I was just wondering, when it comes to "rendering unto Caesar what is Caesar's" and tithing...is it proper to give 10% of my before-tax income or 10% of my after-tax income. Since the government now takes care of many of the people churches used to (widows, orphans, etc), I often wonder where my tithe is going relative to those who tithed in the 1940s and 1950s. If it is going to gas up my pastor's BMW then I'll be content to give 10% after tax. But if it is actually going to something good like a food pantry or something, then I'll gladly give before-tax.

[This message has been edited by texasaggies_21 (edited 11/11/2004 4:36p).]

before taxes.

My pastor recognizes the unreasonableness of tithing based on pre-tax income, and has stated that it should be done on a post-tax basis.

/Lutheran

I think as long as my pastor drives a BMW I should be allowed to save more money should I want my own BMW...therefore I'm for after-tax tithing.

First of all, nice troll but you're on the wrong board.

Secondly, I pay tithing on my after tax income. It says in the Bible that we are supposed to pay 10% of our "increase". Pading the government doll doesn't give me any increase, so I pay after tax. I also pay on tax returns. I don't pay on gifts (the gift giver should have paid that, and I don't think God is a fan of double taxation) but do pay on anything else I receive. I also don't reduce my tithe by the money I give to charity; I pay to charities on my after-tithe income.

I wonder how many people actually pay 10% of their income to their church. I do it, but I kind of thought I was in the minority.

Not a troll post, and since it dealt with taxation and religion, I figured it could go on the "politics" board, since I'm not really familiar with the religion forum.

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My pastor recognizes the unreasonableness of tithing based on pre-tax income, and has stated that it should be done on a post-tax basis.

/Lutheran

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My Lutheran church in HS told us before-tax...but then, they were strapped for cash as well.

I don't tithe, and I don't give NEAR what I should. I should tithe and probably then some.

I don't think God cares if you are 10% before or after taxes...he cares how much is from your heart.

Remember the story of the rich man and the poor lady, and Jesus saying which actually gave more?

Needless to say, in either case, I'm not giving enough.

post tax is fine since that is your true disposable income to live on

Gross taxable.

First off, I don't tithe, so I am not judging anyone.

But I find it laughable that people actually try to say they "tithe", but only after tax earnings.

If you tithe your "increase" you have to include the tax money you pay. You are you not increased by having police to keep you safe? are you not increased by having an army fight for your rights? are you increased by having roads to drive on?

I have heard it stated: "Do you want the blessings of what you give to be multiplied based on your gross or net income?"

Give accordingly.

I paid over $11,000 to my church last year. How much did you pay?

Col. Jessup,

First, I admire you for being disciplined enough to regularly tithe. I believe you certainly are in the minority. Churches are just like a lot of other entities...10% of the people account for 90% of the giving (that applies to their time and energy as well as their $$$).

I don't think there are many people left who actually "tithe". In my own family we try to give what we can...I've never really calculate the percentage, although I know it comes to several (8-10) thousand dollars per year.

I tithe before taxes. My FIL is a baptist preacher and he said you tithe what your heart feels, but if you go by the bible, it is your first 10, so you taxes aren't your first 10 so it should be before taxes.

yeah, but if you go by the bible...<insert remark here>

texasaggies

Biblically speaking, it is the FIRST 10%. IMO, that presumes before taxes are paid. But do what you feel God leads you to do.

In addition, it is YOUR responsibility to find a church who is spending God's money appropriately. Just because the government has taken on much responsibility for these tasks, that does NOT exempt your responsibility. I don't think the bible says you no longer have to take care of things, if the government decides to do it. In addition to that... IMO, your responsibility should probably go beyond tithing... you should probably go ahead and help the food pantry, or something... in addition.

IMO, not biblically speaking, but I really don't care what my pastor drives. For all you know that BMW was a gift. Many of the orgs I'm involved with are gifted unbelievable gifts. A BMW?! Incredible international trips, stock, equity, homes... One was gifted college for their kids, upto $20K/each/yr (three kids). And I don't resent them at all... these are very hard working, well deserving, unassumable people. My wife and I passed on a used car to one family... who 2 years later gave it to another needing family... who used it for a year, then sold it, and donated the proceeds to another organization.

AggieBrother Glad your pastor has more power and control of God's word, than Himself. God could NEVER have foreseen the 'unreasonableness' of tithing pre-tax. What WAS He thinking?!

Col

So, you pay after tax... then take the tax deduction?! Sounds like double dipping.

Tramp

I'd have to disagree...not that I'm a bible thumper but....

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Gen 4:4 But Abel brought fat portions from some of the firstborn of his flock. The LORD looked with favor on Abel and his offering, 5 but on Cain and his offering he did not look with favor. So Cain was very angry, and his face was downcast.

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Unfortunately, giving is a lost art, for those that can give. Unfortunately we become to self absorbed with our desire for self wealth accumulation, we forget the "good deed" accumulation.

[This message has been edited by DallasAg 94 (edited 11/11/2004 10:34p).]

DallasAg 94: You are a holier-than-thou asshat.

Give before the taxes are stolen from you...

As for those boasting of giving, don't let your left hand know what your right hand does...

dp

[This message has been edited by Maise (edited 11/11/2004 10:30p).]

personally, i am comforted by the fact that there are living saints like nathan jessup that give so much and make up for people like me. i've dealt with a lot of guilt and whatnot, but what enables me to sleep at night is the fact that there are people out there, like jessup, that go so far above the minimum and take upon themselves the monetary factors of my salvation.

thanks, from the bottom of my heart...and my childrens' hearts, for giving that little bit extra and letting me know that you do so that i can thank you personally. right now, my kiddos are fingerpainting you some "thank you" cards. i've been studious when instructing them to include the monetary amount you've included towards their salvation. little tobias has been so studious as that he has calculated a monetary amount to deduct from your donation for his sins! ah, the youth! so cute and naive!

i personally thank you for both your donation and the disclosure so that i know how gracious i should be. when we are in heaven together, hey, i (apparently) can't buy you a drink, but i can damn sure enjoy the one you'll buy me, but i'll damn sure know how much i owe you after!

from the bottom of my gracious heart, thanks!

Writing out a check for 10% either before or after seems a little to legalistic for me.

I give from my heart, and try to find innovative ways to give back - even if it isnt salary*.1=collection plate.

AggieBrother
Do you think I'm a "holier-than-thou," due to some of the information I posted, that has been removed. Or by other comments?!

Notafraid
My intent was not to boast. Posting on an anonymous website, IMO, is much different, than standing on the street corner, or posting my picture on a billboard, on 635. I removed information in my post, which looked more inappropriate once posted, than it looked while typing, so your point is well taken.

The intent of my post was, regardless of how much someone gives, they probably don't give enough, myself included. I agree with Guitar, in that giving should be from your heart. My point was, that i do backup what I believe... and put my preverbial money where my mouth is. Lest I be charged a hypocrite. So, you get charged with either being a hypocrite or boaster.

Guitarsoup
I agree. Giving from your heart, or what you feel lead to give, IMO, outweighs what anyone else's opinion is.

Dallas Ag 94:

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So, you pay after tax... then take the tax deduction?! Sounds like double dipping.

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Yeah, and then I pay 10% of my return. Thus abiding by my 10% of my increase rule. Do you think I shouldn't decuct my charitable contributions from my income tax? I guess I don't understand.

Maise:

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personally, i am comforted by the fact that there are living saints like nathan jessup . . . blah, blah, blah

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Look dude, I was replying directly to BMX Bandit who said "First off, I don't tithe, so I am not judging anyone" and then went on to say "But I find it laughable that people actually try to say they "tithe", but only after tax earnings." I'm not trying to be a martyr here, I'm responding to something I find both hypocritical and in poor taste. I'm sorry you don't like it. Actually, no I'm not.

Notafraid:

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As for those boasting of giving, don't let your left hand know what your right hand does...

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Like I said above, I did not intend to boast about my giving. My intent was to respond to what I considered a ridiculous post aimed at me. You are absolutely right, though, that I shouldn't have been lured in to this in the first place. Good intentions or not, I'm the one who looks like an ass here.

Kudos again to texasaggie_21 on a sucessful troll.

Col

I was just ribbing you. The wife and I have joked about whether we should tithe on our tax return.

Never let the right hand know what the right hand is doing. When you pray, go to your closet and shut the door and pray in private.

What do you give of your heart? God wants Mercy, nor Sacrifice.(Hosea).

david

Maise,

Deny that the Lord exists or not, ever word you say, and ever mocking and hateful thought you have will be judge by Him some day, and trust me, when He comes again, it will not be the gentle image you have in your dark little mind. You will know some day, with the most fear you have ever known, that what I say here is true, and your knee will bow and even with your mouth you will confess that He was and is Lord, and you will go before Him and be judged. There will be no secret thoughts or things done in the dark or things forgotten about there. Every thing, all you are, and have you will become will be exposed.

thanks for that

If the stats over the last 33 years or so are even loosly correct, then most of you responding arn't tithing on either your gross or net.

To me, perhaps a more realistic, honest question is.....are you moving toward or away from financial obedience to God? Somehow we think that if we fork over a percentage of our income, then the rest is ours to do with as we will.

That, my friends, is carnal thinking. ALL of our money, time, things, (fill in the blank) belongs to God.He asks for a percentage to go to our local church. Even if we do that, net or gross, we are still not off the hook. He is, or should be, Lord of all our money.

I have many Christian friends who have, by choice, placed themselves in a financial situation, that if they were to start tithing, gross or net, they would go under. Instead of letting them off the hook (something they want, that way they don't have to change their lifestyle)I ask them, "Well, are you moving toward or away from obedience to God with your finances?" They can respond how they choose.

I could give a long testimony bout how 17 years ago my wife and I discovered that we didn't have enough money to let her stay at home.(Our daughter developed separation anxiety) Not only did we pull it off, but we had much more in savings at the end than at the beginning. I realize that this sounds like an abbrieviated advertizement for tithing.

That's because it is.

[This message has been edited by The Lone Stranger (edited 11/12/2004 7:22a).]

The wife and I are both convinced that "first fruits" can be directly extrapolated to today's pre-tax income. Therfore that's what we give based on.

"Should I tithe on my gross income or my net income?"

"It depends on whether you want a gross blessing or a net blessing."

Same way as the Colonel.

The Bible says tithe on your increase, so tithing my post-tax income (monthly) and then yearly income tax deductions seems to work.

So how do you guys count the tithe on the 7.5% Social Security that the company pays on your behalf, but is never included in your gross pay?

[This message has been edited by Win At Life (edited 11/15/2004 7:52a).]

The thing is that the Lord doesn’t need your money. He wants your heart, and this symbol of the tithe tests your heart. He could give you a million dollars if you needed it. He intimately knows your ever need, and so those of you who are robbing God of this are not hurting Him, but really yourself. I’m telling you that if you are getting cheap with God, try to tip him, and such, don’t even bother… If your just going to church out of some sense of guilt or duty, don’t even bother.

I know this is contrary to the church growth movement, and the semi-Pelagian (Arminian) doctrines that are popular today, but don’t mock God with your games, and false devotions. There is no need to really bother yourself if He is not beautiful to you, and your heart is not really in it. Keep your tip, and your time. They earn you nothing.


[This message has been edited by Notafraid (edited 11/15/2004 6:06p).]

All:

Tithing is clearly a misunderstood topic. If you go study it closely you will find that NO ONE was ever instructed to tithe money (even though money was readily available when tithing was commanded).

God expects you to GIVE, not TITHE. You will be blessed for GIVING, not for TITHING. You give out of the abundance of what God gave you.

If you study tithing in Scripture, you will discover what a tithe is, who was required to tithe, and how it applied strictly to the OT society of Israel and not to NT Christians.

Coram Deo, EXACTLY! once again people not knowing the question...