Transcript of a speech Given at an LDS "Missionary Farewell"

6,370 Views | 121 Replies | Last: 19 yr ago by ibmagg
Guitarsoup
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At least you now admit to being a liar.

It is not a satire, when you try to pass off lies MULTIPLE TIMES as the truth and as history.

So whats new, a liar has justification for his lies. Does he apologize for the lie? Nope, he justifies it. Zero class, and zero character.

I didn't persue this because of my ancestor. I persued it because I have read and studied enough to know that you were making that up to discredit those that believe differently against you. I knew that this was a place I could nail you as the liar and the fraud that you are, so I fervently chased it.

If you thought that either Campbell would be disappointed for where and why I go to church, then you truly dont understand or know what either of them preached.


But thanks for admitting you are a liar and a hypocrite.
ibmagg
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Satire is not lying but that is your choice of words. You lie constantly about the character and motives of Joseph Smith and try to pass them off as fact when you know that they are simply your opinions. I knew that you would not care to hear the same rational used about your ancestory and boy was I right. You have squealed like a stuck pig!!

What troubles you, I am sure, is that you are an apostate from your ancestor's church. That is not my fault!
Guitarsoup
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quote:



Satire is not lying but that is your choice of words.


You were not using satire. You were lying about history to attack those that dont believe what you believe.

Satire is Weird Al Yankovich or Zoolander.

You posted a historical reference as fact, when you knew that you made it up. This is a lie used to discredit and attack the character of those that disagree with you. This is a truly atrocious act.

quote:
You lie constantly about the character and motives of Joseph Smith and try to pass them off as fact when you know that they are simply your opinions.

I have made it clear that it is my opinion that Smith. You were trying to make historical fact when there was none.

I do not lie, and when I am wrong and it is brought to my attention, I apologize for it.

You are a fraud, just as your hero Joseph Smith was. You will do anything - including lie, cheat and steal - to make sure that people listen and agree with you. This thread and many others attest to that.


quote:
I knew that you would not care to hear the same rational used about your ancestory and boy was I right.

I have formed my opinion of Joseph Smith using the testimony of his contemporaries, you try to lie to revise history to make Smith look better and others look worse. You are a liar and a hypocrite. You are a pharisee.

quote:
What troubles you, I am sure, is that you are an apostate from your ancestor's church. That is not my fault!


This doesnt trouble me in the least. I dont go to church for men, I go for God. The men behind it are insignificant, the Lord behind it is very significant. However, in your case, the men behind it are essential, because without Joseph Smith, there is no LDS.


You can no longer be trusted, because you are a known liar.

ibmagg
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Soupy -which contemporaries? How about those that where closest to him. How about his own works and words. At least you would have had a balanced view. I thought Alexander Campbell's church was "true" and if you didn't belong to it, you were going to hell. That is what my Church of Christ buddies maintained when I was in college. Now, I understand that many Church of Christ's don't subscribe to that point of view which is obviously your enlightened view. Methinks he doth protest too much!
Guitarsoup
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quote:
Soupy -which contemporaries? How about those that where closest to him. How about his own works and words. At least you would have had a balanced view.

Which opinions are you specifically upset about, and I can tell you what sources I used to draw my conclusions?

For my opinions on the death of Smith, I used John Taylor's account almost exclusively.

I draw many views from Smith's own works and words. Words like this:
quote:
Come on! ye prosecutors! ye false swearers! All hell, boil over! Ye burning mountains, roll down your lava! for I will come out on the top at last. I have more to boast of than ever any man had. I am the only man that has ever been able to keep a whole church together since the days of Adam. A large majority of the whole have stood by me. Neither Paul, John, Peter, nor Jesus ever did it. I boast that no man ever did such a work as I. The followers of Jesus ran away from Him; but the Latter-day Saints never ran away from me yet. You know my daily walk and conversation. I am in the bosom of a virtuous and good people. How I do love to hear the wolves howl! When they can get rid of me, the devil will also go. For the last three years I have a record of all my acts and proceedings, for I have kept several good, faithful, and efficient clerks in constant employ: they have accompanied me everywhere, and carefully kept my history, and they have written down what I have done, where I have been, and what I have said; therefore my enemies cannot charge me with any day, time, or place, but what I have written testimony to prove my actions; and my enemies cannot prove anything against me. They have got wonderful things in the land of Ham. I think the grand jury have strained at a gnat and swallowed the camel.


quote:
Be meek and lowly, upright and pure; render good for evil, If you bring on yourselves your own destruction, I will complain. It is not right for a man to bear down his neck to the oppressor always. Be humble and patient in all circumstances of life; we shall then triumph more gloriously. What a thing it is for a man to be accused of committing adultery, and having seven wives, when I can only find one.

Could he not find his other 30+ wives?
This was said on May 26, 1844.

http://www.familysearch.org/Eng/Search/AF/individual_record.asp?recid=7762167
It looks as though Smith lied here, as he did have multiple wives.

Is the current LDS true, or Smith's testimony that he only had one wife true?

I use Smith's own words, it doesnt seem to help much.


quote:
I thought Alexander Campbell's church was "true" and if you didn't belong to it, you were going to hell.

Where did Campbell say that?
Where the Bible speaks, we speak; where the Bible is silent, we are silent.
That saying is Campbell's most lasting legacy. A rejection of the man made traditions in order to get back to the meat and potatoes of the gospel.

quote:
That is what my Church of Christ buddies maintained when I was in college.

Many uninformed and misinformed people believe many things that are simply not true.

quote:
Now, I understand that many Church of Christ's don't subscribe to that point of view which is obviously your enlightened view.

Indeed.

quote:
Methinks he doth protest too much!

Many uninformed and misinformed people believe many things that are simply not true.
DualAG
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Ducking the shrapnel from the firefight between ibmagg and guaitarsoup . . .

quote:
ibmagg: What was interesting was that each sister was told to go home and to take it to the Lord if it was not the Lord's will. Each time they came back with answer that they had had it revealed to them that is was . . .


This somewhat hard to believe, given the fractional evidence that is available on plural marriage during the Missouri and Illinois periods of LDS history. Mormons did not openly proclaim the doctrine of plural marriage until after Brigham Young had taken them west, into what was then Mexican territory, where they felt safe enough admitting officially what just about everybody already knew was happening.

Fawn Brodie came up with evidence of 48 polygamous marriages for Joseph Smith; Mike Quinn lists 46. Todd Compton documents only 33 (with an additional 8 suspected), and the Encyclopedia of Mormonism will only admit to 27. Andrew Jensen, the official church historian of the late ninetheenth century, also compiled a list of 27, although possibly not the same 27, as early as 1877.

Some unions are extremely well documented, such as Compton's citation of the 11 instances in which Joseph married a woman already wed to another man. The presence of the first husband as a witness at some of those ceremonies, as recorded in temple records, seems to make the citations quite credible.

Other times, the only evidence is a civil divorce from Joseph; the marriage certificate cannot be found. Or, the only surviving evidence of the marriage exists in probate records--a woman is deemed to be a widow of Joseph by a court and awarded a portion of his estate.

Hence, I am a bit skeptical of the blanket statement that you made, that each and every one of the plural wives went home, prayed about it, and returned with divine confirmation. Do you have evidence, and if so can you cite a source, of each woman's witness? If we can't find a marriage certificate for each union, can you tell me with surety that each Mrs. Smith left a record affirming the Lord's blessing?

Or, is your statement based on a blanket declaration made by Joseph Smith or one of his apologists? If this is the case, your standard of evidence seems markedly lower than that relied upon by the authors I cited.

[This message has been edited by DualAG (edited 4/26/2006 8:30p).]
ibmagg
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Go on "www.Fair.org" and read the well researced article by Samuel Katich entitled: "A tale of Two Marriage Systems: Perspective on Polyandry and Joseph Smith". It has all the references concerning these women which are too long for me to post. A very thorough and enlightnening article.
Guitarsoup
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www.fairlds.org/pubs/polyandry.pdf
DualAG
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I must say that I'm encouraged by the progress we're making here. Without shouting at each other, as you and guitarsoup have, the net result of our exchange is to move you closer to reality regarding the history of your adopted faith.

On the third page of this thread, you asked:

quote:
Do you really believe that Joseph went around propositioning the wives of his followers and could have expected anyone to have remained with him?


I responded by citing reputable, peer-reviewed books published by well-known presses that make that point implicitly: Joseph Smith did indeed engage in polyandrous relationships with the married wives of other loyal Latter-day Saints.

You have now retrenched by referring me to a "scholarly" paper that admits as such--although it attempts to put a different spin on the conventional idea of polyandry. On the first page, for example, it says:

quote:
Joseph Smith was eternally married to what currently are argued to be between eight and eleven already married women. If we consider only those eight marriages that can be adequately documented, we find that the nature of the “marriages,” or eternal bonds, with Joseph had little effect during the mortal lives of these women. Similarly, the civil marriages of these women to their earthly husbands will have had little effect in the immortal lives that were to come for them.


Yesterday, you weren't willing to admit that Joseph Smith married other men's wives. Now you do, but cite a source that maintains that these marriage--although they occurred in the sacred Nauvoo temple--were somehow fundamentally different.

In other words, Joseph wasn't satisfying his overactive libido with the extraordinary power, unavailable to mere mortals, wielded by a prophet of God. He was instead doing something sacred by entering a form of platonic earthly relationship that would only come into full force once he and the sealed woman went to the Celestial Kingdom.

In other words, I won't screw you now, but I will in heaven.

I put the word "scholarly" in quotations marks because fair.org is an apologetic web site. It produces material with the same assumption that you take to this forum: that the LDS Church is absolutely true and its adherents must have access to scholarly sounding material to rebut attacks on the faith founded in the historical record.

Fair.org does not produce peer-reviewed essays that pass the test of soundness undergone by the authors of the books I've cited. Not once have I buttressed my arguments by citing overtly antagonistic sources penned either by pseudo scholars or by people who honestly make no claim of objectivity, e.g., the Utah Lighthouse Mission or the various ex-Mormon web sites. Nobody I quote wants you to quit your church and get "saved."

It's getting late in the evening, and I will put off a full analysis of the paper you referenced until the morning. I'll compare the author's claims with the record available to me, one researched by authors whose only agenda is to produce a respected nonfiction work that will stand up under scrupulous examination of its footnotes and bibliographic sources.

I get back to you in a couple of days with my findings.

[This message has been edited by DualAG (edited 4/27/2006 7:07a).]
ibmagg
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You will find that they are not marriages the way the world thinks of marriage.
DualAG
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Yes, I got that point already. That's not to say that I will agree with the author, nor that there isn't countervailing evidence out there that would disprove the author's thesis.
DualAG
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quote:
You will find that they are not marriages the way the world thinks of marriage.


Would the existence of a love child in at least one of these polyandrous marriages throw some cold water on the contention that Joseph married other men's wives for spiritual purposes only, and not to satisfy his very active libido?

From D. Michael Quinn's The Mormon Hierarchy: Origins of Power:

quote:
8 Feb. [1844]. Smith's only acknowledged polygamous child Josephine is born. Her mother Sylvia Sessions Lyon is legally married to Windsor P. Lyon which whom she is living, and so this is the first acknowledged polyandrous child (p. 642, note 8).


Quinn's note says that Joseph acknowledged paternity. It's quite a different approach from that of Samuel Katich, author of the apologetic article you referenced, who maintained that the lovechild learned the truth about her father at her mother's death bed--casting doubt about the identity of the father.

Such ambiguity is not unusual when one studies history. Scholars may look at the same set of documents and come to different conclusions, e.g, the number of women Joseph Smith married. What distinguishes the Katich article from more scholarly works, however, is its decided apologetic tack that tries to cover all of the bases. Just a few paragraphs later, the author pens a catchall disclaimer:

quote:
If there was an intimate dimension in every one of these particular marriages, it is ultimately a matter of no consequence as he 'could not commit adultery with wives who belonged to him'." (p. 6).


In other words, Katich seems to be saying, if you don't believe my contention that Joseph maintained only a spiritually based, plutonic relationship with these married women, then you should accept my fallback position: If indeed he had sex with them, it couldn't be adultery because Joseph Smith actually married them.

This is a classic tactic of religious apologists, one that set them apart from scholars such as Mike Quinn, Fawn Brodie, Jan Shipps, et al., who stake out defined positions and defend them. Apologists protect a front line until the facts render their position intellectually overmatched. Then they retreat to fallback positions.

Sometimes, their antagonists give up or change the subject, and then the apologist has won. Otherwise, the apologetic historian falls back on the ultimate defense. In this case, Joseph was a prophet of God and he was only marrying these other married women because he could provide a spiritual dimension that their disaffected or non-baptized husbands couldn't.

Some men wouldn't join the church or were not good members. Without Joseph's intervention, their wives would never enjoy the eternal benefits of being married to an exhausted husband. Other more worthy men were so unselfish that they were willing to allow their wives to be married to Joseph Smith in the eternity. In this way, their wives would remain with them for "time," but would be hitched to rising star in eternity.

The ultimate weakness of the typical apologetic article is its tendency to overreach. Katich falls into this trip. Not content to defend only the eight polyandrous marriages that he documents, he attempts to provide a true believer's cover for Joseph's other nefarious activities.

Observe the way Katich defends Joseph Smith when the Prophet proposed marriage to another man's wife, encountered resistance that he ultimately overcame, but decided not to carry out the sealing:

quote:
Joseph's requests were an Abrahamic test of individual willingness to submit to the Lord's will. Those who were willing to submit themselves at all costs were proven and strengthened in faith as well as received a much larger responsibility in terms of fulfilling the commandment to take plural wives (p. 2)


In other words, if a man ultimately said yes to Joseph's advance on his wife, whether or not Joseph subsequently married her, he would later be rewarded with permission to take multiple wives of his own. I contend that such a test had more extensive implications. Joseph Smith, a prophet of God, also controlled the temporal world of early 19th century Mormondom. If a man wanted a favorable business position, or a grant of desirable property, it all depended on his status in the church, i.e., his relationship with the Prophet, Seer, and Revelator.

Perhaps the luckiest men in Kirtland or Nauvoo were those devoted servants of the church who had older or homelier wives, unattractive to Joseph, but who maintained otherwise favored status with the Prophet. They could keep their wives, unmolested by his advances, and still prosper in Zion.

[This message has been edited by DualAG (edited 5/1/2006 9:52a).]
ibmagg
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To have a "*******" child would have required involment that didn't happen.
DualAG
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So says you. You're a true believer. But the author, who also represents himself as a believing Mormon, was doubtful enough that he included the disclaimer I cited.

ibmagg
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So many people cry for "proof"; where is yours? You are a non-believer thus prefer to assume the worst. Did you check the ages -some would be considered "old" for their day?

I find it of great interest that the people who knew Joseph Smith the best vouched with the greatest intensity for his character. John Taylor, the former Methodist Minister and who enjoyed the highest reputation, before joining the Church, and who was shot to peices with Joseph in the Cathage jail wrote several months later while recovering, that: "Joseph Smith, the Prophet and Seer of the Lord has done MORE, save Jesus only, for the salvation of men in this world than any who have ever lived in it." I could not concur more! John Taylor's writings and then his future enthusiastic and effective labors on behalf of the Church that Joseph organized, is not the reaction of a man who would have had any doubts what so ever concerning the character of Joseph. You should read closely the things that Brigham Young, and Wilford Woodruff also wrote and said about Joseph. They (and many others that knew him so well) would have never continued to put themselves through what they endured, if they would have had the slightest doubt concerning his character or prophetic calling. They traveled with him many times, stayed in his home frequently and knew him and his family very well. Go figure!
DualAG
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quote:
So many people cry for "proof"; where is yours? You are a non-believer thus prefer to assume the worst.


I cannot prove that Joseph Smith cohabited with his polyandrous wives. Sex is not a spectator sport.

However, as somebody stated in this thread, one cannot prove a negative. You can't prove Joseph Smith did not have marital relations with those he wed in the Nauvoo Temple. You're merely relying on the written testimony of his cohorts, his partners in crime so to speak, for evidence to uphold a rather ridiculous contention: That a man would marry a woman, not consummate the marriage, and then do so again and again--all the while maintaining his reputation and status as a revered religious leader.

Even the "scholarly" article you cited left the author an out.

I would submit that Brigham Young, Wilford Woodruff, and Brigham Young--the character witnesses you introduced--also were not present in Joseph's bedroom and cannot prove the negative also. But they were fellow polygamists and inheritors of the mantle: Prophet, Seer, and Revelator. Perhaps they had an interest in protecting Joseph's historical image.

My references come from reputable scholars, journalists, and those believing Mormons who have the courage to dig into the truisms of their faith and root out the inconsistencies. One of those is Richard S. Van Wagoner, a BYU graduate who has written several books and scholarly articles--submissions that, unlike the fair.org contributor you cited, have had to pass the rigor of scholarly peer review:

From Van Wagoner's Mormon Polygamy: A History. (Salt Lake City: Signature, 1989):

quote:
Mary Elizabeth Lightner provided further perspective. "I knew he had three children," she said in a 1905 statement. "They told me. I think two of them are living today but they are not known as his children and they go by other names." Though the matter may be highly speculative, these three mentioned children may be Josephine L. Fisher, Zebulun Jacobs (b. 2 Jan. 1842), and Mary Lightner's own son, George Algeron (b. 22 Mar. 1842). Zina H. Jacobs and Mary Lightner were both in the advanced stages of pregnancy when the Prophet was sealed to them (p. 48-49, note 3).


Josephine Fisher is the alleged polyandrous child discussed in previous messages. The other two children could be the offspring of the original husband or they could be Joseph's. No DNA testing was available at the time to establish paternity.

As Van Wagoner says in his concluding paragraph on polyandry:

quote:
Steeped in such philosophy, married Mormon women such as Mary Elizabeth Lightner, Sylvia Sessions, Prescendia Buell, Zina D. H. Jacobs, Augusta Cobb, and Elenore McLean were persuaded that their non-Mormon or Mormon laymen husbands could not take them to the highest degree of the Celestial Kingdom. A Mormon male of hierarchical rank, his feet firmly planted in the priesthood, seemed a more sure ticket to heaven (p. 47-48).


A ticket to heaven? Or a way to insure that the Prophet would do his part to support the children of his widely scattered seed? A messy paternity dispute wouldn't have benefited the standing of the Prophet in his faith community, would it?

Wow. I've heard of shotgun weddings. But shotgun temple sealings? As you're fond of saying, go figure.




El Sid
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Some compelling information here:

www.mormoncurtain.com/topic_bookofmormon.html#pub_-148576356

Sinking The Ship - Witnesses To "Golden Plates" And Their Claims
ibmagg
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Dualag -as close knit as the saints were, I am sure that over the years some of the wives would have "spilled" the beans. Did I miss the list of those who claim to be Joseph's decendants?

 
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