A sincere man, right as rain on the selling of indulgences, wrong on disunifying the Church, right and true concerning the Virgin Mary, wrong on editing the Bible to fit his personal theology, and very wrong on being anti-semitic.

1. No Protestants claim that Luther was infallible.

2. No Protestants claim Luther ascended to heaven.

3. No Protestants pray to Luther.

Cerainly wrong about James, Hebrews, 2 and 3 John, Revelation......

1. No Protestants claim that Luther was infallible.

2. No Protestants claim Luther ascended to heaven.

3. No Protestants pray to Luther.

No Catholics 'pray' to Mary.

^
Must not have read the other $0.02 thread.

Haha yes I did read it. It is not doctrine to 'pray' to Mary. As one person said, we are asking for her prayers, but it's not a normal situation, so you talk to her in the same way that you would pray in. To say it is praying denotes worship to many, which is not supposed to happen (but does among many malinformed Catholics).

Would you say Mary is in heaven right now? I would.

Luke 15:7,10: I tell you, in just the same way there will be more joy in heaven over one sinner who repents than over ninety-nine righteous people who have no need of repentance… In just the same way, I tell you, there will be rejoicing among the angels of God over one sinner who repents.

Joy in heaven? rejoicing? I think that would imply that others in heaven know what's going on here on Earth. However, they must only receive that knowledge because God allows them to have it. How can heaven increase in joy over a repentant sinner, unless they know the sinner has become repentant? It must be because God has made them aware of it. Therefore, God is able to make the saints aware also of our prayers.

Revelation 5:8: When he took it, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb. Each of the elders held a harp and gold bowls filled with incense, which are the prayers of the holy ones.

The saints are offering the prayers of the holy ones, those on earth. They must be aware of the prayers in order to offer them.

Therefore, the saints in heaven are made aware of our prayers by God.

The saints in heaven do pray for us on earth, and have knowledge of our prayers. (Read carefully) It is not absolutely necessary to seek the aid of God alone; it is only necessary to seek the aid ultimately FROM him alone.

Did Luther ask for Mary's intercession?

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1. No Protestants claim that Luther was infallible.

2. No Protestants claim Luther ascended to heaven.

3. No Protestants pray to Luther.

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The protestants would be correct on all 3 items, for sure...

73, a loud "Amen".

Gig'em, Ole Army Class of '70

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A sincere man, right as rain on the selling of indulgences...

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Texags73, do you have a problem with indulgences period or just the selling of indulgences?

Indlgences are fine - The good thief on the cross got one before he died, so they are biblical. The selling of blessings, called simony, is strictly forbidden in the book of Acts.

Blessings are still sold on TBN every night, by the way-- "Give me $1000, and you will be receive a blessing..."

The blessings sold on TBN are no more right than the ones once sold by the Catholic church. It's pretty disgusting if you ask me. And it's not just the "selling" of blessings, but the whole prosperity gospel theme being emphasized today. As if Jesus came to die so that I may have 2 cars instead of one.

As for the thief on the cross, wasn't that Christ who forgave? And wasn't that just grace, the same grace that saved you and I? The thief believed and he was saved. We can debate on how and why the thief believed (I would say his heart was changed by a miraculous work of the Holy Spirit), but this was no different than how we are saved. If his salvation was an indulgence than so is yours and mine.

OS - Do you know what an indulgence is?

73--

How did Luther edit the Bible?

Thanks,

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The selling of blessings, called simony, is strictly forbidden in the book of Acts.

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Simony is more than selling of indulgences. To be honest, I never thought of selling indulgences as simony. It seems to fit the definition.

Simony is also to mean the selling of ecclesiastical offices and general pardons/decisions/judgments. The word is mostly used to describe the when someone is chosen for an ecclesiastical position and he turns around and either pays the elector an upfront lump sum or a series of payments using the revenues generated from that position. Sort of a kick-back I guess.

Onto Luther -

He was human. He had attributes and character that made him a mixture of good and bad. He was intelligent, driven, articulate, and pious. He was also ruthless, uncompromissing, had poor people skills at times, and hyper-polemic.

If he is to be judged, then he needs to be placed into the context of his time period. Comparing his deeds to the deeds of today is a bit skewed.

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... and [Luther was] very wrong on being anti-semitic.

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It was wrong, but so were other people of the time. Luther was not a propagandist to promote pogroms against the Jews. If his racial hatred is to be used to brush all of his believers, then that is just plain wrong.

[This message has been edited by Ft Worth Ag (edited 5/6/2006 11:04a).]

Bq - Luther added the word "alone" after faith in Romans 3:28, and he removed the books of 1 and 2 Maccabbees, Judith, Baruch, The Wisdom of Solomon, Tobit, and Sirach from the canon of the Old Testament. All of these books are in the Gutenberg bible, published before Luther was born...

http://www.catholicexchange.com/clibrary/document.asp?document_id=533&category_id=&main_cat_id=&chunk=1