Who Believes in Miraculous Healing?

422 Views | 30 Replies | Last: 19 yr ago by Homsar
Daddy
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Meaning just as the apostles were commanded to lay hands on the sick and they recover!!!!!

If you don't, when did it stop, and why and what part?

I am just curious. I most certainly do, but I understand a lot of the cynecism, but it does not appear to be Biblically but more logical thinking.

I think it says somewhere in the New Testament that Peter's shadow healed people.

It also says the same spirit that raised Christ from the dead lives in me.

Pretty powerful. Discuss
Special K 03
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This is one of my big struggles with being a Christian. I feel like I'm outside the circle (the circle being NT times). Most of the stories are hard to relate to, because I've never experienced stuff like that.

My $0.02...
Sink Maggots
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...and you never will. Those miraculous gifts and powers do not exist anymore.

[This message has been edited by 77 (edited 5/2/2006 12:53p).]
Special K 03
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quote:
Those miraculous gifts and powers do not exist anymore.


Kind of downer, don't you think?
NoACDamnit
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Odd that they'd go away as we gained the ability to verify them.
Sink Maggots
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Not really...
NoACDamnit
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Why?
Sink Maggots
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Because scripture claimed it would go away as the revealing of God's word was completed (I Cor 13:10) -- which was in the 1st century. So it was done away with before we had the stuff to test it. That little argument doesn't hold water...
Special K 03
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quote:
but when the perfect comes, the partial will be done away.


You interpret 'perfect' to mean the canonization of Scripture. That's a lot of mileage for one little word.
ibmagg
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My friends, I do humbly testify that they do exist, and have since the Gospel was restored. It was not an idle comment when it says in Jas. 5:14 "Is any sick among you? Let him call for the Elders of the Church; and let let him pray over him, annoiting with oil in the name of the Lord: And the prayer of faith shall save the sick, and the Lord shall raise him up up; and if he committed sins, they shall be forgiven him." Outside of the LDS Church, I am curious as to how many churches actually practice this "annoiting with concescrated oil for the healing of the sick"? There are so many examples in Church history, witnessed by so many, that they cannot be dismissed. We do not proselyte on the basis of these things, but the Gift of healing is alive and well in the LDS Church. I posted sometime ago when Joseph healed so many that were sick on the banks of the Mississippi, (some nigh unto death), and the account of this was recorded by countless number of the saints in their journals.

I enjoy the account that occurred in Kirtland, Ohio. Mrs. John Johnson, who lived in the town of Hiram, forty miles distant from Kirtland, heard of the wonderful man that could receive revelations from God, HEAL the sick and see angels. She had a stiff arm that she wanted healed and made useful like the other, so she induced her husband to take a journey to Kirtland to see the Prophet.

Joseph asked her if she believed that God could make him an instrument in healing her arm which had been stiff for a long time. She ansered that she believed that her arm could be healed. The Prophet only remarked that he would visit her the next day.

The next day Joseph came to Bishop Newel K. Whitney's home where Mr. Johnson and his wife were staying. There was a campbellite doctor and a Methodist preacher in the room. He took Mrs. Johnson by the hand and without sitting down or standing on ceremonies, and after a short mental prayer, pronounced her arm whole in the name of Jesus Christ. He then left the house immediately. When he was gone, the preacher asked her if his arm was well. She immediately stretched out her arm staight, remarking at the same time, it's as well as the other."

The next day the preacher came to the house of Philo Dibble, who lived a little out of town, and related what he saw, and then tried to explain it on natural principles, saying that WHEN Joseph pronounced that arm whole in the name of Jesus Christ, it frightened her so badly that it threw her into a heavy perspiration and relaxed the cords, and the result was that she could straighten her arm. I guess that was a better explanation than some who commented on that thread about the greatest healing episode recorded in Church history, (as it was witnessed and participated in by so many), that it was obviously the work of the devil, Joseph being a false prophet.

I have personally witnessed many, but I will share only two with all of you. In Sept. of 1970, I and my family were driving back from the A&M-Wichita St. football game and outside of Marlin was struck by a drunk Baylor student driving on the wrong side of the road. My feeling as I looked at my two small children, with my 6 year old daughter looking like half of her head was gone, my wife covered with blood, and the individual who perpertrated this horrible scene lying moaning in the middle of the highway, had I not been a recently baptized member, I would have put him out of his misery permanently! My 4 year old son tried to get outof the car and walk around and I was impressed to have him lie down and not move, even though he did not look injured. I gave him a father's blessing and after they got him to the hospital, it was discovered from the X-rays, that he had three broker ribs and three fractured vertabrae.

It was the caving in of the side of the car that gave the impression that half of my daughter's head was missing at it covered it over (She had been lying asleep on the floorboard with her head against the door). When the ambulance got us to the hospital in Marlin, I took the opportunity to call the Bishop. It was approximately 1:30AM. I told him what haddd happened and that they going to take us to a hospital in Waco as they were not equipped to handle the seriousness of my daughter's injuries. (By the time we had got only to Marlin, one eye had swollen shut and under the eyelid, it looked like some one had put a full sized egg). The Bishop in Dallas Called a Bishop in waco and by the time we had got to the hospital in Waco, he and one of his counselors met us. At a little after 3:00 AM Bishop Danley and his first counselor arrived from Dallas. They gave my son and my daugher a priesthood blessing after annoiting their heads with oil. I will never forget the blessing that my daughter received. Most blessings of healing are based on the faithfulness of the individual receiving the blessing, but not this time. He promised her that she would make a full recovery. Within a day we were moved by ambulance to Bayor hospital. The Neurosurgeon told my wife and I that he would wait a couple of days before operting on the head trauma that my daughter had suffered. His quote was "we want to be in control of the istuation, instead of the situation being in control of us'. The nurse (a member of our Ward) heard him exclaim, over and over, "oh, no; on, no" The brain sheath had been penetraed but she had begun healing so well that he never dreamed that her injuries could be so serious. He removed the necrotic brain tissue as well as a part of the skull. We had to wait a couple of months before he could put in the accryic plastic plate to replace the piece of skull that he had removed. I can not tell you how disconcerting it was to sit at the dinner table and see that portion of her head pulsing, and looking around and perceiving every sharp cornered piece of furniture as a super danger if she stumbled and hit it. They had x-rayed her eye and told us that she had a blow-out fracture of her left eye. When she went back in for her next treatment, I can hardly describe the reaction of the eye Doctor "We looked at X-ray, we examinded her eye, we saw the fracture and now there is none. For years and years he and his nurse referred to her as their "miracle" child.

My son wore a back brace for several months and was completely healed. He played every sport you could imagine and played on Ricardson H.S.'s playoff team that beat Carter in the playoffs in the Cotton Bowl and the following week lost to Highland Park at Texas Stadium. My daughter completely recovered and was named the outstanding business at RHS (a school of 3,000 at the time). I told them they could go to any College they wanted, but I would pay their way to A&M or BYU. My son went to A&M and was in the Corps all 4 years and my daughter got her degree in finance. Each have four wonderful children and I could not be more blessed. An interesting aside; My wife had refused to initally join the Church, but unknownst to me had retaken the discussions,(and this time listened), while I was at work. She had set the baptismal date with the Bishop and was going to surprise me with this good news that Sunday morning at Church. With this horrible wreck, she could have easily taken the position that this was a sign from God that she was making a very bad decision. She never wavered and is a tremendous example to all that she comes in contact with. I don't expect to ever meet a more honorable woman or a more loving wife, mother and grandmother.

Last year I received a call from the Bishop and was asked if I would go with another quorum member to adminster to an ill individual at Medical City, who was not a member of the Church. It was after 9:00 PM so I was dressed very casually and my initial reaction was not one of excitement at this opportunity. But as my wife has reminded me many times, compassionate service is rarely convenient. As we drove over there I learned that the man's wife, who had joined the Church a year earlier, had requested this blessing for her husband. I wondered how pleased "he" would be over the request. When we met them, they were a delightful couple, about my age. He had developed some severe heart symptoms while travelling through Dallas from East texas. After we concluded our business, I gave his wife my business card (which is a "fun card that states my name, etc. with the little inscription "retired in everthing except in supporting Texas A&M" with an offer to help in any way that we could.

That afternoon the individual called me. I assumed he was still in the hospital as his wife indicated he might have to be there for a while. But no he said, he was home in Mt. Pleasant. The problem that was going to keep the Dr. from discharging him was no longer there and he had left Dallas at mid-morning. I had told my companion when I left the hospital that I impressed that this man would be baptized for he seemed so pleased with his wife's joining and what he had learned about the Church and the members whom he had closely observed.

He had looked at my card and noticed that I was an Aggie and so was he. What class? Class of '60. Well, so am I. Obviously we had a fun time discussing our college days. 4 months later he called me and told me had been baptized and how overjoyed he was. He and his wife were going to Salt Lake to stay with his sergeant who had served under him and was a member of the Church. Although it would be a year before he could go through the temple and take out his own endowments, he could perform baptisms for the dead, the prospect for which he was very excited. He had retired from the Air Force as a Major and his sergeant and he used to kid each other as they stayed in touch over the years. "You only made sergeant because I was your comanding officer; you only made major because I was your first sergeant".

I have thought about what the odds were of getting a call to admisister to a person late at night and finding out it was one of my A&M classmates. I believe that there was only 517 left as seniors (and there are fewer of us now) so the odds were pretty big against it.

These are just a very few of many reasons why I know that miracles still exist. That was one of John Wesley's (the founder of the Methodist Church) great frustrations when he wrote "It does not appear that these extraordinary gifts of the Holy Ghost were common in the church for more than two or three centuries. We seldom hear of them after that FATAL period when the Emperor Constantine called himself a Christian.....The real cause was that the love of many was waxed cold. The Christians had no more of the Spirit of Christ than the other HEATHENS. This was the real cause;..The Christians were turned heathen again and had only A DEAD FORM left!" Pretty harsh, but true.

[This message has been edited by ibmagg (edited 5/2/2006 3:34p).]
Homsar
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I believe in miraculous healing.
The Lone Stranger
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God, by definition, can certainly supercede physical law whenever He wants. To deny that is to defy miracles.

I do have a problem with the doctrines that teach healing on demand, and twist scripture into making God a celestial bellhop who jumps to my prayer demands.
RAB91
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Sure. Those things probably still happen. However, in my belief it doesn't directly impact my salvation, so it is not something I spend too much time worrying about.
ibmagg
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No, it doesn't affect one's salvation, but it was and is one of the "fruits" of the Gospel and is another evidence of "Christ's" Church.
Guadaloop474
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I've witnessed a miraculous healing, and these things exist all the time in Charismatic Catholic Community....
Fightin TX Aggie
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There are so many churches and preachers who claim healing. I don't know which ones to believe. I do believe that God heals. I have seen it. It did not come from any preacher. It just came from God.
Homsar
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It's not who we should believe, its that we do believe. Personally, I believe that healings and prophecy and other miracles are much, much more the exception than they are the rule.

It happens, but in few cases. We have stories of it in the Bible, but those represent a very small percentage of what was happening in the first century church.
Sink Maggots
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Well I know someone with a torn ACL. Lets round up the "healers", and lets see what we can do...
Guadaloop474
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http://claretiantapeministry.org/schedule.html

77 - Have your friend call Father Hampsch. He will pray for your friend over the phone. He, through the power of the Holy Ghost, has healed many people, depending on THEIR faith...
NoACDamnit
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quote:
77 - Have your friend call Father Hampsch. He will pray for your friend over the phone. He, through the power of the Holy Ghost, has healed many people, depending on THEIR faith...


What an awful condition to place on curing sickness.
Daddy
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77, If you take the word saved in the Bible, it is translated if you look at the original Qunee' (spelling) Greek and it means to be made whole (physically, spiritually, emotionally, it means to be properous, it means to be be redeemed.

With that said, the reason why not everyone receives the healing is the same reason when you go to a jail and profess the Word of God and that salvation comes from Grace through faith and not everyone receives it.

Not everyone receives it. As you noticed that most people that were healed had tremendous faith.

The Centurion said if you just speak the Word then I know my servant will be healed and Jesus said your faith was great and he is healed.

What about the lady that grabbed the hem of his garment.

The same spirit that raised Christ from the dead dwells in me.

Again, this power never left the Church and the Scripture actually says in the end times that even greater miracles will be performed before the coming of the Lord.

Guess what, we are seeing more miraculous healing than ever before.

I don't think it means that everyone has actually received their healing but again, it is by faith.

Jesus did not heal because he was God on Earth, He used the power of the Holy Spirit!!!!
The Lone Stranger
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quote:
With that said, the reason why not everyone receives the healing is the same reason when you go to a jail and profess the Word of God and that salvation comes from Grace through faith and not everyone receives it.


Are you saying that if someone prays for a healing for themselves or another person, if it doesn't happen, it is because the person refused the grace of God?

dermdoc
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As a Christian doctor,nothing ticks me off more than someone suggesting that some unfortunate soul wasn't healed because they did not have enough faith.I have seen people shattered and turn away from God due to some well-meaning Christian taking this attitude.We must be very careful with this subject or we will do more harm than good.
LevelAg
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First, I agree with 77 regarding 1 Corinthians 13:10. Along with that, we find that ONLY the apostles were able to pass on the gifts of the Holy Spirit such as revelation, speaking in tongues, healings, etc. Since they are all dead, it is impossible for these things to then be passed on to others.

God tells us to pray for others, and oftentimes these people are healed. That is not a miracle. The miracle is not in some strange thing happening, for God can do all things. These are simply the works of God. The miracle is in a person directly healing the person by the power of God. The scriptures show no evidence of it occurring this way any longer b/c we have the Word with us to show us the power of God.

Regarding the having of faith to be healed -- yes, in some passages Jesus declares that it is faith that heals. But in other places no such condition exists. Jesus healed the blind man in John 9. In verse 25, the man says, "Whether He is a sinner or not I do not know." That's not exactly a firm faith in Christ as the Messiah.

In Acts 3, Peter heals a lame man who was seeking alms, not a cure. That doesn't sound like faith was present or required. The faith requirement is an "I can heal, but only if you let me" cop out by those who claim to have a healing power not truly possessed by them.

Yes, we have the same Spirit dwelling in us, but that does not mean He works in the same way today as He did then.

If the same is true of today as then, why are we not still adding in books to the NT as people claim Spirit-inspired writings? We have the same Spirit, right? The difference is the Spirit does not work in us that way. He has established the word of God and does not need men today to write more into His already perfect word. The same is true of spiritual gifts. They were used for a purpose - to declare the power of God/Jesus to the people. Now we have the written word declaring those stories to us. We have no apostles to pass on such a gift. This particular gift is no longer a part of the Lord's church. Those who claim to have it should be looked upon skeptically.
Special K 03
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quote:
but when the perfect comes, the partial will be done away.


Am I the only one who thinks this verse is getting stretched to mean what people want it to mean? Nowhere in this passage or in its context does 'perfect' refer to the canonization of Scripture.

If you honestly believe this, then please parse the verses for me and show me where you're getting this.
muster ag
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Statistically, I'll bet "miracles" are distributed unbiasly across the "faith" spectrum.
DaveAg77
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Some general comments on miraculous healing:

1) Miracles and healings are throughout the Bible, however, most of them were concentrated in 3 short time periods -- the time of Moses, the time of Elijah and Elisha, the time of Jesus and the Apostles. You will find the majority of the miracles and healings during these times, but not all of them

2) Miracles and healings were not PRIMARILY for the benefit of the recepient (even though it is obvious they did benefit), but the primary purpose was to bring attention to and give validation to something major God was doing. The first period was validating Moses and the giving of the Law. The second validated the prophets; the third, Jesus & the apostles and the inclusion of the Gentiles into the people of God.

3) In each case where multitude of miracles and healings were done, after the validation was done, the healings and miracles stopped. Since the purpose was not to heal folks and make them well, but to ratify God's agenda, there was no need to continue. If it were God's intent for all Christians to be well all the time, we would be.

4) God does continue to heal and do miracles, but these incidents are isolated, individual, and in keeping with God's agenda for the day and hour. Why God heals some and not others is a mystery which He has not chosen to reveal. It has nothing to do with whether you have enough faith or not; if faith is required, He will provide it.

In summary, does God heal today? Yes. Does God do miracles today? Yes. The situation today is much different than it was when He began the church and used miracles and healing in the first century to establish that beginning as His work and establish the Apostles as His authority at that time. Those days have long since passed. But God, in His grace and mercy, does choose to visit us from time to time with a healing or miracle, for reasons He keeps to Himself.
Homsar
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quote:
Statistically, I'll bet "miracles" are distributed unbiasly across the "faith" spectrum.

That's right, they are. But very few, if any, are probably true miracles.

If you are looking for a miracle, then you will likely find one. If you are living by faith, then you may or may not experience a miracle. It should not dictate your faith.
Daddy
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dermdoc, what I am saying is all are healed. The difference is not everyone receives it.

People that say I am sick will be sick, if you say by the power of Jesus Christ I am healed, I am healed. Sometimes it will be instantaneously, sometimes it won't.

That is a matter of persistent faith and a matter of the strength in faith.

Even with that said, it says in the scripture, that greater miracles will be performed before my coming.

That quote from 1st Corinthians has been mis quoted. Go read it in the Greek if you are really interested in getting the actual meaning. If you truly believe that God power is not alive in us to heal, then why are so many doing it?

As far as those that don't believe in supernatural healing, I don't think you have to worry about it, you won't see it.

I'll tell you this, whatever you ask for in prayer, if you don't doubt it in your heart, it shall be done.

Whatever you ask for in my name shall be granted.

By his wounds we have been healed?

The Word of God did not lie.

As far as miracles being performed just in Elijah's days and in the early Church with the Apostles.

The Jews left Egypt healthy, full of Gold, and blessed. They were not sick. Sickness entered from disobedience. They could not have made that journey.
Daddy
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level, 1st Corn 13:10 says: But when perfection comes, the imperfect disappears.

This is referring to love, it is a love chapter. Where love is not there, the gifts of the Spirit are meaningless.

It has nothing to do with the gifts of the Spirit ceasing with the Apostles. Seriously, you guys can't be going off of what I just read as a verse that states that supernatural gifts cease.

I think 1st Peter 2:24 which says He himself bore our sins in his body on the tree, so that we might die to sins and live for righteousness; by his wounds you have been healed.

That is not interpretation, that is flat out spelling it out in clear language. This passage is also a extention from what was prerecorded several hundred years earlier in Isaiah 53:9.

Here is the last chapt in Mark:
16:15, He said to them, Go into all the world and preach the good news to all creation. Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved but whever does not believe will be condemned. And these signs will Accompany those who believe; In my name they will drive out demons, they will speak in new tongues, they will pick up snakes with their hands and when they drink deadly poison, it will not hurt them at all, they will place their hands on sick people and they will get well.

Sounds pretty straight forward.

Luke 843, And a woman was there who had been subject to bleeding for 12 years but no one could heal her. She came up from behind him and touched the edge of his cloak and immediately her bleeding stopped.

Who touched me? Jesus Asked.

When they all denied it, Peter said Master, the people are crowding and pressing against you.

But Jesus said someone touched me; I know that power had gone out from me. Then the woman seeing that she could not go unnoticed came trembling and fell at his feet. in the presence of the people, she told why they had touched him and how she had been instantly healed. Then Jesus said, Daughter, your faith has healed you.

Jesus did not heal because he was God in the flesh, he healed because he was a annointed Man of God, that was walking with the Spirit of God upon Him.

Again, the Same Spirit that raised Christ from the Dead dwells in Us. Us is everyone not just the early church apostles.
LevelAg
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Daddy,

Read the entire chapter instead of pulling out one verse. Verse 8 in 1 Corinthians 13 says,
quote:
Love never fails. But whether there are prophecies, they will fail; whether there are tongues, they will cease; whether there is knowledge, it will vanish away.
9 For we know in part and we prophesy in part.


"Will fail" is from the Greek "katargeo" which means, "to cease, pass away, be done away" or "be brought to an end." The words "vanish away" comes from the same Greek word.

It shows that these other things -- gifts of the Spirit -- would vanish away. At the end of chapter 12 Paul says,
quote:
But earnestly desire the best gifts. And yet I show you a more excellent way.


Now he is explaining why love is the better way. The others served a short term purpose of declaring God and His power. Verse 9 says the gifts served a purpose but were not the fullness of the "mystery of God." Verse 11, in Paul's analogy, calls the miraculous spiritual gifts "childish things." Why? Because it served the purpose of the infancy of Christ's church. As the church matured, just as a man puts away the things of his childhood (or should), the church put away the "childish things" such as spiritual gifts.

The fact that Jesus or God heals us in no way declares that miracles exist. As I said, God healing us is not a miracle -- He is God. He is omnipotent, omnipresent, omniscient. If Him doing these things were considered a miracle to us, then we do not believe He always has the power He says He has.

The miracles of the Bible came from a MAN healing/working spiritual gifts by the power of God -- showing that they served God, and He was in their lives. Jesus' miracles are called such b/c He did them as a man -- fully flesh (yet fully God). Someone with cancer praying to God for a cure and being cured is not a miracle. It is an act of God. Now if a man can prove that he healed a person with cancer by calling for a healing in the name of God and receiving instantaneous results as the apostles did, then he could claim a miracle. Praying for someone and them getting better is not a miracle. It is the established power of prayer as James speaks of in 5:16.
Homsar
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I believe in miraculous events, but I don't think we should expect them as a normative part of the Christian life because they just aren't.
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