This is the text of a father's speech on behalf of his son as his son was about to depart on an LDS mission. (I altered the real names, but the speech is otherwise word-for-word.)

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[John] asked us to make sure that this meeting did not sound like a eulogy for him, and we will try to do that. However, I want to say before proceeding with the rest of my talk that I am extremely proud of how [John] has chosen to live his life to this point.

We have with us today many family members who have travelled from long distances, and friends from all over the City. Thank you for being here with us. I would like to particularly thank our friends who are not members of this church for taking the time to share this special family occasion with us. I would like in particular to express my appreciation to my business associates who are here today for the way in which they enrich my life. I admire and look up to them in many ways.

From time to time my friends who are not members of our church have asked me why I went on a mission, and more generally why our church sends missionaries into parts of the world that are already Christian. I would like to briefly answer those questions by sharing with you some experiences I had while travelling in Peru this summer where I served my mission almost 25 years ago. I believe that most missionaries have experiences and feelings of the type I am about to relate.

I served 10 months of my two-year mission in the part of Peru we visited. During those 10 months, I was privileged to get to know and teach the gospel to three families who chose to commit themselves to live in accordance with the teachings of the Gospel. I was with each family for on average about two months, and I played a small role in their decision to live their lives in accordance with the gospel of Jesus Christ. I should make it clear that these people, before we met them, were good Christian people. They recognized something in the Gospel message we brought to them that would help them to become even better at loving and relating to members of their family and others, and to so find greater joy in life.

Just before I left Peru in early 1979 my diary was stolen. It contained the addresses of these and many other people I had intended to stay in touch with. Once back in Canada, I tried through various means get in touch with them, but couldn’t. One of my main purposes in travelling to Peru was to attempt to reestablish contact with them. It seemed at times like we were looking for the proverbial needle in a haystack.

One Sunday we had been told that the [Ferrini] family, one of the families I was looking for, might be attending church at a particular chapel in the city we were visiting. We found the building with the help of a cab driver, entered it and were told that the [Ferrini] family did indeed attend that ward. Someone volunteered to go find Bro. [Ferrini] for us. By the way, within the Church we refer to each other as Brother and Sister, since we believe that we are all children of the same Heavenly Father. Moments later a small man who looked vaguely familiar came down the hall toward us. I told him who I was, and he looked confused. My heart fell since I assumed that we had been directed to the wrong family.

However, he then said that perhaps it was his brother I was looking for, and disappeared around a corner. Moments later I saw Brother [Ferrini] walking towards us. I knew him the moment I saw him, told him who I was and we immediately embraced. We chatted for a few minutes in the hall, and then went into an empty classroom to continue our visit. One after another, Sister [Ferrini] and four of the [Ferrini]’ six adult children joined us. Sister [Ferrini] is particularly emotional and spiritual. She burst into tears as soon as she saw me, which caused the rest of us to break into tears. The initial few minutes I spent with her and her family will remain one of the emotional highlights of my life. Sister [Ferrini] reminded me of the dreams she had while we taught her family the gospel. In those dreams she saw the Saviour beckoning to her, and calling her to follow him and listen to us. This helped her to decide to play close attention to what we had to say. One of her adult daughters reminded me of the time when she was five years old and so sick that the doctors had told her family there was nothing more they could do. Her fever was bad enough that she had been delirious for a several days. Her parents asked me to give her a blessing of health of health – in effect to heal her if it was God’s will. My companion and I laid our hands on her head in the manner described in the New Testament and promised her in Jesus name that she would recover. Within hours her fever broke and she began to come back to life. Her family counts this among the miracles the gospel brought to them. Being reminded this significant event caused a tremendous emotional surge inside of me. We again all shed tears, and while crying I tried to translate for the benefit of my family what I was being told, and was remembering, of the experiences I had with the [Ferrini] family during their conversion process.

Four of the [Ferrini] six children have also served as missionaries for our Church. A number of relatives have joined the Church on both sides of their family, and many of their children have served missions. They estimate that well in excess of 100 people have committed themselves to live in accordance with the gospel as a direct result of their family joining the Church. As I sat in the embrace of the [Ferrini] family while we reacquainted ourselves I was filled with a euphoria that I have only felt on a few other occasions in my life.

As we left the chapel after visiting with them for about half an hour, [John] said that he could hardly wait to be able to take his family to the Ukraine when he was my age so that they could meet the people he was going to grow to love there.

Time doesn’t permit a full description of the reunions we had with the other two families we had been looking for, or of the many things we did with them and the [Ferrini] family for the week that we were in their city. However, I should say that we found both of the other families in circumstances similar to those of the [Ferrini] family. Each of these three wonderful families has continued for all these years to be faithful followers of Jesus Christ. Each have had children serve missions and other family members become members of the Church. And most importantly, when I was with each of them I could feel the peace and joy that typifies faithful followers of the Saviour. This is not a party time, candyfloss kind of joy. It is more like the calm beneath the ocean’s turbulent surface. A calm that permeates, supports and underlies all that we do, and helps us to endure life’s difficulties with patience and grace.

Over and over again while we were with these people they thanked me, often with tears in their eyes, for being one of those who brought a life-changing message to them. The bond I feel to them is what compelled me at the first reasonable chance to travel half way around the world and seek them out. It is a privilege to feel this strongly about other human beings, and an even greater privilege to have those feelings reciprocated. Relationships of this type are priceless.

Brothers and Sisters, the only thing that is unique about my experience with my Peruvian friends is that I lost touch with them, and so our reunion involved more drama than usual. The feelings I have for them and they for me are typical of what exists between missionaries and the people to whom they introduce the gospel. These relationships, and the joy that flows from them, is why generation after generation of young missionaries like [John] put school, careers and girl or boy friends on hold for two years to carry the Saviour’s message into the world. Some, like [John] and me, go to the far corners of the earth. Other’s, like some of [John]’s friends and relatives, have gone to exotic places like Saskatchewan or Idaho. The place, language and culture do not matter. The relationships formed between the missionaries and those they teach are the same.

I would like to ask that for a moment you each think of the many relatively shortlived relationships you have had with people over the years. People you have worked with for a few months, people you studied with for a few months, etc. Now imagine how you would feel if after many years you bumped into one of those people. How would that affect you?

I am fascinated by the nature of the relationship I have with these Peruvian families. We were only together for a short time almost 25 years ago. We have had no contact since then, and our reunion caused an emotional earthquake. To me this speaks volumes of the importance of the event I was privileged share with them – of the importance of the role I was privileged to play in their lives.

Again, that is why we serve missions.

I am thrilled that [John] saw some of the fruits of my missionary labours before he went on his mission. There are many more tough days than euphoric days during a mission, and he has seen an aspect of the harvest of my seeds sown that will help him through the tough days.

As Henry David Thoreau said, “Humility, like darkness, reveals heavenly lights.” [John]’s mission will give him the opportunity to plumb depths of humility he cannot understand until he experiences them. Just as I could not adequately prepare our family him for what the poverty of Peru would make him feel, I can’t by explanation prepare him for the challenges of missionary life. In the soul stretching, difficult experiences he will have during his mission, he will come to know God. And knowing God, he will be able to introduce to him the Ukrainian people he will come to love. The memory of what [John] saw in the reunion I had with my Peruvian friends will hopefully help him through that process.

I want you to know that I believe with all my heart that the message carried by the missionaries of this Church is the complete gospel of Jesus Christ, and that each of us, both members and non-members of this Church, will find more joy and peace in our lives as we become better at following that message.

I am far from a perfect person. Everyone who knows me more than a little can testify to that. The gospel, however, is perfect. I want you each to know that the influence of the gospel in my life has refined me and improved me. The best parts of my character are due in large measure to the gospel’s influence. It has therefore helped me to find much of the joy that is in my life. My friends in Peru feel the same way about their lives, and that is why they feel such gratitude toward me. I was the humble, inarticulate, 19 year old messenger who was privileged to bring them a life-changing message.

I would finally like to publicly acknowledge my love for my wife, [Sue], and for our children. [Sue] is the heart and soul of our family. Our children’s loving nature is her doing. I have to take credit for the hard edges a few of them have.

My parents and [Sue’s] father are also here. [Sue’s] mother is overseas and unable to attend. Our parents have played and continue to play a regular and important role in our lives and the lives of our children. I love them very much, and hope I can follow their example of how to be both a parent and a grandparent.

We all wish you good luck, [John]. I say these things in the name of Jesus Christ, Amen.

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I have mixed feelings when I read this speech. It is very well written, and I imagine both father and son were moved when it was given.

The speech shows a man who approaches his faith with a sincere heart and strong belief - but obviously with inadequate information. His kindness and good life would inspire me if the deception he has fallen prey to did not so sadden me.

How can one reconcile this writing? Such an obviously intelligent and good man who has fallen for the religion of Joseph Smith? It is confounding!

El Sid,

Are you talking about Bob McCue, bishop in Calgary who left the church, but whose family still attends? I have already read this. I think what you are doing is a little dishonest. Here is how I see your plan.

1. Get the LDS members on the board to agree with the sentiment of the talk and comment on what a good person this father must be.

2. Suprise them with the fact that this person was a bishop and has resigned the church.

3. Reinforce that no one in the church has truly studied their own church.

Hmmm. . . sounds a little deceptive. Is this what you were doing?

El Sid,

I think your argument would have been much better if you came out with all the facts instead of trying to pull one over. I am open to your explanation if that was not your intent.

LDS is a dangerous cult.






http://www.endtime.com/default.asp

Yes, Bob McCue gave this speech.

Deception is no part of my post. I made no false representations. Everything I posted was true.

I posted this as a device to spark discussion.

Mr. McCue was, as you can tell, a devoted church member. He then took an honest, open minded and informed look at church history. Once he did, here is what he discovered:

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The bottom line is this: I have come to disbelieve many of the claims the Mormon Church makes for itself. For example, I do not believe that the Book of Mormon is real history. I believe that book to
contain great truths and to be tremendously important, but it was not translated from
ancient records in the manner we are led to believe. The same applies to the Book of Abraham. I do not believe that the Mormon Church is the only "true" church, but rather that there are many forms of religious truth with equal or greater claim on God’s sanction. I have found incontrovertible evidence of a Mormon Church policy of systematically hiding certain aspects of the Church’s history that show how human its leaders are. I believe that this is done to encourage obedience since an understanding how often the Church’s leaders have been wrong on important issues in the past would be corrosive to the members willingness to follow the current leaders' dictates. I believe that the Church’s leaders are often inspired, and sometimes are wrong on critically important issues even when they are sure they are right and purport to speak in God’s name. The historical record, once one finally looks at it, admits of no other conclusion.

www.mccue.cc/bob/documents/rs.letter%20to%20friends%20oct%202002.pdf

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I hope that this post about Mr. McCue does not lead to the inevitable LDS attacks on his chracter, especially that the moral requirements of the church must have been too stringent. Nonsense! This devoted church servant just studied and learned the truth!

The sad thing is that I think Mr. McCue has been so impacted by the deception under which he labored, that he now discounts all religion. He seems to still believe in a higher power, but I do not believe he even accepts the Bible.

That is a great danger for members who learn the true nature of the church.

Mr. McCue wrote, "The historical record, once one finally looks at it, admits of no other conclusion."

On this point, he is right on the money. My hope in this post is to spark current LDS members to at least do what McCue did - take on an open and thorough analysis of church history and of church scripture.

By the way, Mr. McCue notes that it is "chilling" for him to re-read the above speech now that he knows the truth about Mormonism. It must have taken significant courage for him to accomplish what he has accomplished!

El Sid,

Why didn't you come out with all the facts up front? This is deceptive. I didn't make any comment about his character. You will notice he doesn't make disparaging remarks about the character of his wife and family who are still active and came to a different conclusion. Do you not think he shared his findings with her?

Obviously, Mr. McCue's wife has not done what I suggested.

I would amend Mr. McCue's sentence:

The historical record, once one finally looks at it with an open mind, leads to only one conclusion.

Brilliant men and women can fall prey to their own biases/lack of objectivity. For a review of Mormon history, one does not even need pure objectivity - even partial objectivity will be enough for the truth to seep in.

p.s. Withholding a single piece of information to make a point is not deceptive in the sense you intend that word. It is a discussion device. It causes the reader to rethink assumptions and can force some objective analysis into a discussion.

[This message has been edited by El Sid (edited 4/21/2006 1:41p).]

Truth should withstand scrutiny.

http://thechurchisnottrue.com/testimony/html/whyworry.html

El Sid,

The point you bring up has been discussed over and over and over.

1. Your position is that you know what is right for current members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints. If they just looked honestly at their church they would leave.

2. Members can have no possible idea why someone has left the church, only you have that information. It is always doctrinal.

I never argued that we know we different people leave the church, in fact I said unless we have specific information we don't know. On the other hand you hold a double standard and state that you know exactly why someone would remain active and that is because they haven't truly opened their mind and studied hard enough.

How is this different? My belief is that you were being deceptive. You think the ends justify the means. I respect your belief please respect mine

One last question, what do you hope to gain by reviving this question?

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El Sid,

Why didn't you come out with all the facts up front? This is deceptive

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Does the expression milk before meat ring a bell?

How is what El Sid is doing any different than what Mormon mishies do thousands of times per day.

Sell people on the idea of "forever families" and Mormonism as something akin to mainstream Christianity.

Then wham! bam! thank you, Yam! The convert's parents cannot attend their daughter's temple wedding.

Yes, it is such a family centered religion....if everyone in the family happens to be a true believing Mormon.

Mention your doubts about the church, and everyone starts to either shun you or turn you in to a ward project. Maybe both.

Husband and wife are very happily married then (as Scooby Doo, the cartoon dog would say - "Rut-Ro.) One of the parties happens to read something besides faith promoting literature and the next thing you know...they are expressing serious doubts about the truthfulness of the church.

And when that happens - what you see far too often is a divorce between two people who supposedly loved one another....it is far more important for the apostate person to be punished via divorce than it is to allow people to be true to their own conscience.

People may wonder why I, who have never been Mormon, react so strongly against the Mormon church. I compare it to what I would do if I saw a person stepping in front of a speeding car.

And yes, my living will states that at no time, should they convert to Mormonism, will my descendants perform temple work for me. I'll take my chances on salvation with Jesus rather than horny Ol' Joe.

Bob McCue is pretty clear why he left the church.

I thought that a read of McCue's speech would spark discussion.

1) McCue was clearly an active and true believing Mormon.

2) McCue engaged in a study of the church.

3) McCue discovered the truth.

My hope, bizag, is that you will do the same. You repeat this nonsense about me knowing what is better for you. I don't know what is better for you. It may be better for you to stay i the church even if it is false.

I do know that the church is false. Knowing the church is false is different from knowing what is best for you. Understand?

What I hope is that you will investigate like McCue investigated.

How high up in the hierarchy was McCue?

El Sid,

Did you not go through the site. He was a bishop, in charge of a local congregation. What makes you so sure I haven't done an open minded anaylsis? oh...that's right because I am active and didn't come to the same conclusion.

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He was a bishop, in charge of a local congregation.

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Is that a position of authority, or is it relatively common/mundane? (I honestly don't know.)

What is the hierarchy?

El Sid,

OK, sorry if you didn't know. He was in charge of a local congregation(ward), probably 150-250 people, two or three wards meet in every chapel. Bishops usually serve for 5 years.

Do you agree that Mr. McCue showed great courage to do what he did?

I don't know. God will be our judge. I remember telling you I have 2 sisters and a brother that have left also for various reasons. This is not common everywhere I have attended, not many people have experienced this. (to have someone in your family who has had their name removed). I think you have to follow your beliefs.

[This message has been edited by bizag (edited 4/21/2006 2:11p).]

Sid, in Church history, Olive Cowdrey and others left the Church who were part of the eleven witnesses. All but one rejoined the Church after expressing sorrowful repentance. They wanted no "high" postion in the Chruch like they once held; just to be the most humble of members. They claimed that Satan had deceived them and cautioned everyone how this could happen. The one who was not rebaptised never denied the truthfulness of his testimony of handling the Gold plates. There were forces at work on this former Bishop, but I can promise you that "the truth" was not one of them. It will be interesting to see how his life plays out. Nice try -but inept on your part. We are well aware of what goes on in the Church and contrary to the opinion of some "we did not check our brains in at the door when we joined!"

Those poor men who lived in Joseph's day! If only they had known the facts available today! Alas, they could not have known.

p.s. Brilliant men and women can fall prey to their own biases/lack of objectivity.

[This message has been edited by El Sid (edited 4/21/2006 3:27p).]

it's a faith built on deception and ambiguous assumptions regarding an American history that has been unsubstantiated time over.

El Sid,

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p.s. Brilliant men and women can fall prey to their own biases/lack of objectivity

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Very true. Good warning for everyone. Luckily, I'm not brilliant, only objective.

[This message has been edited by bizag (edited 4/21/2006 3:48p).]

Sid, these were the men who stood up close with the angel Moroni and handled the plates carefully, the sword of Laban and other items. How more real can it get?

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Sid, these were the men who stood up close with the angel Moroni and handled the plates carefully, the sword of Laban and other items. How more real can it get?

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Considering the Angel Moroni is a fictituous character and never existed, I'd say it's far from real.

ibmagg, maybe you should ask yourself that question.

If they had RERALLY "stood up close with the angel Moroni," would they have EVER left the church like they did? I wouldn't have.

But they did.

He makes a great point. All the miracles that God performed with Moses and the Jews and they murmured and murmured and started to worship idols. Go figure. But all the witnesses came back sorrowful and repentant and the other never denied his testimony (he claimed he didn't leave the Church, the Church left him -he didn't want to go west) nor did any of them deny their testimony that they gave sworn affadavits to. If I remember right, most of them that left were excommunicated.

Hostile_ag -the mouse that roared. Until You answer what I gave you about the thief on the cross, I would be silent.

This is ridiculous, the bible says God created the original angels, and no more were ever nor will ever come into being.

People dont become angels.

I'm right, you're wrong, get used to it

As for the miracles of God in the bible, they are actually IN the bible. Moroni is not, he is the fabric of Joseph Smith's mind, a mind which according to many accounts was a few chips short of a cookie.

Hostile_Aggie -the think that I appreciate the most about you is that you are often in error, but never in doubt! The statements you have just made have no scriptural basis; they are simply your opinions (in error of course).

Until you can tell me me who the angel is that John saw, as recorded in the Book of Revelation, flying in the midst of heaven with the everlasting gospel to preach to every nation, kindred, tongue and people, and why God would send the Gospel back if it were still in the possession of any nation or people, the Angel Moroni qualifies. I wonder how the other eleven men who saw Moroni and handled the gold plates on two separate occasions could have been so wrong, because they enjoyed excellent reputations. As far as the Prophet Joseph, you are behind the times; he is now relunctantly conceded to be a religious genius.

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he is now relunctantly conceded to be a religious genius.

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Only by his warped followers

Joseph Smith gettig that many people to fall for his schtick is maybe the greatest instance of being "Punked" in the history of man. Ashton Kutcher will never come close.

As to the angel that John saw, I've answered it before, I'll answer it again: Just because God sends an angel to preach the gospel does NOT mean that there is no gospel to be found on earth. It means God does what he wants and he sent an angel to preach his word.

Hostile_Aggie -that is about as weak an answer concerning the Angel prophesied in the Book of Revelation as I have heard -but on second thought that is really all that you could come up with. The Gospel was not to be found on the earth at the time John saw. That would be the only reason the Lord would send it back. God does not do meaningless exerecises just because "he wants to." Parts of the Gospel had always been on the earth from the time of Adam. But pats of the Gospel is NOT the fullness of the Gospel. It resides only in the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints and it is in the process of being taken to every nation, kindred, tongue and people.

The saints have never considered Joseph a "religious genius". Only a prophet who received direct revelation from the Lord. That per se requires no genius. But the enemies of the Church, trying to figure out how this uneducated boy could come up with the religious doctrines that he introduced to the people, everyone of them having some substance from scripture, and the explanation of the ancient civilization on this continent (evidences being consistently found) had to be the work of a misguided genius and not any revelation from God. They have hardly any other choice as they see the power of his teachings grow and grow and spread across the world.

Have you ever known of an angel ever to preach the word of God to the people anywhere?

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Have you ever known of an angel ever to preach the word of God to the people anywhere?

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God sent an angel to tell Abraham the word of God on several occasions

And God may send the angel because the earth is lacking the gospel in some parts, maybe he just sends it because he is Godand he wants to. It really doesnt matter and doesnt have any pertinacne to this discussion

Well, I guess Ellen G. White is a religious genius too? Or a prophet?

Since the 7th Day Adventists started at the same time as the Mormons, and today have the same or more members and have plenty of "fruits," how do you distinguish them from the LDS church?

ibmagg, all of your arguments about your church (which you seem to think are persuasive) apply equally to the 7th Day Adventist church!!

In fact, there are many Mormons who have left the LDS church for the 7th Day Adventist church! I can only guess you have no response to the similarities between these two churches.

Both venerate their "prophets" (Joseph Smith and Ellen White). Both have elitist views (they are the chosen, the holders of the true gospel).

Oh, and both are misguided. Make an argument about your church (not your doctrine) that does not equally apply to the 7th Day Adventists. You cannot.

But they don't have living Apostles and Prophets today! I am afraid you are sniffing glue when you make a statement about many Mormons leaving the Church for the 7th Day Adventists. Show me the proof for such an amusing declaration. Remember, beware of "false prophets"; not, that all prophets will be false. The people's problem is how to discern the true from the false -there is a key! Satan will always try to introduce the couterfeit prophets, doctrines, etc. He has done so since the time of Adam.

Hostile_Aggie -The Angel in Revelation was different, for the everlasting Gospel he had was to be preached to "every" nation, kindred, tongue and people. If any people on earth still had it, the Lord would have used them -remember the "great comission", but you can't take what you don't have! It will be taken by us to the people around the world as the Lord has commanded us to do. Pretty ambitious goals for a young uneducated boy (with no wealth or army of followers when he made the declaration that the restored Gospel would visit every clime and people, and would fill the whole world), on the edge of the western frontier -the whole world?

[This message has been edited by ibmagg (edited 4/22/2006 4:21p).]

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The people's problem is how to discern the true from the false -there is a key! Satan will always try to introduce the couterfeit prophets, doctrines, etc. He has done so since the time of Adam.

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Exactly!!

And I suspect you will tell me, "By their fruits ye shall know them." Right?

Well, the Seventh Day Adventists are full of what you seem to call "fruit."

I on the other hand, identify false prophets by comparing their doctrine with that of the Bible and by failed prophecies.

On both counts, Joseph Smith and Ellen G. White were false prophets!

How would you advise me to determine if Ellen G. White was a false prophet?