enough good - things to warrant our salvation. We can't live a life perfect enough. We are not and never can be worthy of our salvation. It is only in faith that we can be saved.

Sola Gratia
Sola Gratia means "only grace" or "by grace alone". It means that it is only by God's grace that we attain salvation. Not by God's grace AND the church, not by God's grace AND by acts of service, but by God's grace ALONE. God's grace is what forgives a totally unworthy person and justifies his salvation.

Soli Deo Gloria
"To the glory of God Alone" - it means that our purpose for living and being is to glorify God.

What is your point?

http://www.bringyou.to/apologetics/num21.htm

PREDESTINATION, SALVATION, AND DAMNATION

Calvinism and Catholicism Contrasted

Redstone,

Why do you continue to post things like this, even though I have shown you where they state wrong things about Calvinism?

Take this for example:

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Calvin : God's sovereignty determines the will.
Catholic : God's sovereignty includes free will.

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I have shown you again and again where this is simply not true of Calvinism, yet like a man with no conscience, you continue on as if the truth does not matter.

Such dishonesty seems to characterize modern Roman Catholicism, and many of it’s adherents. Bald faced lies are taught as truth. This is why it’s clear to any honest observer that Roman Catholicism today is full of darkness.

I posted that link again because it is a very accurate summary of my Southern Baptist and Calvinist upbringing of 25 years. I am the only Catholic in a family of Reformed / Southern Baptists.

If this is not your experience, good. But to suggest that no Calvinist/Reformed hold these views is false.

And by the way, the page is also the best summary of Catholic doctrine and teaching on these questions on the Internet.

If someone wants further explanation, they should go here:

http://www.scborromeo.org/ccc.htm

Very succinctly put.

Sola Scriptura, to put in scholarly terms, is the most retarded way to live.

the concept of thinking that the bible contains the knowledge and path to god is not so bad, what is contested is the Scriptura. What constitutes the bible?? what books? what translations convey the true essence? which intepretation of contested passages are correct??

to base your faith on the bible alone is like setting sail in a washing machine. destined for a whirpool of confusion.

4/20/06 conver2sations: "the ags will be ranked in the single-digits going into December"



http://bradshrugged.com/main

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Sola Scriptura, to put in scholarly terms, is the most retarded way to live.

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4/20/06 conver2sations: "the ags will be ranked in the single-digits going into December"

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Okay, seriously...

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to base your faith on the bible alone is like setting sail in a washing machine. destined for a whirpool of confusion.

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What other basis do you have for your faith besides the bible?

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to base your faith on the bible alone is like setting sail in a washing machine. destined for a whirpool of confusion.

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Yes, everyone in the world having their own "revelation" does not lead to confusion.

The Bible is the constant in the faith which prevents a spiral into chaos.

i didn't say the bible as one of multiple sources was foolish. only the bible alone.

and to answer TechDiver's question: i don't have a perfect alternate theory, i'm only eliminating flawed ones.

also, good point on drawing the corellation between outlandish football claims and pillars of faith.

good thing my foolishness is based on faith in football and not in a contested collection of religious works.

Then in absence of a better theory, I'll stick with what works.

Notafraid,

Speaking of bold-faced lies:

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This is why it’s clear to any honest observer that Roman Catholicism today is full of darkness.

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From another website:

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While it is criticized in many places, the Catholic Church also has contributed much to society through its Social Doctrine which has guided leaders to promote social justice and by setting up the hospital system in Medieval Europe, a system which was different from the merely reciprocal hospitality of the Greeks and family-based obligations of the Romans. These hospitals begun to cater to "particular social groups marginalized by poverty, sickness, and age," according to historian of hospitals, Guenter Risse. The Catholic Church as opus proprium, says Benedict XVI in Deus Caritas Est, has conducted throughout the centuries from its very beginning and continues to conduct many charitable services—hospitals, schools, poverty alleviation programs, among others. The Catholic Church remains the largest humanitarian organization in the world and is a leading voice for the poor.

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Such dishonesty seems to characterize modern Roman Catholicism, and many of it’s adherents. Bald faced lies are taught as truth. This is why it’s clear to any honest observer that Roman Catholicism today is full of darkness.

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Wow! You've really gone off the deep end now Notafraid. I can post numerous links of Protestant sites that mischaracterize and out right lie about Catholic teachings (and not just Jack Chick type sites either) but I would never go so far to brand all Reformed Christianity as being full of darkness because some hold hatred in their hearts. As far as being a honest observer, you are anything but one on when it comes to Catholic Christianity or its teachings; you have expressed your enmity time and again on this board.

[This message has been edited by jkag89 (edited 6/28/2006 3:10p).]

TD...(Techdiver)


You’re not saved by Faith...........................................................................................................







But rather.................












You are saved by G R A C E !!!........You are JUSTIFIED by Faith, Saved by HIS Grace

Rather more specifically and accurately, and as the Church teaches and has always taught on salvation, you are actually Justified by Faith and Works, Saved by Grace alone.....

So, the Sola that matters, is

....Sola Venia, or Sola Decor....Grace Alone

And, one more for you regarding Salvation:

extra ecclesiam nulla salus...

Outside the Church there is no Salvation"

May your Journey Home be Filled with The Holy Spirit...


"And the Gates of Hell Shall Not Prevail Against It...."

texag_89

Texag89 - my apologies for not stating myself more clearly. I didn't state that we're saved by faith. I said it is by our faith that we can be saved (which is what justification basically means, at least in this context).

Regardless, I should have spelled things out more clearly. Thanks for calling me on that.

Regarding a couple of different ideas in your post: it is well known that a key difference in Roman catholicism and the reformed churches is the notion of justification by works.

Suffice it to say I disagree with Rome in this respect... but we can just leave it at that.

Also interesting is your quote "Outside the Church there is no Salvation".

This could be a source of complete agreement between varying denominations of Christianity, or something COMPLETELY divisive.

It all comes down to how you define the word "Church".

What is your definition of the word "Church" as used in the context above?

Thanks again.

-td

Tech -

Sola scriptura. - yes. The bible does contain everything that you need to know for SALVATION. That does not mean that it contains everything there is to know about faith. Nor does it mean that the Bible can interpret itself.

Solo Christo - yup. We believe that too. It is Christ that saves us. everything else comes from our faith in Christ.

Sola Fide - uh huh. but read James 2: 14-26

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14 What good is it, my brothers, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can that faith save him?
15 If a brother or sister has nothing to wear and has no food for the day,
16 and one of you says to them, "Go in peace, keep warm, and eat well," but you do not give them the necessities of the body, what good is it?
17 So also faith of itself, if it does not have works, is dead.
18 Indeed someone might say, "You have faith and I have works." Demonstrate your faith to me without works, and I will demonstrate my faith to you from my works.
19 You believe that God is one. You do well. Even the demons believe that and tremble.
20 Do you want proof, you ignoramus, that faith without works is useless?
21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered his son Isaac upon the altar?
22 You see that faith was active along with his works, and faith was completed by the works.
23 Thus the scripture was fulfilled that says, "Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness," and he was called "the friend of God."
24 See how a person is justified by works and not by faith alone.
25 And in the same way, was not Rahab the harlot also justified by works when she welcomed the messengers and sent them out by a different route?
26 For just as a body without a spirit is dead, so also faith without works is dead.

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Sola Gratia - yes. and God's Grace is given through His Sacraments.

Soli Deo Gloria - absolutely.

kbaum: thanks for the thoughtful message. My opinions follow - they are only my opinions, based on my belief, and don't necessarily represent the position of ANY church.

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Sola scriptura. - yes. The bible does contain everything that you need to know for SALVATION. That does not mean that it contains everything there is to know about faith. Nor does it mean that the Bible can interpret itself.

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I disagree with the notion that the bible doesn't contain everything there is to know about faith. There is nothing about faith that the bible can't teach me, as the living Word of God.

I agree that the Bible can't interpret itself - the Holy Spirit, acting in our hearts and through the body of believers, serves to interpret the scripture for us.

Although you didn't come out and say it, I suspect that you believe that the interpretation of scripture can only be given through the Roman Catholic church. Of course, I disagree with this notion as well. There are many wise scholars of scripture that were not Catholics. And I also believe I am uniquely capable of interpreting the scripture, as taught to me through the Holy Spirit, as it applies specifically to my life and my circumstances.

Regarding Sola Fide: We have no disagreement on the call to good works by scripture. However, we disagree on how works play into our justification. I'm sure I don't need to go into this, but if you're interested in what I believe regarding works, let me know and I'll fill you in. The main point, however, in the context of this thread is simple: there's not a heading that says "Only Faith and Works". Sola Fide, Sola Fide, Sola Fide. "Only" means "Only"!

Grace Alone: God dispenses His Grace to us in MANY, MANY ways. The Catholic sacraments may or may not be among them, but let's assume they are. But the point is that I am the daily recipient of God's Grace, and I'm not Catholic, and have never participated in a Catholic sacrament.



[This message has been edited by TechDiver (edited 6/28/2006 4:49p).]

you may have received a sacrament and not known it...

for instance - are you married in a christian church?

cause if so, then have received the sacrament of matrimony, no different than a catholic does.

(the sacrament of marriage is performed by the couple, not by the priest, which is why the catholic church recognizes the validity of any Christian marriage that meets certain logistical requirements (i.e. not a forced marriage, not rushed into - spur of the moment, heterosexual, ect...)

TD,

Remember to a Catholic justification is an ongoing process, for many Protestants it is viewed as a one time thing. In the same way that sanctification is a one time thing for Catholics and a process for many Protestants.
The Catholic view of the faith and works deal is not referring to works as a system in and of themselves. Rather these are works done in grace, a grace that make's them acceptable to God who has placed them before us to perform. No Catholic would (if properly educated) would say that these works are of our own doing, quite the opposite. They can only be done through grace.

quote:

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I agree that the Bible can't interpret itself - the Holy Spirit, acting in our hearts and through the body of believers, serves to interpret the scripture for us.

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TechDiver - What if two people/denominations come to two different conclusions? Who's correct? The one that baptizes infants, or the one who doesn't? The one that believes in the Real Presence of Jesus in Communion, or the one who says it's merely symbolic? The one who says that homosexuality is now A-OK, or the one who says it's sinful? And what if you belong to the wrong one? Do any of the above contradictions matter as regards your faith, and if not, why are they in the bible in the first place?

How can they all be "Solas"? Don't they all go together? "Sola" would imply that you only need one without the others.