Why don't they use instruments in worship?

Psalm 150:

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1 Praise the LORD. [a]
Praise God in his sanctuary;
praise him in his mighty heavens.

2 Praise him for his acts of power;
praise him for his surpassing greatness.

3 Praise him with the sounding of the trumpet,
praise him with the harp and lyre,

4 praise him with tambourine and dancing,
praise him with the strings and flute,

5 praise him with the clash of cymbals,
praise him with resounding cymbals.

6 Let everything that has breath praise the LORD.
Praise the LORD.

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We visited one this week. It was a nice service. There were lots of hymns sung acapela. The singing was above average. But I just wonder why they won't use instruments in worship.

P.S. Keep your answers under 250 words. That's about all I can digest.

CW,

I Corinthians 14, Ephesians 5:19, and Colossians 3:16 all address the idea of singing. None makes mention of the use of musical instruments in worship of God in the church.

Some people argue that it says sing "psalms" which, as you have pointed out, call for the use of instruments. Psalms also has verses that call for the destruction of Israel's (and David's personal) enemies, but Matthew 5:44 tells us to love our enemies. So, inclusion in the OT does not mean acceptance in the NT.

There is more I could say, but I don't want to overwhelm you with more than you can digest.

It does not mention air conditioning either, but I yet to be in a CC without it.

I don't think this is something I'll have a major issue with. However, it seems to me that just because it is not mentioned in the NT doesn't mean we aren't allowed to include musical instruments in worship.

(I'm a musician and I don't see why the church would have a problem with my using my music to worship and glorify Him.)

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Psalms also has verses that call for the destruction of Israel's (and David's personal) enemies, but Matthew 5:44 tells us to love our enemies.

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You can pray for the destruction of your enemies and still love them. You are creating a false dichotomy. Nowhere in the O.T. does Scripture say to hate your enemies. Morality did not change from the old to the new.



Apollos.ws
think.learn.know

says somewhere in their about making music with your voices and hearts or somethin like that i believe

As mentioned before, it isnt mentioned or given as example in worship in the NT church. I believe thats why the c of C doesnt use them.

Also, got1, if there existed air conditioning back then, and it were pertinent to worship, Im sure it would have been mentioned.

You know when you are sick and go to the doctor for medicine, when he gives you the prescription, you follow it as it says. If it says take 3 pills a day, then you take 3 pills a day. It doesnt say NOT to take 10 a day....so why would you take 10? No, you follow it as it is written.

Jesus tells a different story than Ag4Life:

In verse 43 of Matthew five He says,

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You have heard that it was said, 'You shall love your neighbor and hate your enemy.'

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Secondly, I can't imagine a Christian, understanding the consequences of death outside of Christ, praying for the destruction of their enemy. That is the point of Matthew 5 -- a change from what had been taught under the OT -- a deeper understanding, a higher standard than the forefathers had.

There is no false dichotomy but simply an attempt by you to convince others of such.

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Secondly, I can't imagine a Christian, understanding the consequences of death outside of Christ, praying for the destruction of their enemy. That is the point of Matthew 5 -- a change from what had been taught under the OT -- a deeper understanding, a higher standard than the forefathers had.

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Can you please point out to me where in the OT that it says to hate your enemy? I can't find it. I did find this though:

Exo 23:4 If thou meet thine enemy's ox or his ass going astray, thou shalt surely bring it back to him again.
Exo 23:5 If thou see the ass of him that hateth thee lying under his burden, thou shalt forbear to leave him, thou shalt surely release it with him.

Sure sounds like "love your enemy" is right out the OT to me. Not to mention the fact that David loved Saul his entire life, despite Saul's hatred of David.

You assume too much when you think that Jesus was quoting and correcting the OT. He was in fact repudiating common teaching and reestablishing the OT.

So we're throwing out the OT on this one?

It is a tradition of the Church of Christ, although many members will argue otherwise.

It is rooted with Thomas and Alexander Campbell (father/son) who wanted to copy the first century church as closely as possible, and cite those verses as no commandment given on the issue.

Many will try to use the Bible (verses above) and say that we are not under the OT, and it is irrelavant, but they are trying to justify tradition with scripture - just like the pharisees. Instead they should embrace the wonderful tradition of acapella music and the fact that most CofC kids grow up with a great bit of music knowledge and appreciation.

It is a tradition and a great one at that, but there is nothing sinful about using all of your talents - musical instrament playing included - to worship God. Rather than sinful, that is joyous to God because we are commanded to use our talents to His glory.

I have heard CofCers argue that musical instrament ability is given by Satan. I have heard the view that it is sinful in worship, but OK to listen to Garth Brooks or (fill in blank.) Many take it to a huge extreme, but it boils down to tradition.

Yes, we are.

ramblinag,

I said nothing about correcting the OT. I said Christ was teaching a higher standard.

Matthew 5:21 addresses the commandment against murder (Exodus 20:13, Deut. 5:17) then proceeds to say that being angry with your brother will do the same.

Matthew 5:27 addresses adultery (Ex. 20:14, Deut. 5:18) but says that now to look at a woman with lust is as though committing adultery.

Matthew 5:31 addresses divorce (Deut. 24:1)under the OT (Matt 19:8 better describes God's allowance for the Israelite people) then proceeds to describe that there should be one true reason for divorce.

Matthew 5:33 addresses swearing falsely (Leviticus 6:3-7, Lev. 19:12, Jer. 7:9) but then says not to swear at all.

Matt. 5:38 addresses the idea of justice (Ex. 21:24, Lev. 24:20) then speaks of kindness and mercy. It is in this same vein that He speaks in Matthew 5:43. Now all of the others are addressing teachings of the OT, not teachings of the Pharisees. Why does this one not do the same?
The Law taught them to show specified acts of kindness to their enemies, but it is evident it is speaking of those with the Israelite camp. Now Jesus addresses (as He does with the Good Samaritan) that it speaks to all of your enemies, all those who hate you. The standard is raised to show concern for them, bless them, pray for them.

This is not a thread regarding this subject, but there is a distinction b/t the OT and the NT. Again, this scripture does not toss out the old law (He just got through saying in verse 17 that He came to fulfill the Law) but raises the standards for the coming Law of Christ.

Why, then, not throw out the ENTIRE OT? (to Phi)

God gave me musical ability. Shouldn't that be offered back to Him in worship?

[This message has been edited by combat wombat (edited 3/20/2006 1:07p).]

combatwombat:

God gave Chris Walker the ability to shoot the basketball really well, but that does not make it appropriate for CW to shoot hoops during a worship service to God.

I'm as impressed as anyone with the ability of someone to play a musical instrument and know of no one who thinks that it is the work of Satan. However, we only know what is acceptable to God by what He tells us. Playing a musical instrument (and shooting hoops) may be acceptable in God's worship, but we don't know that because He says nothing about it in the NT. He does tell us to sing. This we know is acceptable and pleasing (when done from the heart) because the scriptures, inspired by Him, tell us so.

When you play your musical instrument elsewhere, do it to the glory of God. He tells us all things are to be done for this glory and in the name of Jesus Christ! When CW plays basketball, he does it to the glory of God (his testimony last week). These things are just not done in the worship service of God because we do what He wants, not what we want.

Level,

I understand. However, this is something that is specifically mentioned as part of worship and praise in the OT. I haven't thrown out the OT. I don't study ONLY the NT. I guess that's why I'm confused. I'm not dying to play my instrument as a part of my worship. I just haven't seen a very convincing argument as to why we should not.

Combat Wombat,

That is, to some extent, the point. It is mentioned extensively in the OT (which I also study, though not as much as I should). Yet, there is not a mention of it in the worship of the NT. In Acts where churches are being established, there is no mention. In Corinthians, Ephesians, and Colossians where it speaks of singing, there is no mention. Nor in any of the other letters to congregations is it addressed.

Some people see it as an omission or sign of insignificance. The church of Christ views it as lack of authority to use it in worship when music (singing) is addressed without authorizing instrument use along with it.

I didn't say I didn't think it was a rational/valid argument. I'm just not convinced (yet anyway).

Level,

Long post, but needed to answer some issues you brought up, especially concerning Jesus and the OT.

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I said nothing about correcting the OT. I said Christ was teaching a higher standard.

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There is no higher standard than the Law. I would argue that Jesus is teaching the proper spirit of the Law, not creating a "higher law".

If you believe that Jesus taught against God's Law, then you following the wrong person. How could Jesus teach against the Law of His Father? How could the Messiah, the greatest prophet of the Law, break the Law by teaching against it? Not only that, but this from the same man who said that "not a jot or tittle shall pass from the Law", a law that includes adding nothing to it (including attempts to create a "higher" law)

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It is in this same vein that He speaks in Matthew 5:43. Now all of the others are addressing teachings of the OT, not teachings of the Pharisees. Why does this one not do the same?

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Because the Law never says what you implied it says. Show me where the Law says to hate your neighbor before you say Jesus makes this claim.

If you really think that the Law was only referring to livestock of your enemy Israelite, then you are missing the spirit of the verse. Jesus taught the proper context of the verse in Matthew.

Mat 5:21 Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not kill; and whosoever shall kill shall be in danger of the judgment:
Mat 5:22 But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire.

Sounds like: Psa 25:2 O my God, in thee have I trusted, Let me not be put to shame; Let not mine enemies triumph over me.
Psa 25:3 Yea, none that wait for thee shall be put to shame: They shall be put to shame that deal treacherously without cause.

to me. Another clarification of the second greatest of the Law, love your neighbor as yourself.

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Matthew 5:27 addresses adultery (Ex. 20:14, Deut. 5:18) but says that now to look at a woman with lust is as though committing adultery.

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Addressed in this thread:
http://www.texags.com/main/forum.reply.asp?topic_id=589540&forum_id=15

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Matthew 5:31 addresses divorce (Deut. 24:1)under the OT (Matt 19:8 better describes God's allowance for the Israelite people) then proceeds to describe that there should be one true reason for divorce.

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That is not what Jesus is saying here.
Mat 5:31 It was said also, Whosoever shall put away his wife, let him give her a writing of divorcement:
Mat 5:32 but I say unto you, that every one that putteth away his wife, saving for the cause of fornication, maketh her an adulteress: and whosoever shall marry her when she is put away committeth adultery.

Putting your wife away does not equal divorce. It is more equivalent to the modern practice of "marital separation." If you separate from your wife, then you make her an adulteress. Anyone who sleeps with her or marries her becomes an adulterer, because you are still married. It should also be noted that the first word in Matthew 5:32 (deh strong's 1161) can mean either "but" or "and". It does not necessarily imply a disagreement or correction with the previous statement.


Matthew 5:33 re: swearing

Deu 6:13 Thou shalt fear Jehovah thy God; and him shalt thou serve, and shalt swear by his name.

Lev 5:4 Or if any one swear rashly with his lips to do evil, or to do good, whatsoever it be that a man shall utter rashly with an oath, and it be hid from him; when he knoweth of it, then he shall be guilty in one of these things.

Now which do you think Jesus was talking about? If you really think Jesus meant no swearing at all, then he is in contradiction to His Father who states that we should swear only by His name.

Justice:

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Matt. 5:38 addresses the idea of justice (Ex. 21:24, Lev. 24:20) then speaks of kindness and mercy.

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This passage refers to individuals. If someone strikes you, and you hit them back then you are in a fight. If someone hits you, and you do not hit back, then they are clearly in the wrong. If they continue to hit you, then there is no doubt who is at fault and in need of judgement.

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God gave me musical ability. Shouldn't that be offered back to Him in worship?

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God gave all sorts of physical and mental skillful abilities... why is music so special you want to play it in the assembly.

What if you were a skilled boxer?

Worship is defined by God's intentions as described in fact his commands, not ours. The church of Christ as described in the New Testament did not participate in musical play, neither did Jesus.

Music cannot do what God wants in worship. Can you name what he wants in Worship? It too is described.

I'd comment on this subject, but I don't want to toot my horn...

Combat, you quoted:
Psalms 150:5 "praise him with the clash of cymbals, praise him with resounding cymbals."


1 Cor 13:1 If I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, but do not have love, I have become a noisy gong or a clanging cymbal.

Singing is speaking... Making music is not...

We have commands to speak, but no command to make noise... and noise making is not for the assembly of Christians.

I'm asking for specific, Biblical support for the CoC viewpoint on no instrumental music. The best I'm getting is that it is not specifically addressed in the NT.

This isn't about ME wanting to play my own instrument at church. Honestly, I would rather not (stage fright issues). However, I see specific Biblical support FOR using instruments in worship.

It seems we are simply tossing out the OT.

AgGermany, I'm sorry if I misunderstand that passage but it doesn't seem relevant to this discussion.

Bracy, I would appreciate your input.

[This message has been edited by combat wombat (edited 3/20/2006 3:20p).]

Bracy: I laughed.

CW, level addressed it for me.

The NT church did not address it. We are to speak where the bible speaks, and be silent where it is silent.

I was rather rough when I said we were going to toss out the OT. Remember, as Christians we are no longer under the OT law or ways. Christ did away with that when he fulfilled the gospel and established his church. So when I say we throw out the OT, I mean we do not follow the practices of it. Christ freed us from that and worship is addressed in the NT. Using musical instruments is not.

As many of you know, I am c of C. I dont interpret it as sinful to glorify God using instruments outside of worship.

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Remember, as Christians we are no longer under the OT law or ways.

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So... the early believers were no longer under the only "bible" that existed in their day? What "bible" were they preaching from?

[This message has been edited by Bracy (edited 3/20/2006 3:37p).]

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Remember, as Christians we are no longer under the OT law or ways.

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But you have replaced God's laws with laws that He never gave you, such as "do not worship with instruments".

combat wombat:

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Bracy, I would appreciate your input.

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What scriptures did the Bereans use to test the validity of Paul's message (Acts 17:11)?

That's the same scriptures I'd use to test the CoC doctrine concerning musical instruments.

Maybe I am wrong, but I'm interpreting it this way: since the NT is silent regarding the use of instruments then we go to the OT for guidance. If instrumental music was appropriate in worship (per the OT) why would it then become inappropriate simply because the NT is silent on that topic?

Bracy, I looked that passage up and did not understand your point.

This one issue would not prevent me from joining a CoC that I had otherwise decided to join.

[This message has been edited by combat wombat (edited 3/20/2006 3:58p).]

Bracy, Christ advised to continue in the ways and follow the old law before he fulilled the gospel. Then once he established his church, the old law became void.

Ramblin, I never said that. What I speak of is NT example. Would you create your own law of a practice not mentioned in the NT? I havene replaced anything. My focus is on Christs established church of the NT.

CW, why would you look to old ways for an answer? All your answers can be found in the NT. Im not saying, nor have I ever said that it is wrong. You did however ask why the c of C does not use them and Ive answered why. Im saying that the c of C does not use them because we believe in following the NT church as closely as possible according to the word. It is not mentioned in worship in the NT, so we dont use instruments.

Can I ask you, if this is the only thing barring you from the church, then what of everything else has drawn you to it to make you want to attend?

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Ramblin, I never said that. What I speak of is NT example. Would you create your own law of a practice not mentioned in the NT? I havene replaced anything. My focus is on Christs established church of the NT.

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You just said that the old Laws were void, and these new laws are in effect. How is that not replacing God's explicitly given Laws with laws based on your own interpretations?

Regarding instruments specifically, if your church wants to make a custom or tradition of not using them in worship, then fine. Just don't try to say that worshipping with instruments is sinful. We know what is sinful. We have a complete list of sins given to us in the Law, and worshipping with instruments is nowhere to be found in that list.

I have only attended a couple of services at CoC. However, my husband was a CoC member in college. We are looking for a church and CoC is at the top of this list for that reason. So far, I have no issues with CoC doctrine as I understand it. (Granted, my understanding is still limited.) I've never been big on "denomination" as long as a church is Biblically based.

With respect to my initial question. Yes, it has been answered. Thank you. I guess I've gone off on a tangent. I don't see the CoC practice as wrong. However, I don't see the use of instruments as wrong based upon my personal study and understanding of scripture.

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Bracy, Christ advised to continue in the ways and follow the old law before he fulilled the gospel. Then once he established his church, the old law became void.

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So, Yeshua taught His followers to forsake the only "bible" that existed in His day?

What on earth did believers do until His disciples wrote a new set of scriptures to replace it?

When Paul wrote:

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2 Timothy 3:16: All scripture [is] given by inspiration of God, and [is] profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness

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...what scriptures was he referring to? His own letters?

[This message has been edited by Bracy (edited 3/20/2006 4:20p).]

If the laws of the OT are still in effect, shouldn't we be keeping kosher? I have a friend who will not eat "unclean" animals. No pig. No catfish. No shellfish. This is one thing I've struggled with... whether I should be keeping kosher (with respect to clean/unclean).