OSAg01,

I agree, it’s a hard doctrine to believe, because it grates against the pride of man.

Yes. I have prayed for you and for me in this entire situation of trying to teach others just as Paul prayed for strength and courage while he was teaching. I will continue to pray all the time. But thanks for the exhortation.

As far as not addressing the scriptures you quoted, this has been done before and I’ll be glad to do it again. Despite what you would LIKE to believe we DO actually agree on SOME points although through your condescension you would try to make others believe something that is not. For example:

To this verse:

Matthew 23:37 “O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the one who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you were not willing!

You replied in this manner:

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This verse speaks nothing of the ability of the will of natural man. You assume it. In fact, it confirms that man is not willing, but kills the prophets, and stones those who are sent to her. Though God condescended to gentle and even maternal kindness towards this nation. These verses actually speak of the disgrace on this wicked nation, which had treated with disdain the kind and gentle invitations of the Lord. That God makes a general offer though only a remnant will accept it is the common theme of the scriptures.

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I agree wholeheartedly with this statement:

Though God condescended to gentle and even maternal kindness towards this nation. These verses actually speak of the disgrace on this wicked nation, which had treated with disdain the kind and gentle invitations of the Lord. That God makes a general offer though only a remnant will accept it is the common theme of the scriptures.

Nothing could be truer. This is said of the people that GOD chose as His people who turned away from Him. Only a remnant DID accept Him. That remnant who had an ability (desire) to hear and understand Him. Without the desire we cannot follow Christ.

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Matthew 16:24-25 24 Then Jesus said to His disciples, “If anyone desires to come after Me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow Me. 25 For whoever desires to save his life will lose it, but whoever loses his life for My sake will find it.

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Now, when you say:

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This verse speaks nothing of the ability of the will of natural man. You assume it. In fact, it confirms that man is not willing, but kills the prophets, and stones those who are sent to her.

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You say nothing that backs that statement. To the contrary you support the idea that men must choose who they will serve and most of the Jews chose not to serve Christ.

For ease of reading I’ll post about the other verses in another reply. Please bare with me while I finish this. It will take some time.

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That remnant who had an ability (desire) to hear and understand Him. Without the desire we cannot follow Christ.

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Many people follow Jesus for a time for different reasons. Some followed Him because they liked being fed when He fed the 5000, but see what happened here:

John 6:65 And He was saying, "For this reason I have said to you, that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted him from the Father." 66 As a result of this many of His disciples withdrew and were not walking with Him anymore.
They fell away. They were not of His sheep. Can you answer the verses that speak of natural man’s inability, and disposition that I and OSAg posted?

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You say nothing that backs that statement. To the contrary you support the idea that men must choose who they will serve and most of the Jews chose not to serve Christ.

For ease of reading I’ll post about the other verses in another reply. Please bare with me while I finish this. It will take some time.

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You are still not understanding me. I have never said that men don’t choose for or against God. I have said that they have the inability to choose for God unless God first makes them born again. Regeneration precedes repentance and faith.

As far as getting bare with you. I don’t think that would be appropriate. I hardly know you, and I am a married man!

Continuing:

To understand John 6:65 you have to back up in that same chapter and understand the context of what is being said there. Early on in that chapter Christ is teaching the disciples that God gave His people (the Israelites) bread (manna) when they were wandering in the wilderness. The bread did not come from Moses. It was from God. This was life saving bread that God gave but they had to gather it and eat it for it to save them. The Bread of Life that we have been given was given from God (John 6:35).

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53 Then Jesus said to them, “Most assuredly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink His blood, you have no life in you. 54 Whoever eats My flesh and drinks My blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day. 55 For My flesh is food indeed, and My blood is drink indeed. 56 He who eats My flesh and drinks My blood abides in Me, and I in him. 57 As the living Father sent Me, and I live because of the Father, so he who feeds on Me will live because of Me.

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We do not gain life because of the actions we take or of our own volition. We gain everlasting life because we are obedient to His Word in His perfect plan of salvation. If it were not for His grace and mercy then He would not have revealed His Word to us and our actions would be in vain and there would be no hope.

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I Corinthians 2:10-16 10 But God has revealed them to us through His Spirit. For the Spirit searches all things, yes, the deep things of God. 11 For what man knows the things of a man except the spirit of the man which is in him? Even so no one knows the things of God except the Spirit of God. 12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, that we might know the things that have been freely given to us by God.
13 These things we also speak, not in words which man’s wisdom teaches but which the Holy Spirit teaches, comparing spiritual things with spiritual. 14 But the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; nor can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned. 15 But he who is spiritual judges all things, yet he himself is rightly judged by no one. 16 For “who has known the mind of the LORD that he may instruct Him?” But we have the mind of Christ.

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If we are Spiritually minded then we are able to understand Spiritual things.

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Romans 8:1-11 1 There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus, who do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit. 2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has made me free from the law of sin and death. 3 For what the law could not do in that it was weak through the flesh, God did by sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, on account of sin: He condemned sin in the flesh, 4 that the righteous requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit. 5 For those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who live according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit. 6 For to be carnally minded is death, but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. 7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God; for it is not subject to the law of God, nor indeed can be. 8 So then, those who are in the flesh cannot please God.
9 But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. Now if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not His. 10 And if Christ is in you, the body is dead because of sin, but the Spirit is life because of righteousness. 11 But if the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, He who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through His Spirit who dwells in you.

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If we are Spiritually minded and the Spirit dwells in us we are obedient and we become heirs of the promise of salvation. As heirs of that promise we are His people and His elect.

Romans chapter 9 is speaking of those who are obedient. The obedient, the Spiritually minded are the ones that God has mercy on and those who are disobedient are not shown that mercy. The verse you quoted in this chapter is made even more clear by I Corinthians 15 when Paul is saying that without Christ and the sacrifice made on our behalf all our labor would be in vain and would be futile. No matter how much work we do if it were not for God’s mercy in sending His Son to die for us that work would mean nothing. Our Spiritual efforts have meaning ONLY because they are God’s plan and nothing else.

From John 14 we find that if we know Christ and love Him we should keep His commandments. We come to God through Christ whose plan was revealed to us through the Spirit.

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As far as getting bare with you. I don’t think that would be appropriate. I hardly know you, and I am a married man!

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That was funny!

So regeneration is where God makes the person capable of responding to him in faith. This precedes faith and justification.

What if regeneration is simply the impart of God's call to the divine, which normally happens in baptism, the Sacrament that Christ commanded immediately follow beginning faith in Him?

Thus:
God's iniative of grace enabling one to respond in faith if they so choose, which extends to all people since He desires all be saved, then faith, then baptism, then regeneration/santification/justification - receiving the Graces of Christ in faith through the Sacramental life.

Yet there is no fixed order in how God applies salvation to His people, because people are different and exist in widely various circumstance. I am different from the thief on the cross, and certainly less of a Christian than living Saints as Mother Teresa or John Paul were.

This is the problem with the "order of salvation" lists Calvinists debate.

OK Notafraid, I want to make sure that I understand exactly what you are saying before I continue.

You tell me what regeneration is then I'll continue from there.

Redstone,

Well, what if conversely, the Sacrament is a visible sign of the spiritual regeneration that is a work of God not necessarily tied in space and time to the material event? Even often an invisible conversion of the heart that precedes or follows the visible sign?

What if the Spirit who causes men to be born again comes and goes like the wind, no one knowing when He is coming or when He is going, nor can they wield, or control Him, or His actions? (John 3:8)

Your thought that God desires all men to be saved denies the clear Catholic teachings of Aquinas, and your claim that there is no order of things in salvation denies the scriptures. Romans 8:29-30), because calling does precede justification, and justification does precede glorification. These things are undeniable order of events for all of those who are being saved through Christ.



[This message has been edited by Notafraid (edited 5/2/2006 11:03a).]

CTHF,

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You tell me what regeneration is then I'll continue from there.

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Well, the scriptures say many things about it. It is described in the scriptures as being given a hew heart, a heart of flesh, an opened heart, being taught of God, being born again, given eyes to see, hears to hear, “new creation” , made alive in Christ, etc…

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We do not gain life because of the actions we take or of our own volition. We gain everlasting life because we are obedient to His Word in His perfect plan of salvation. If it were not for His grace and mercy then He would not have revealed His Word to us and our actions would be in vain and there would be no hope

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Being obedient to His word in His perfect plan of salvation are the very definition of actions we are taking. I think the main point is that we have no desire to be obedient until God gives us a new heart. He creates the desire. Without that, we fit the scripture when it says "There is no one righteous, no not one" and "There is none who seek God" We only seek, when the heart of stone is replaced by GOD with a heart of flesh (as proclaimed in Ezekial).

CTHF

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We do not gain life because of the actions we take or of our own volition. We gain everlasting life because we are obedient to His Word in His perfect plan of salvation.

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So basically you are saying we are saved by our obedient cooperation with God? Well, I disagree. I believe the scriptures teach that we are Justified (declared righteous before the Father) as a gift, with no works of obedience accompanying or preceding the justification.


Romans 4:1What then shall we say that Abraham, our forefather according to the flesh, has found? 2For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God. 3For what does the Scripture say? "ABRAHAM BELIEVED GOD, AND IT WAS CREDITED TO HIM AS RIGHTEOUSNESS." 4Now to the one who works, his wage is not credited as a favor, but as what is due. 5But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is credited as righteousness,

Then after this justification, then my view is more like what you said. I would say that we are sanctified (confirmed to the image of Christ), in that by the Spirit working in us, we freely cooperate, work, and will the things accompanying this new Spiritual life (which is our being united with Christ / Made a “new creation” with Christ)

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If it were not for His grace and mercy then He would not have revealed His Word to us and our actions would be in vain and there would be no hope.

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So in your view it sounds like God’s grace and mercy are just that He shows us the way to salvation. It sounds like your hope is in the fact that since He has done this, you “hope” you can be saved by your obeying His Word…

Again, I do not believe this is the “good news” (gospel).


The Gospel is not about us spiritually reforming ourselves. It is about the Work and glory of God taking those who are dead in sin and making them alive in Christ.



Eph 2:1And you were dead in your trespasses and sins, 2in which you formerly walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, of the spirit that is now working in the sons of disobedience. 3Among them we too all formerly lived in the lusts of our flesh, indulging the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, even as the rest. 4But God, being rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us,
5even when we were dead in our transgressions, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), 6and raised us up with Him, and seated us with Him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, 7so that in the ages to come He might show the surpassing riches of His grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. 8For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; 9not as a result of works, so that no one may boast.



[This message has been edited by Notafraid (edited 5/2/2006 11:45a).]

Well this just stinks -- I'll guess I'll just have to wait and see if God will magically bring me to him outside of his word. I believe in God, but I'm not supposed to I guess. I've never been magically drawn. I've only heeded the gospel call. Wish me luck -- cause I'm gonna need it.

77,

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Well this just stinks -- I'll guess I'll just have to wait and see if God will magically bring me to him outside of his word. I believe in God, but I'm not supposed to I guess. I've never been magically drawn. I've only heeded the gospel call. Wish me luck -- cause I'm gonna need it.

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Yet again, I never stated that God brings people to him outside of His Word. I agree that his means is by faith through the preaching of the Word. Yet again, you can’t deal with what I actually do say, but you have to pretend like I teach things that I have not.

Why do you think it is that you do not deal honestly with my positions?

The scritpture teaches that no one can come to Him unless He draws them. You apparently don’t have the ability to comprehend that anything spiritual might have happened, but everything to you appears to be about you just exercising your will, making decisions, etc, like a decision to go to the bank or something... That the scritprues teach believers that it is by his doing that we are in Christ Jesus is a great encouragement. I am sorry that you deny these things...





[This message has been edited by Notafraid (edited 5/2/2006 1:01p).]

Well then you and I agree. The only way you will come to God is by hearing it preached or reading his word.

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Well then you and I agree. The only way you will come to God is by hearing it preached or reading his word.

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That we agree on this, His chosen method of bringing his children to Him is nothing new. I have been clear about this with you long ago. Why do you think it is that you have been blinded to that truth for all this time?

If you are honest enough to admit bias, then what else could your bias be blinding you to?



[This message has been edited by Notafraid (edited 5/2/2006 1:08p).]

Blinded to what? I know the teaching of Calvin. I like to call it random selection. God selects some for heaven and some for hell. That's what it is rather you want to admit it or not that's what his teaching is.

What's my bias?

If faith only comes by hearing the word of God -- then how do I have a bias?

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Your thought that God desires all men to be saved denies the clear Catholic teachings of Aquinas

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Incorrect. But please show us.

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and your claim that there is no order of things in salvation denies the scriptures.

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Except that's not what I claimed. Of course God has His means for us individually. WE just aren't entirely clear on the great mystery of our Salvation, not even with the same Bible, which is the reason why you can argue back and forth on threads like this until we are blue in the face.

Do you contend that the thief on the cross "followed" the same formula and order you are laying out as an 85 year old long-time Christian?

Perhaps God simply rewarded his choice, his faith, with supernatural, undeserved Graces in those moments of death.

Ordo Salutis, "the order of salvaion", a set of ordered "stages" through which each individual passes to heaven, sounds nice and tidy in Calvinist conversations, but it assumes way too much - beginning with the assumption authors use terms like justification in univocal senses. But do they really use the same words in the same way all the time? And let's assume they do. There would STILL be intense arguments over the nature of our salvation - because the Bible isn't clear on this point. It just isn't. That's why "Bible" churches split. Baptist ones too. And on and on.

Take Romans 6:7. Paul uses the word "justify" in a way that overlaps with "sanctify." What does he say in the Greek? Is there really overlap? What do the terms mean in the context of other verses and the oral traditions of the Apostles passed to early Christians?

Trying to work out a detailed scheme of salvation is a bit pointless because God did not give us a clear map. Its a mystery. We are saved by the Graces of Christ received in faith. Let's follow the Greatest Commandment and not live as if we are trying to find out if we can "lose" our salvation.

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Blinded to what? I know the teaching of Calvin. I like to call it random selection. God selects some for heaven and some for hell. That's what it is rather you want to admit it or not that's what his teaching is.

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No silly, blinded to the fact that we never disagreed on that verse. Blinded to the fact that I have explained that before, and you act like you just now figured out that we didn’t disagree…

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What's my bias?

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It’s almost like you are just incapable of understanding any the things that I say to you…
If I said 2+2=4 , you seem to see it as me saying “elephants are purple” … There is just no connection here... Sorry... I tried to be as clear as I could...

Redstone,

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Your thought that God desires all men to be saved denies the clear Catholic teachings of Aquinas
________________________________________


Incorrect. But please show us.

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Well, I know this is at least the third time that I have quoted this to you…
From the Summa, Aquinas says:

Reply to Objection 1. God loves all men and all creatures, inasmuch as He wishes them all some good; but He does not wish every good to them all. So far, therefore, as He does not wish this particular good--namely, eternal life--He is said to hate or reprobated them.

Your position is entirely at cross purposes with his position here.

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and your claim that there is no order of things in salvation denies the scriptures.
________________________________________


Except that's not what I claimed.

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Well you said it right here: “Yet there is no fixed order in how God applies salvation to His people”

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Do you contend that the thief on the cross "followed" the same formula and order you are laying out as an 85 year old long-time Christian?

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You mean that he was elected, predestined, called, regenerated, converted, adopted, sanctified, then glorified? I sure do.

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Perhaps God simply rewarded his choice, his faith, with supernatural, undeserved Graces in those moments of death.

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Well, here you go again speaking of some kind of system of human merit that the scriptures know nothing of.

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Ordo Salutis, "the order of salvaion", a set of ordered "stages" through which each individual passes to heaven, sounds nice and tidy in Calvinist conversations, but it assumes way too much - beginning with the assumption authors use terms like justification in univocal senses. But do they really use the same words in the same way all the time? And let's assume they do. There would STILL be intense arguments over the nature of our salvation - because the Bible isn't clear on this point. It just isn't. That's why "Bible" churches split. Baptist ones too. And on and on.

Take Romans 6:7. Paul uses the word "justify" in a way that overlaps with "sanctify." What does he say in the Greek? Is there really overlap? What do the terms mean in the context of other verses and the oral traditions of the Apostles passed to early Christians?

Trying to work out a detailed scheme of salvation is a bit pointless because God did not give us a clear map. Its a mystery. We are saved by the Graces of Christ received in faith. Let's follow the Greatest Commandment and not live as if we are trying to find out if we can "lose" our salvation.

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Well, now your beef seems to be with just with theology in general. Those who seek to understand the Word of God, the doctrines of the scriptures tend to try and explain them and articulate them as well as they can are called theologians. If your accusation is that we Calvinists seem to be rationalists to a fault, I can see how there is a tendency there to perhaps go overboard in trying to understand and describe things, even mysteries. I will say that this is kind of ironic coming from someone who adheres to the one religious group is to blame for more over defining than any other in all of history. That Rome was not content with mysteries of the sacraments, and felt so compelled to define things so much seems to be the log in your own eye here as compared to the speck in the Calvinists.

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Reply to Objection 1. God loves all men and all creatures, inasmuch as He wishes them all some good; but He does not wish every good to them all. So far, therefore, as He does not wish this particular good--namely, eternal life--He is said to hate or reprobated them.

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Says that God does not wish all men be saved where?

This is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.” - 1 Tim 2: 3, 4

Second, I was referring to the Calvinist ordering of 1,2,3...this then this then this. What do we know? God's Grace, our faith, our works that make our faith "alive" - these are profound, unknowable mysteries while we are on Earth.

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You mean that he was elected, predestined, called, regenerated, converted, adopted, sanctified, then glorified? I sure do.

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So everyone follows the Calvinist ordering. Okay. But once you guys agree among yourselves what exactly comes when in this formula, be sure to let the rest of the world know.

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Well, here you go again speaking of some kind of system of human merit that the scriptures know nothing of.

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System?? "undeserved Graces" that are profound mysteries of faith? I'm not the one listing out x and y and then z applicable to all people across all time and situations.

And I don't understand your point in the last paragraph. You will have to restate or clarify.

To restate my point, here is a typical listing of the Ordo Salutis from a Calvinist perspective, "in order":

election
predestination
outward call through hearing the gospel
inward call to respond to the gospel through God's grace
regeneration
conversion of faith & repentance
justification
sanctification
glorification

The trouble is trying to define WHAT EXACTLY happens in our salvation process. You will not find anywhere in the Catechism an attempt to spell it out. Its a mystery, a profoud one outside of the simple and beautiful statement of by grace are you saved through faith, and its a tragedy when churches split because they try to "nail it down."

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Says that God does not wish all men be saved where?

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Well, if you see a difference in Aquinas saying he doesn’t wish some eternal life, and He doesn’t wish some salvation, then I don’t know what to say… Salvation, and eternal life are seen as synonymous terms.

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This is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.” - 1 Tim 2: 3, 4

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Can’t this verse mean “all men everywhere”, meaning, not just Israelites, but Egyptians, and Chinese, and Americans, etc?

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Second, I was referring to the Calvinist ordering of 1,2,3...this then this then this. What do we know? God's Grace, our faith, our works that make our faith "alive" - these are profound, unknowable mysteries while we are on Earth.

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Well, the Romans 8 scripture lays out an order, does it not? How can we say it’s wrong to try and think that through from what other scriptures say?

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So everyone follows the Calvinist ordering. Okay. But once you guys agree among yourselves what exactly comes when in this formula, be sure to let the rest of the world know.

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It’s not a formula, it’s a description of some things that the scriptures describe that happen.

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And I don't understand your point in the last paragraph. You will have to restate or clarify.

To restate my point, here is a typical listing of the Ordo Salutis from a Calvinist perspective, "in order":

election
predestination
outward call through hearing the gospel
inward call to respond to the gospel through God's grace
regeneration
conversion of faith & repentance
justification
sanctification
glorification

The trouble is trying to define WHAT EXACTLY happens in our salvation process. You will not find anywhere in the Catechism an attempt to spell it out. Its a mystery, a profoud one outside of the simple and beautiful statement of by grace are you saved through faith, and its a tragedy when churches split because they try to "nail it down."

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No one is trying to state what happens in things in that list like ‘regeneration” , or “justification” that is not simply exegeting exactly what scripture defines those things as. There is your flaw in saying that it goes too far in defining.



Take for example these from the Westminster Shorter Catechism:
Q. 31. What is effectual calling?
A. Effectual calling is the work of God’s Spirit, whereby, convincing us of our sin and misery, enlightening our minds in the knowledge of Christ,[86] and renewing our wills,[87] he doth persuade and enable us to embrace Jesus Christ,[88] freely offered to us in the gospel.[89]

[86] Acts 26:18. To open their eyes, and to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan unto God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins, and inheritance among them which are sanctified by faith that is in me. 1 Corinthians 2:10, 12. But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God.... Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God. 2 Corinthians 4:6. For God, who commanded the light to shine out of darkness, hath shined in our hearts, to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ. Ephesians 1:17-18. That the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give unto you the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of him: The eyes of your understanding being enlightened; that ye may know what is the hope of his calling, and what the riches of the glory of his inheritance in the saints

[87] Deuteronomy 30:6. And the LORD thy God will circumcise thine heart, and the heart of thy seed, to love the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, that thou mayest live. Ezekiel 36:26-27. A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh. And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them. John 3:5. Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. Titus 3:5. Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost

[88] John 6:44-45. No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day. It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me. Acts 16:14. And a certain woman named Lydia, a seller of purple, of the city of Thyatira, which worshipped God, heard us: whose heart the Lord opened, that she attended unto the things which were spoken of Paul.

[89] Isaiah 45:22. Look unto me, and be ye saved, all the ends of the earth: for I am God, and there is none else. Matthew 11:28-30. Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest. Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls. For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light. Revelation 22:17. And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.


Or


Q. 35. What is sanctification?
A. Sanctification is the work of God’s free grace,[97] whereby we are renewed in the whole man after the image of God,[98] and are enabled more and more to die unto sin, and live unto righteousness.[99]

[97] Ezekiel 36:27. And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them. Philippians 2:13. For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure. 2 Thessalonians 2:13. But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth.

[98] 2 Corinthians 5:17. Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new. Ephesians 4:23-24. And be renewed in the spirit of your mind; And that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness. 1 Thessalonians 5:23. And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

[99] Ezekiel 36:25-27. Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you. A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh. And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them. Romans 6:4, 6, 12-14. Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.... Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.... Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof. Neither yield ye your members as instruments of unrighteousness unto sin: but yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness unto God. For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace. 2 Corinthians 7:1. Having therefore these promises, dearly beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God. 1 Peter 2:24. Who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree, that we, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness: by whose stripes ye were healed.


So, it can not be overdefining to rely on scritprue to define one's doctreins, can it?

If it isn't clear that Aquinas is referring to those who rejected God, and that 1 Timothy teaches God desires all men come to know Him, then I don't know what to say. BTW, go ahead and post the link to that entire chapter from the Doctor of the Church.

quote:

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Well, the Romans 8 scripture lays out an order, does it not? How can we say it’s wrong to try and think that through from what other scriptures say?

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YOU think its clear that Romans 8 lays the salvation process. Great! Its figured out. The trouble is, YOU are very likely a minority, certainly among Protestants and possibly among Calvinists. Or is there something close to agreement? Why, then, would churches split over the nature of our salvation, especially "once saved always saved" ?

quote:

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So, it can not be overdefining to rely on scritprue to define one's doctreins, can it?

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Please restate. I don't understand the question.

My whole point is that Scripture needs interpretation, and individual interpretation leads to the Holy Spirit "telling" different people different things.

Notafraid - I'm sorry I haven't had a chance to answer yet. I have not forgotten. I will as soon as work and family allows. I need to do a bunch of catching up and hope to reply later this evening.

BTW - may I say I appreciate the tone in your last response to me. Very civil although there is disagreement. These are the kinds of discussions that good can come from and folks not get angry.

How would y'all interpret the exact meaning what I am trying to imply in the following sentence?


I never meant to say that you were dishonest.

a. But she did
b. What I did mean to say was that you were less than truthful.
c. But I sure thought it.
d. But I did mean to say that your wife was.

Bottom line is that you can't properly interpret this on your own without me telling you what I was trying to get across...

What about "in truth I perceive God is no respector of persons" - Acts 10:34

Wouldn't God be a respector of persons if our free will was taken away?

Redstone,

quote:

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If it isn't clear that Aquinas is referring to those who rejected God, and that 1 Timothy teaches God desires all men come to know Him, then I don't know what to say. BTW, go ahead and post the link to that entire chapter from the Doctor of the Church.

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Well, God is the sovereign, not man. If a man comes to God, it’s because God meant for it to be. If a man rejects God, it’s because God meant for it to be. You act like God is just there powerless to do anything, and He keeps wishing, and man, and mans puny will are the things in control.
Aquinas would know nothing of your view of any of what you just said. That they reject God is because God willed to allow them to perish of their own devices.
http://www.newadvent.org/summa/102303.htm

quote:

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YOU think its clear that Romans 8 lays the salvation process. Great! Its figured out. The trouble is, YOU are very likely a minority, certainly among Protestants and possibly among Calvinists. Or is there something close to agreement? Why, then, would churches split over the nature of our salvation, especially "once saved always saved" ?

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Well, I wouldn’t say that it is exhaustive but yes, it does.. As far as churches splitting, or once saved always saved. I don’t know those kind of people like you do. I know that kind of divisiveness seems to follow the character of certain types of people. Certain types of people tend to gravitate towards certain types of humanistic versions of Christianity, and those tend to split, and be divisive, and have wacky doctrine, and bear bitter fruit. So the problem is not with God’s Word, or His ways, but it is with man. I know you have a personal issue in your life with divisiveness, and such, but I would suggest to you that it is not the fact that men are free to have a wrong opinion within Protestantism, and the free societies that we prots have created, but the problem lies with the men themselves. RCism is not a utopia. There is not one this side of heaven, so you should stop lashing out at Protestantism as if it’s the problem. The defect is in mankind.

Redstone,

quote:

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Please restate. I don't understand the question.

My whole point is that Scripture needs interpretation, and individual interpretation leads to the Holy Spirit "telling" different people different things.

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But here is the problem. The fact that you claim RCism is the place of unity/uniformity is something I don’t believe is true, but aside from that, unity/uniformity does not equal truth. If you HAD the truth I would come over to that side, but you DON’T. That is the problem. Truth is the biggest deal here. Again with the individual interpretation thing, well, I tell you again, I don’t condone it, and it’s not taught within our church that a mans private interpretations are to be considered a source of revelation, or that people are free to go maverick and teach outside of the doctrinal standard of our church, so you are preaching to the choir with that one.

CenTexHornsFan,

I understand. Take your time, there are plenty of posts to keep me busy…

If you want a good response from me, you should keep it a little on the short side anyway, that way I can respond in detail…










AgPilot98,

quote:

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What about "in truth I perceive God is no respector of persons" - Acts 10:34

Wouldn't God be a respector of persons if our free will was taken away?

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The fact is that God chooses to save people because of something in Him, not something in or about them. He has chosen according to His will what He will do, so he is not respecting them in doing so, He is having mercy upon them for his own glory. Now if He foresaw that they would make good decisions, or if He saw them choosing Him, as some people teach, then elected them based on that, well then in that case He would be a respecter of persons.


[This message has been edited by Notafraid (edited 5/3/2006 10:15a).]

If you define your god as omnipotent and allknowing, then it would know all of the future decisions that it's creation (you) will make before it creates (you). The decision to create (or not create) is entirely in the hands of the creator with the knowledge of every minute decision already predestined. the illusion of free will is trumped by this deity's forehand knowledge and its decision to create.

Unless, of course, your god is not omnipotnent and allknwoing.

Muster,

Good point. The only way it works out is if God knows every second.

OK because God knows what I will do he makes me do it?

I know my wife won't eat onions. Am I making her not eat onions?

Are you an omnipotent allknowing god who created your wife?