An allknowing god would have known when he created you that you would not make your wife eat onions.

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OK because God knows what I will do he makes me do it?

I know my wife won't eat onions. Am I making her not eat onions?

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If you had created your wife so that she was repelled by onions, then you would be said to have a hand in it (even soverign), would you not?

Genesis 50:20 "As for you, you meant evil against me, but God meant it for good in order to bring about this present result, to preserve many people alive.

This verse is man freely choosing evil, yet God was sovereign over the whole thing, meaning it for Good.


[This message has been edited by Notafraid (edited 5/3/2006 1:48p).]

I must be truly evil now, because I am finding myself arguing on the same side as muster ag!

Preach it muster! You finally found some truth!

Well I must be -- I know she won't eat onions, and therefore I take away her free will to choose onions or not.

God is sovereign - are you biased? I've always agreed with that. Maybe you are biased toward other things as well...

You do have some power over what your wife chooses, but nothing compared to an omnipotent and allknowing "creator" god would have. Ironically, all of your onion/no onion interactions would have been known this deity before it created you both.

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I must be truly evil now, because I am finding myself arguing on the same side as muster ag!

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Sign of the apocalypse???

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Well I must be -- I know she won't eat onions, and therefore I take away her free will to choose onions or not.

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This doesn’t even make sense. The fact is that it is not an absolute impossibility that she won’t eat onions, but just a conditional impossibility. It does not do away with her liberty of choice. She is free to do whatever she desires! There is the rub. People only do what they desire to do. Are you free to chop your arm off right now? Technically you are, but in reality, you so loath the thought of it that you will, can not do it. So does that mean that your freedom of choice to chop your arm off has been removed from you? No. So if I were to say that it is God’s plan that you not chop your arm off, then that would be true. God is free to use whatever means to accomplish His providence, including appealing to our reason, or letting our natural conditions and desires rule us to a certain end. Again, if you could look for a moment beyond your own human choices at the possibility that there might be a bigger hand out there than your own.

I want to desire God tell me how to desire God.

77,

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I want to desire God tell me how to desire God.

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Ok, ask God to cause you desire Him more.

Well I have to ask God, who I can't desire unless he allows me, to let me desire him? I don't have a desire for God, but I want it. How do I get it?

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Well I have to ask God, who I can't desire unless he allows me, to let me desire him? I don't have a desire for God, but I want it. How do I get it?

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Well, look, if you have no desire for God, what do you want me to say? Reprogram your heart. Change your desires!? You can’t do that! What do you want to do, grit your teeth and pretend like you desire him? Only God can give you a heart to believe! So, if you are not willing to come to Him, then pray and ask Him to make you willing.

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it’s a hard doctrine to believe, because it grates against the pride of man.

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That's like the equivalent of "other camps" claiming that free will is a hard doctrine for Calvinsts to accept, because they are too insecure to make decisions for themselves.

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That's like the equivalent of "other camps" claiming that free will is a hard doctrine for Calvinists to accept, because they are too insecure to make decisions for themselves.

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Ha! Well, I know form experience that it’s a pride thing, because that’s what it was with me, and I have talked with others who were formerly Arminian, and they also said the same. I have never heard the claim you made there made by anyone before, and so although that doesn’t necessarily prove anything, that fact also doesn’t mean that it’s not a silly suggestion.

I don't think it's a silly suggestion. I'm aware of people who made the leap to Calvinism and said what held them up was pride. It pretty much follows from your beliefs as I understand them, and I wouldn't call all those beliefs silly either.

I don't think it's conductive to a discussion on free will, tho, because the converse could just as easily be said. Personal anecdotal evidence is fine as an example, but it should still be seen as what it is; anecdotal evidence is still anecdotal. So, I think it would be irrational to draw an inductive conclusion from that type of evidence.

So I'm supposed to pray to a God I don't desire, and ask him to allow me to desire him? Why would I do that?

77,

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So I'm supposed to pray to a God I don't desire, and ask him to allow me to desire him? Why would I do that?

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No, I wouldn’t just ask Him to allow you. I would ask Him to cause you to desire Him. The reason you would do that, is because you said you wanted a desire for Him here: “I don't have a desire for God, but I want it. How do I get it?” .

And Catholics are supposed to be tied up in a "system."

Grace, Faith, Good Works - these are inseperable. We do not "earn" our salvation - God grants it through His Grace. We are called to carry our cross daily, following the example of Christ. Our salvation is undeserved, and its process, like the Grace, is a mystery we cannot comprehend.

Why would I want to desire him? Could I have heard his word being preached? How do I get faith again?

77 - You would want to desire him so that your immortal soul doesn't wind up in hell 50 years from now...

77,

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Why would I want to desire him? Could I have heard his word being preached? How do I get faith again?

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As to why? I can only think that the Lord put that in your heart. As to faith. Faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the Word of God.

But we do not control the effectualness of the Word. That is by the Spirit.

John 6:63The Spirit gives life; the flesh counts for nothing. The words I have spoken to you are spirit and they are life….65He went on to say, "This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless the Father has enabled him."

And

John 3:6Flesh gives birth to flesh, but the Spirit gives birth to spirit. 7You should not be surprised at my saying, 'You must be born again.' 8The wind blows wherever it pleases. You hear its sound, but you cannot tell where it comes from or where it is going. So it is with everyone born of the Spirit."

And

1 Corinthians 3:6 I planted the seed, Apollos watered it, but God made it grow.

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You would want to desire him so that your immortal soul doesn't wind up in hell 50 years from now...

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Many find Jesus useful, but only those born of the spirit find him beautiful.

"The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us, NOT WILLING THAT ANY SHOULD PERISH (except the ones he predestined to perish), but that all should come to repentance." II Pet. 3:9

What's wrong with this verse? It's the area in the parenthesis. Doesn't fit in with the description and nature of God.

No need to preach the great commision - Matt. 28:18-20, people do not have a choice whether or not to accept the message.

Passage already mentioned by 77 I think, but worthy of resurface...

"Choose you this day whom you will serve" - Joshua 24:15

Come on, this is clearly pointed out in scripture that God allows personal choices. Just because he knows the decisions we are going to make, doesn't mean he MAKES us make those choices.

If I told you jump off a bridge, but I wasn't holding a gun to you or forcing you to do that, would you do it? It would be your choice.

God does not select people he "likes" better than others... that really is a very silly concept according to the nature of the God we read about in the Bible.

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The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us, NOT WILLING THAT ANY SHOULD PERISH (except the ones he predestined to perish), but that all should come to repentance." II Pet. 3:9

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I agree that God is ready to receive and save all the lost. I agree that His desire in the Gospel is that none perish, but my question to you is: If God wishes none to perish, why is it that so many do perish?

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What's wrong with this verse? It's the area in the parenthesis. Doesn't fit in with the description and nature of God.

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I think it does fine, but that you just haven’t thought these things through all the way.

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No need to preach the great commision - Matt. 28:18-20, people do not have a choice whether or not to accept the message.

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But the scriptures don’t teach fatalism. He has not only ordained who will come to Him, but How. Faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the Word of God. We are not called to be successful or guess who will believe His message, but Just to be faithful to preach the Word. Perhaps you should study the Great Awakening. All of those pastors were what you would call Calvinists, and yet they preached the Word, and many souls were saved at that time.

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Passage already mentioned by 77 I think, but worthy of resurface...

"Choose you this day whom you will serve" - Joshua 24:15

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So, do you think that I am saying that God is denying the liberty of choice to mankind? I am not, and have not. I have actually gone into great detail of this, if you had taken time to read what I have written here…

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Come on, this is clearly pointed out in scripture that God allows personal choices. Just because he knows the decisions we are going to make, doesn't mean he MAKES us make those choices.

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I agree. God does not coerce or force the will.

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God does not select people he "likes" better than others... that really is a very silly concept according to the nature of the God we read about in the Bible.

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I agree, He chooses to set His love upon them to save them. Not that He just likes them. God chooses us.

Ephesians 1:4 just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we would be holy and blameless before Him In love

1 John 4:10 In this is love, not that we loved God, but that He loved us and sent His Son to be the propitiation for our sins.


[This message has been edited by Notafraid (edited 5/4/2006 4:29p).]