Matthew 23:37

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37 “O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the one who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you were not willing!

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Matthew 23:37“O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the one who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you were not willing!

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This verse speaks nothing of the ability of the will of natural man. You assume it. In fact, it confirms that man is not willing, but kills the prophets, and stones those who are sent to her. Though God condescended to gentle and even maternal kindness towards this nation. These verses actually speak of the disgrace on this wicked nation, which had treated with disdain the kind and gentle invitations of the Lord. That God makes a general offer though only a remnant will accept it is the common theme of the scriptures.

What would really be good is if you could actually find a verse, or verses that you cloud exegete, that actually say that “natural man is able to come to God” or “Man’s will is not at such enmity with God that he can not come to God of His own power” or “God is leaving the final decision for salvation up to the determination of man, and the will of man”, or some other type of teaching that expresses what you wish us to beleive. But your problem is, where the bible actually teaches on these subjects, that it says the opposite.

That man can not come to God unless God enables Him.

John 6:65He went on to say, "This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless the Father has enabled him."

That natural man does not accept the things of God.

1Cor 2:14 But a natural man does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually appraised.

That God is not leaving the determining factor in salvation ultimately up to the will and actions of man.

Rom 9:16 So then it does not depend on the man who wills or the man who runs, but on God who has mercy.

We do not find your doctrines actually taught in the scriptures, but you simply read them into certain texts, making certain assumptions about them. Your argument is therefore not from the scripture, but it is more of a philosophical argument of what you think it takes for man to be accountable before God.




[This message has been edited by Notafraid (edited 5/1/2006 12:08p).]

God made me post this:

Josh 24:15 -- choose for yourselves today whom you will serve...

And God hardened Pharoh's heart. yer point?

oh and perhaps we should put this discussion in terms of space/time?

WE use terms like before and after when it comes to salvation. (i.e. Before I was saved, I ...).

What exactly is before and after to a God who is timeless, whos existence is infinite?

this free will/predestination stuff gives me a headache, because we argue from a man centered frame of reference. yes, BOTH SIDES argue from this man centered frame of reference.

vt

Is the bible from man or God?

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God made me post this:

Josh 24:15 -- choose for yourselves today whom you will serve...

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Two things. First: the fact that you still pretend as if my position is that God makes people do things shows what a dishonest observer you have been all this time. No mater how many times the truth is explained to you.

Second: That God calls man to choose, or to repent, does not mean that all people have the ability to repent. Your own actions that I pointed out up above are a great example. You are unable to believe the truth because you freely choose to reject the truth for a lie. So it is with natural man. He freely chooses to reject God.


[This message has been edited by Notafraid (edited 5/1/2006 12:38p).]

VT2,

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And God hardened Pharoh's heart.

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I would say that God hardened pharaohs heart just by being God, and coming near to Pharaoh. Have you ever seen how the unregenerate will protest more and more, and their rage become more prominent the more clear the gospel or the truth of God is pressed in upon them? As man seeks his own wisdom, his own glory, his own truth, his own way, his own will being done, the one who is greater that comes, to whom all of those things belong enrages natural man. This is how it is that God hardens Pharaohs heart, yet Pharaoh is responsible for hardening of His own heart.


[This message has been edited by Notafraid (edited 5/1/2006 12:37p).]

CTHF, I really don't get the jest of your post.

God made me reject your above post by posting this:

Philem 14 -- without your consent I did not want to do anything, so that your goodness would not be, in effect, by compulsion but of your own free will.

UH-OH...


[This message has been edited by 77 (edited 5/1/2006 12:40p).]

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de me reject your above post by posting this:

Philem 14 -- without your consent I did not want to do anything, so that your goodness would not be, in effect, by compulsion but of your own free will.

UH-OH...

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This is no UH-OH. As I have stated all along. Man freely rejects God. This does not mean that man is free to be autonomous, and just do anything he likes. He must still operate within the confines of the creature he is. Again, you are not free to jump over your house right now. You are also apparently not able to believe the truth about what I have been saying, even though I have explained it clearly enough to you many times over the past few years. It is a heart issue with you. You are just not open to the truth of what I am saying. You are not even able to believe and explain my position on things. This is how it is said that man is unable to do things. He is unable to do what his heart is hardened against.

Here is a great example:

Genesis 37:4 His brothers saw that their father loved him more than all his brothers; and so they hated him and could not speak to him on friendly terms.

We see how they couldn’t do something. Were they free to speak kindly to Him? Yes technically, but could they? No. So out of their own freewill they hated Him… They couldn’t help but hate him.

Yet look here… See how god was sovereign over the whole thing?

Genesis 50:20 "As for you, you meant evil against me, but God meant it for good in order to bring about this present result, to preserve many people alive.

So, the bible teaches that people freely choose things, are responsible for their decisions, but God is ultimately sovereign over it all… So, let’s ask Joseph’s brothers “Choose this day, for or against Joseph”… And so, that very question came upon them in the form of the opportunity to rid themselves of him, and they freely chose evil, yet it was all a part of the Lord's larger plan.



[This message has been edited by Notafraid (edited 5/1/2006 1:51p).]

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He freely chooses to reject God.

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Just as he can freely choose to obey God's will.

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Have you ever seen how the unregenerate will protest more and more, and their rage become more prominent the more clear the gospel or the truth of God is pressed in upon them? As man seeks his own wisdom, his own glory, his own truth, his own way, his own will being done, the one who is greater that comes, to whom all of those things belong enrages natural man. This is how it is that God hardens Pharaohs heart, yet Pharaoh is responsible for hardening of His own heart.

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a salient point! indeed, as the Truth found in the Word approaches the unregenerate, the clearer the divide.

However, the free will argument is what it is: Man centered salvation. I will not take part in a man centered salvation argument. Know why I'm saved and regenerated? Because God had mercy on me a sinner. Did He predestine this occurrence? perhaps He did. But regardless, He showed mercy to me, a sinner. That's all I'm willing to say about the God and His motive in salvation.

CenTexHornsFan,

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Just as he can freely choose to obey God's will.

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The bible teaches that the unregenerate will not come to Him or to repent. He can not freely obey the call to Christ unless enabled, unless he is given eyes to see, the things of God (spiritual things) are foolishness to him.
(See the verses I posted to you above)

Man is repelled by things he considers foolish, is He not? So can you freely choose to purposely grab a hammer and smash your toe? Sure you are free to, but can you bring yourself to do it? No, it is foolishness to you. So, the cross is foolishness to the natural man, therefore he can not come to christ unless he is enabled/enlightened/given a heart to beleive.

A man's ideas about what is foolish and what is not foolish can change, can they not? That is why we are to teach people. Rarely does one understand God's plan of salvation after a one-time Bible study.

Most will never change. A few will.

If we love God we will keep His commandments. ALL of His commandments.

We cannot save ourselves but we do have culpability for not obeying His commands.

Because we are human we err from time to time and because of His grace and mercy we can be forgiven if we repent and turn from that error. If we do not he is NOT going to forgive us.

[This message has been edited by CenTexHornsFan (edited 5/1/2006 3:31p).]

Parable of the Sower????

Lets see what the bible has to say about how we may come to God:

Rom 10:13-17 -- WHOEVER WILL CALL ON THE NAME OF THE LORD WILL BE SAVED." 14 How then will they call on Him in whom they have not believed? How will they believe in Him whom they have not heard? And how will they hear without a preacher? 15 How will they preach unless they are sent? Just as it is written, "HOW BEAUTIFUL ARE THE FEET OF THOSE WHO BRING GOOD NEWS OF GOOD THINGS!" 16 However, they did not all heed the good news; for Isaiah says, "LORD, WHO HAS BELIEVED OUR REPORT?" 17 So faith comes {{HOW}} from hearing, and hearing by {{WHAT}}the word of Christ.

YES: Preacher - hear - believe....
NO: Believe - Preacher - Hear...

And again...

2 Thess 2:14 -- He called you {{HOW}} through our gospel...

YES: Gospel - Calls
NO: Called - Now I go to Gospel...

Revelation 3:19-21

19 As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten. Therefore be zealous and repent. 20 Behold, I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears My voice and opens the door, I will come in to him and dine with him, and he with Me. 21 To him who overcomes I will grant to sit with Me on My throne, as I also overcame and sat down with My Father on His throne.

Matthew 7:7-14

7 “Ask, and it will be given to you; seek, and you will find; knock, and it will be opened to you. 8 For everyone who asks receives, and he who seeks finds, and to him who knocks it will be opened. 9 Or what man is there among you who, if his son asks for bread, will give him a stone? 10 Or if he asks for a fish, will he give him a serpent? 11 If you then, being evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father who is in heaven give good things to those who ask Him! 12 Therefore, whatever you want men to do to you, do also to them, for this is the Law and the Prophets.

13 “Enter by the narrow gate; for wide is the gate and broad is the way that leads to destruction, and there are many who go in by it. 14 Because narrow is the gate and difficult is the way which leads to life, and there are few who find it.

All actions we must take for God to grant us His salvation. ANYONE CAN access. Few choose to.

Of course man has free will. How else did Adam and Eve choose to sin if they didn't have free will? And we also have the verse below which nukes any assumptions that man does not have free will....

Deuteronomy, chapter 30:19: I call heaven and earth to witness against you this day, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and curse; therefore choose life, that you and your descendants may live,

CenTexHornsFan:

very one-sided of you. I can play the same game, 'partna'.

My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all, and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father's hand. John 10:29

vt

As has been pointed out. If you define your god as being omnipotent and allknowing, then free-will is just an illusion.

CTHF,

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A man's ideas about what is foolish and what is not foolish can change, can they not? That is why we are to teach people. Rarely does one understand God's plan of salvation after a one-time Bible study.

Most will never change. A few will.

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Amazing! And right after I had just showed you what the bible says about it…

1Cor 1:14 But a natural man does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually appraised.

Why not believe the scriptures?. You seem to want to just make things up according to what seems right to you…

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If we love God we will keep His commandments. ALL of His commandments.

We cannot save ourselves but we do have culpability for not obeying His commands.

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Yes, but you seem to have shifted from talking about natural unregenerate man, to believers who have been united with Christ, have the holy spirit operating in them etc, without even recognizing any difference in the way they might see things, or understand, or their ability…

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Because we are human we err from time to time and because of His grace and mercy we can be forgiven if we repent and turn from that error. If we do not he is NOT going to forgive us.

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Well the scriptures say that He is even the one who grants that we repent!

Acts 11:18 When they heard this, they had no further objections and praised God, saying, "So then, God has granted even the Gentiles repentance unto life."


[This message has been edited by Notafraid (edited 5/1/2006 5:14p).]

77,

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Parable of the Sower????

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The condition of the heart was the deciding factor in the seed bearing fruit that lasted. This is why the scriptures teach that God must give us a new heart, turning the stony heart into a heart of flesh…

77,

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Lets see what the bible has to say about how we may come to God:

Rom 10:13-17 -- WHOEVER WILL CALL ON THE NAME OF THE LORD WILL BE SAVED." 14 How then will they call on Him in whom they have not believed? How will they believe in Him whom they have not heard? And how will they hear without a preacher? 15 How will they preach unless they are sent? Just as it is written, "HOW BEAUTIFUL ARE THE FEET OF THOSE WHO BRING GOOD NEWS OF GOOD THINGS!" 16 However, they did not all heed the good news; for Isaiah says, "LORD, WHO HAS BELIEVED OUR REPORT?" 17 So faith comes {{HOW}} from hearing, and hearing by {{WHAT}}the word of Christ.

YES: Preacher - hear - believe....
NO: Believe - Preacher - Hear...

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Yes but the argument is over ability, not HOW we come to Him. People who the Lord saves are those who believe, and call on his name, but can one believe in Christ who hates Christ? Therefore just as Josephs brothers were at enmity with him, and could not even speak a kind word, so the natural man, the man of flesh can not obey the call of the gospel…

Romans 8:6 The mind of sinful man is death, but the mind controlled by the Spirit is life and peace; 7the sinful mind is hostile to God. It does not submit to God's law, nor can it do so. 8Those controlled by the sinful nature cannot please God.

Notice the inability to submit to God! So, what does that say about the persons ability to come to God in the way the verse you mentioned? You see, you can not find verses that support your position when it speaks of natural mans ability, so you just assume it into verses…

CenTex

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Revelation 3:19-21

19 As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten. Therefore be zealous and repent. 20 Behold, I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears My voice and opens the door, I will come in to him and dine with him, and he with Me. 21 To him who overcomes I will grant to sit with Me on My throne, as I also overcame and sat down with My Father on His throne.

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Who hears His voice but those who have been given ears to hear? Only eyes and ears that have been blessed to see and hear will do so…

Matthew 13:16 But blessed are your eyes because they see, and your ears because they hear.

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. ANYONE CAN access. Few choose to.

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Again you assume a natural ability…

Texasag,

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Of course man has free will. How else did Adam and Eve choose to sin if they didn't have free will? And we also have the verse below which nukes any assumptions that man does not have free will....

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You discredit Catholic theology again. You pretend that there is no difference in mans ability or desires before the fall, after the fall, or after regeneration… To you they all seem the same…

Muster,

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As has been pointed out. If you define your god as being omnipotent and allknowing, then free-will is just an illusion.

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Autonomous Free Will is an illusion…

Boy -- you ripped Romans 8:6 out of the context of its own sentence!!! Read the whole passage. We are in the Spirit if the Spirit of God/Christ (next verse tells us that) dwells in us. How does he dwell in us? Through faith (Eph 3:17). How does faith come? By hearing the word of God (Rom 10:16).

God controlling our actions like a puppet is an illusion...

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You seem to want to just make things up according to what seems right to you…

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Quite the contrary. I have submitted scripture now and in posts before that you could not refute. When that happens you turn to posts that seem to be full of anger and hate and seem as far from a theological discussion as anyone on this board.

Take the ENTIRE New Testament and leave the books written by man that you so often turn to and study with an open and honest heart.

77, I enjoy reading your posts. I agree with your points on this topic.

77 Fan Club


Free moral agents all the way

77,

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Boy -- you ripped Romans 8:6 out of the context of its own sentence!!! Read the whole passage. We are in the Spirit if the Spirit of God/Christ (next verse tells us that) dwells in us. How does he dwell in us? Through faith (Eph 3:17). How does faith come? By hearing the word of God (Rom 10:16).

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Yes, so what’s your point?

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God controlling our actions like a puppet is an illusion...

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I agree, which is why I have never said that God controls our actions like a puppet. You don’t seem capable of dealing with what I actually DO say, so it is interesting to see how you continually present my position in straw man form.

The reality is, many of you will read these verses and rationalize them away or overlook them altogether. I know, because I did the same thing my whole life, because that is what you do when you grow up in a modern Baptist church (I'll only speak for Baptists because I grew up one). I still attend a Baptist church, but this one mirrors the original teachings of the Baptist church (and the teachings of the early catholic church) and not the "salvation is all about me" Baptist churches of today. I challenge you to put aside your predispositions for one month and simply read the New Testament as if God is sovereign, even in the salvation of man. The verses will fly off the page and hit you in the face. God's election is everywhere in scripture.

I never wanted to believe that God chose his own. The thought appalled me. That would mean I was a robot, and evangelism was useless, and what about the Aborigines, etc... I was set to prove that doctrine false. The only reason I even considered it was because I highly respected someone who believed it and thought I owed it to him and myself to not be intellectually lazy and just dismiss it. But it is scripture, and it is beautiful. God's grace. It truly is grace. I didn't deserve it, nor does anyone else, but He gives it nonetheless.

Below are only a few of many, many, many verses that talk about God's election. I didn't even touch on Romans, which could have been titled "The Elect That Didn't Deserve It"

Rather than simply immediately trying to find other verses that prove your point to counter these, why not objectively study these first? If not election, then what did these verses mean?

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John 6:44"No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him, and I will raise him up at the last day.

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By the way, the word "draw" is the same word used when they "dragged" Paul out to stone him

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John 8:43Why is my language not clear to you? Because you are unable to hear what I say.

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John 8:47He who belongs to God hears what God says. The reason you do not hear is that you do not belong to God."

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It was mentioned above that faith comes from hearing (I agree by the way), but you must be able to hear. Agreed?

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John 10:26but you do not believe because you are not my sheep.

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Ephesians 1:11In him we were also chosen,having been predestined according to the plan of him who works out everything in conformity with the purpose of his will,

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Ephesians 1:3 Like the rest, we were by nature objects of wrath. 4But because of his great love for us, God, who is rich in mercy, 5made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in transgressions—it is by grace you have been saved.

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Colossians 2:13When you were dead in your sins and in the uncircumcision of your sinful nature, God made you alive with Christ.

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I Thessalonians 1:4For we know, brothers loved by God, that he has chosen you, 5because our gospel came to you not simply with words, but also with power, with the Holy Spirit and with deep conviction.

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What if they weren't chosen? Does that mean that the gospel came to them, but without the power of the Holy Spirit or deep conviction? Who convicts and creates a need for repentance if not the Holy Spirit?

CenTexHornsFan,

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Quite the contrary. I have submitted scripture now and in posts before that you could not refute. When that happens you turn to posts that seem to be full of anger and hate and seem as far from a theological discussion as anyone on this board.

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Wow, 2 unsupported sweeping statements, and an ad hominem attack all at once!

The facts are that out of the 3 scriptures you posted on here on this thread , I have actually addressed every single one. However out of the 5 scriptures I posted, you have not answered a single one…

By all means if you have more scriptures to present then please do so.

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Take the ENTIRE New Testament and leave the books written by man that you so often turn to and study with an open and honest heart.

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It sounds like your advise here is for me to pull myself up by my spiritual bootstraps and turn over a new leaf… Well, have you been praying for me? As far as the scriptures go, you might pray that I would not think that I know them so much better than you. That I will be more humble. Since you are so into humanistic actions of the will and such, you might actually want to try and effectually answer scriptures that I post. That is you might want to if you are truly concerned that I reform in the way you say I should. You might also want to find out if I am actually really so submissive to the will of books over the scriptures, rather than just assuming it. Just some suggestions…

OSAg01,

I appreciate your mini-testimony there. I too was actually fairly appalled and somewhat frightened by the doctrine of election when I began to investigate it. It actually took me about 5 or 6 months of some real struggling with the Lord, and really just wrestling with Him. I recall just asking Him so many times, that I really needed to know: Is is true or not?

The thing was that we had just found the greatest church I had ever been exposed to, and it was a doctrine that they held to, and I thought that I really needed to know the answer to the for certain before we completely committed to the church. I argued with my brother about it many times on the phone, and I remember looking at certain verses, and being conflicted about it.

The crazy thing is, that I never really had taken a hard look at Romans 9. I had been studying many other places like some of the Ephesians verses, and John verses you posted. I recall it was in a Sunday School, and I am convinced that the Holy Spirit brought to mind a kind of “This is the answer you were looking for” kind of awareness. When my pastor taught about those 2 brothers, before they were ever born, the little bells went off. I was about 70% to 80% convinced at the time that election of some sort was true, but after that, I began to see that the doctrine of election and choosing actually permeates the scriptures. All of that was about 12 years ago now, although it seems like longer.

Anyway, I just thought I’d share my own little testimony about it. I really appreciate you, and the other reformed guys. I have been arguing these kinds of things here since 2001, (which also seems like it has been longer), and it’s always nice to get fresh perspectives. I know sometimes people have told me that they have appreciated my perspectives on some of these things, but for me, I really love to see other guys get out there and try to articulate some of this stuff, and even stretch themselves a little. Often times it really causes me to think, and it always encourages me!


Blessings!


[This message has been edited by Notafraid (edited 5/2/2006 12:29a).]

Notafraid,

I've noticed that this is a great topic for a R&P Board, but it is a very difficult topic among brothers and sisters you know. It is so divisive that it really forces you to be extremely careful when and how you bring it up. Many Christians, including myself at one time, really tie a lot of emotions to the doctrine of free will. I used to get mad at anyone that would think of bringing up "predestination" as a discussion topic, because in my mind, we had free will, end of discussion. Ofcourse we do have "free will" in the Jonathan Edwards sense, but not in the sense I once believed.

It's a difficult issue, because I truly believe it has given me such a greater understanding of the cohesiveness of scripture from the Old Covenant to the New and a much better appreciation for God's grace, but it divides believers. I won't even bring it up to most of my family (though I have a younger brother in college who has been a Calvinist all along though he doesn't like to be called one). I want so much for them to see how perfectly scripture fits together and how there is no need to explain things away, but how can I blame them for being hostile towards this scriptural doctrine, when I myself was hostile for so long.

I've also noticed that people who were saved as adults, who didn't grow up with the "Just as I am" and "I Surrender All" alter calls each week have a much easier time accepting that their salvation was not of their own, but that they were actually bought with a price, and God actually gave them eyes to see and ears to hear, and they were actually drawn by the Spirit, and they were actually dead in their transgressions until God breathed life into them, and that they are His sheep, and they actually are Israel, God's chosen people, true descendants of Abraham and therefore heirs to the promise, and that it truly is by GRACE that they have been saved.