Tithe before-tax or after-tax income?

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Notafraid
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quote:

Tithing is clearly a misunderstood topic. If you go study it closely you will find that NO ONE was ever instructed to tithe money (even though money was readily available when tithing was commanded).

God expects you to GIVE, not TITHE. You will be blessed for GIVING, not for TITHING. You give out of the abundance of what God gave you.

If you study tithing in Scripture, you will discover what a tithe is, who was required to tithe, and how it applied strictly to the OT society of Israel and not to NT Christians.




Coram Deo is right. It is an OT thing…

Malachi 3:8 "Will a man rob God? Yet you are robbing Me! But you say, 'How have we robbed You?' In tithes and offerings. 9 "You are cursed with a curse, for you are robbing Me, the whole nation of you! 10 "Bring the whole tithe into the storehouse, so that there may be food in My house, and test Me now in this," says the LORD of hosts, "if I will not open for you the windows of heaven and pour out for you a blessing until it overflows.

You can take the position that no where in the NT is the believer commanded to give a specific amount. So now, it’s just up to whatever anyone wants to give. Don’t worry about filling the Lord’s storehouse, giving it even of your “first fruits”, or if you are robbing the Lord.. Now it’s all based on GIVING, so if you feel like giving a $10.00 tip to the Lord, then that’s up to you based on the amount of blessing that you want.

Now, I say that the tithe is a good standard, and symbol or representation of giving from the heart to the Lord. Not just out of my abundance, because anyone can give when they have abundance, but even when things do not seem like the money will stretch, commit to the Lord, and He will bless you. This is the one thing where the Lord calls on believers to test Him, and see if He will not open the storehouses of heaven.

I have never met a person who argued against the tithe and for just giving whatever he had the heart to give that did not have it in his heart to give even a 10th.

I have even heard the often wrong J Vernon McGee (man of great Arminian faith) argue that if some people gave a 10th , they wouldn’t be able to make it financially. As if the Lord would not provide, or even that His offer to open the windows of heaven had expired with the OT people.

So, Most prots believe that the judicial laws, and the ceremonial laws, were OT things fulfilled in Christ, but that the 10 commandments were still binding of all men everywhere. The tithe was established as a standard before any law, yet I suppose that if it’s not spelled out in the NT testament for some then it’s just an OT thing…

DaveAg77
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Notafraid:

Let's start with a question.....you stated "The tithe was established as a standard before any law"........where do you get this? If your answer is Abraham, then please define "tithe" and show how Abraham performed that definition.

The Malachi passage cannot be seen in its true interpretation until "tithe" is properly defined from Scripture.

[This message has been edited by Coram Deo (edited 11/16/2004 11:18a).]
Notafraid
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Coram Deo

quote:

Let's start with a question.....you stated "The tithe was established as a standard before any law"........where do you get this? If your answer is Abraham, then please define "tithe" and show how Abraham performed that definition.

The Malachi passage cannot be seen in its true interpretation until "tithe" is properly defined from Scripture.



The word tithe literally means “tenth”, and it was a widespread practice of giving a tenth to a king or a god in the ancient near east long before Abraham gave the offering in Genesis 14:20 to Melchizedek (being a type of Christ). It was later codified in Mosaic law, not as simply an arbitrary number with which to test only OT Jews, but because of it’s being such an established standard.

Let me ask you this… If you believe Judicial laws expired with Israel, and ceremonial laws were fulfilled in Christ, which is the tithe? Is it a judicial law with which the Lord ruled over the nation of Israel, or is it a ceremonial law that pointed to and was fulfilled in Christ? If it’s judicial, then how? If it’s ceremonial, just exactly how is the tithe fulfilled in Christ? It seems to be quite unique in more than just making an appearance before Moses lived.



[This message has been edited by Notafraid (edited 11/17/2004 8:14a).]
Longhorn 97
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"Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you tithe mint and dill and cummin, and have neglected the weightier provisions of the law: justice and mercy and faithfulness; but these are the things you should have done without neglecting the others."

Doesn't seem like He's abolishing the tithe at all.

I tithe off gross.
AgGermany
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The point is that this is NOT a legalistic issue as it was to the Jews. It is a "tax" and nothing to do from the heart which IS required in giving. Abraham's gift to Mel. had nothing to do with the Tithe to support the priesthood of the Jews after Moses.

The Tithe was abolished along with all the other requirements of the Law of Moses: the Sabbath, Levitical priesthood, Eating and ceremonial requirements, Judicial requirements all abolished. (Sabbath being 1 of the ten)

NotA, Sure it is an example, but not in the legalistic Jewish example mode. Abraham also sacrificed animals and it had nothing to do with the legalism placed on Moses. Just as Sunday has nothing to do with the requirements of the Jewish Sabbath (a mere shadow). Most Protestant don't understand this.
MidnightBevo
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Tithing/giving is an act of worship. You shoudl give as Lord moves your heart. Wife and I fall under the "first fruits" group, but don't impose that on anyone else. We also try to give to missionaries, other special needs in the churh and volunteer time.

For those who give less because they're Pastor drives a BMW I would say this. If he drives one at the exspense of the church ministries then you probably have a problem that is deeper than what you tithe.

However, if he drives one because it was given to him or you happen to go to a large/affluent church that can pay its Pastor a big salary then don't berudge him it, or allow that to affect how you give back to the Lord. The Bible clearly says that Priests(in our case pastors) are recipients of the first fruits given to God(just because its OT doesn't mean its irrelevant). They are set apart by God for his specific purpose and are to be treated as such. They will also be held to a higher standard when they come before the Lord. Church Leaders/missionaries were never meant to live below the lowest income of their congregation. Take a close look at the OT and the 1st Century church. They were consistently given the best by those that truly follow God.

quote:
I wonder how many people actually pay 10% of their income to their church. I do it, but I kind of thought I was in the minority.


Sadly, this is true. Our Church membership rose by like 80% last year, but the donations only rose like 12-14%. I know there is not a direct correlation because different people have different incomes, but we are basically in a middle class area and there shouldn't be that big a disparity.



*In the interest of being above reporach I am a lay minister with a ministy organization(basically a domestic missionary), and as such have to raise financial support. So my views on religious leasdership come from that angle. My wife and I live on a middle class income and have supporters who I know make considerably less than we do, but I have no quams about that whatsoever.
DaveAg77
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NotAfraid:

I don't have time tonight to address this as I would like so I will try to do so in a day or two as time permits.

I will say this.......
quote:
and it was a widespread practice of giving a tent to a king or a god in the ancient near east long before Abraham gave the offering


if Abraham gave Melchizidek a tent, I'm sure it was because he needed a new one!


[This message has been edited by Coram Deo (edited 11/18/2004 3:21p).]
AgGermany
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Midnight, "The Bible clearly says that Priests(in our case pastors) are recipients of the first fruits given to God(just because its OT doesn't mean its irrelevant)."

That logic is incorrect, it is another example of dragging bits and pieces of the Jewish economy into "Christianity."

Hebrews 7:12
For when there is a change of the priesthood, there must also be a change of the law.

Tithing was a LAW, it has changed.

1 Peter 2:9
But you are a chosen people, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people belonging to God, that you may declare the praises of him who called you out of darkness into his wonderful light.

The priest were born into the priesthood, that has changed.

Your idea of what a Pastor is also a repeatedly mistaken notion by Protestants. The New Testament has a pattern and the Old Testament has its purpose, and its purpose is to lead you to the truth found in the New Testament.

I am not trying to pound but to provoke positively.

Re: the growth in numbers and the drop in average giving, seems typical human nature for new members, the church should be the school of the Bible and with maturity would come more mature mindful giving. This is a huge concept in the NT.

[This message has been edited by AgGermany (edited 11/18/2004 7:58a).]
DaveAg77
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Before I reply to the previous response by Notafraid, I would first like to address the group as a whole with some general comments.
First, there is a distinction to be made between three terms we often interchange when discussing the principles of Biblical giving. Those terms are giving, tithing, and firstfruits. Let me say upfront, these three terms ARE NOT THE SAME !. They are distinct terms and should not carelessly be used incorrectly, lest we have misunderstandings, which I find very prevalent today.

Giving is just what the name implies - it includes what we give to God. It is a very broad term and includes to some degree each of the other two and more. There are freewill offerings, mandatory offerings, tithes, firstfruit offerings; there is giving of things other than finances, like time; there is sacrificial giving, where there is a personal cost attached to the giving of the gift. It's a very broad category.

Firstfruits is a subset of giving; a very specific kind. Examples in scripture include agriculture and farming, such as giving the first of a crop to God in faith of what the entire crop will bring forth. Other examples include the required giving of the firstborn, a type of firstfruits of that which opened the womb. These were required giving in the OT economy. It never declares, for instance, in the case of your upcoming crop, how much or how big the firstfruits offering was, but it was the first. Many today use this as a guideline on giving to God, by giving the "first" of their income, etc.

Tithing is another animal altogether. As NotAfraid rightly said, all that "tithe" means is a "tenth". I will go into more detail on this shortly.
One of the terminology abuses I hear a lot, which irritates me to no end, is when someone says, "Well I tithe 20% to the church." I want to tell them that this is impossible. 10% never equals 20%. You can only "tithe" 10%, by definition. You can "give" any amount, but you can only "tithe" 10%. The term "tithe" has taken on a new meaning with many today.

Since many times when I come down hard against tithing I am critized for attacking giving. I want to say at the outset that this is not so. I am a firm believer in Biblical giving. There are numerous OT examples of freewill giving. This was how the temple was maintained when it fell in disrepair - giving. This is how the tabernacle in Moses' time was adorned - giving. Paul commanded us to be givers. We are never told in the NT how much to give but to give generously, bountifully, not grudgingly, as he purposes in his heart. We are to excel in giving. It all belongs to God anyway. This is what we are to do. This is NOT tithing, but giving, and should be called what it is.

Okay, what about tithing? What is it? Is it ceremonial or judicial in its being and hence, not for Christians, or is it valid for today? Here is what many people tell me that tithing is: They say tithing is giving 10% of your income to God. Some say 10% of the gross income; others say 10% of their net income. But, it seems, they ALL say 10% of their income. I am told that the tithe is not mandatory, but recommended; it is very highly encouraged and God tells us we should do it. If we tithe, we will receive God's blessings, moreso than if we don't. The tithe is to go to the "storehouse", which is the house of worship today. This is to support the day-to-day activities of the church and pay the preacher, much like the OT tithe supported the priests. This is what I am told and I am convinced is the main view of the Christian today.

My problem with this is simple. It's not what the Bible teaches. So........what does the Bible teach?

The majority of the occurrences of "tithe" or "tithing" in the Bible is found in the OT. In the OT law, tithing was the mechanism in the economy of God's people to support the tribe of Levi by imposing what is the equivalent of a "tax" on the other tribes. It really is more complicated than that because of how it is interwoven in the theocracy of Israel. God did not give the sons of Levi the same inheritance of land that He gave the others. He also put the tribe of Levi in charge of the tasks surrounding the corporate worship of God as He instructed in His law. All the priests were from the sons of Levi. The tithe was collected from all the rest of the tribes and given to the sons of Levi, both for worship and for their sustenance. No tithe meant the Levites had to go to work away from their temple/tabernacle duties to support their families, which caused neglect and downfall in the corporate worship.

Okay, the Israelites were commanded in their law to tithe. What were they to tithe? Interestingly enough, the ONLY things they are told to tithe are things from the land - their crops (including trees) and their livestock. Never were they commanded to tithe money. Or fish. Only stuff from the land. (I'll give my explanation for this later). Tithes could be turned into money for travel, but they had to be converted back upon arrival. (Yes, they HAD MONEY THEN). Tithes could be eaten. Sometimes they were to be eaten by the person giving the tithe. You just don't find anywhere a requirement for the carpenter to give 10% of his income to the Levites. It's not there! You DO find those people giving offerings.

What about those tithing verses like Malachi 3? I have to ask that you look at the context and see to whom they were addressed. In Malachi, the priests were being addressed for their violations as priests. One of those was in what they accepted as offerings and tithes. They were not following God's instructions and were being chastised for it. Not only that, their indiscretions and failure to do as God commanded caused God to withhold his blessings on the people until His laws of tithing were properly followed. Is this a verse addressed to us today? Absolutely NOT. In its context it fits strictly with the OT practice of tithing.

Is tithing for today or did it end? Some would have you believe that because Jesus endorsed the current practice of tithing in Matt 23 that Jesus was endorsing tithing today. After all, Matt is NT, isn't it? Yes, and No. While Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John are part of our NT, we mistakenly think that they occurred in what we call NT times. They took place before the cross, so all the events during those books were during a time the Jews lived under OT law. Jesus was merely endorsing the fact that AT THAT TIME they had to follow the law. After he performed a healing, Jesus told the man to go to the priest. This was in following with the law. Jesus fulfilled the law perfectly; He kept the law in all points. Okay, when did the tithe end? When the entire sacrificial system of worship ended, tithing ended. It was an essential part of that system. When Jesus died on the cross, He put to an end the need for those sacrifices, because He was The Sacrifice. The role of the priest was changed as we ushered in the priesthood of the believer. The tithe went away with the system. Now, did the system end at that time? No, because the unbelieving Jews continued their sacrificial worship until it came to a halt in 70 AD with the fall of Jerusalem. In reality though, Jesus ended it on the cross.

Did anyone in the NT teach tithing? No, we don't see any evidence of that. In fact, the silence of scripture in this area makes a deafening point. If Peter, Paul and the apostles taught tithing, they would have a big problem. If they taught tithing according to the Law as I mention above, they would be teaching the opposite of what Hebrews and Galations teach about the law. If they taught tithing as a required giving for the new church, the Jews would be up in arms about this.........something we just don't see at all in the NT. Instead, the NT leaders taught GIVING. Tithing was a part of the law in the past that was no more.

What about those verses on tithing that pre-date the law? The ones in Genesis with Abraham, Melchizedek, and Jacob? How do they tie in with tithing and the law? Let's take a brief look at them. In Gen 14, you have the story of Abraham on a mission to rescue his nephew Lot, who has been captured in a war between kings of the region. Abraham gathers up a small force, attacks, and recovers his nephew and all the goods taken in battle. He brings back the spoils, gives a tenth to Melchizedek, and returns the rest. Notafraid is right in that it was a widespread practice of giving a tenth to a king or a god at that time. that is what Abraham did - he gave a tenth of the spoil in battle, as was the custom of the day. Was this the basis for the Biblical tithe? I don't believe it is. Lets look closer. What we have here is this: Abraham made a one time gift that was a custom of the day. He gave away of that which was not his. There is no evidence he gave a tenth of all his increase on a regular basis; scripture is silent on this. Yet this is considered the basis for the tithe used in the law. If this is the foundation, why, then, when Israel takes spoil in battle, as in Numbers 31, are the spoils not tithed on? If Gen 14 sets the foundation, Num 31 should follow. What I see in Gen 14 is a single event occurrence of giving of a tenth according to ancient custom. There is no evidence to support it otherwise.

And Jacob in Gen 28? I have heard from some that his grandfather Abraham taught Jacob about tithing, so Jacob made a vow to tithe in Gen 28. I do not believe this has any Biblical merit or support. Instead let me put out a different perspective, which, if true, forms a logical basis for where the tithe of the law came from. In Gen 28, Jacob was running from Esau. He was going from his home with Isaac and Rebekah that he had known all his life to relatives from his grandfather Abraham's house in Haran. God visited him at Bethel in a vision (what is known as Jacob's Ladder). At this point, Jacob makes a vow. Remember how seriously God takes vows. Jacob promises a tenth of all if God would do the things God promised him in his vision. Jacob said (v20) "If God will be with me and keep me (promised in v15).....and give me bread to eat and clothing to put on, so that I come back to my father's house in peace (also promised in v15 - to bring him back to this land), ......and of all that You give me I will surely give a tenth to You". God showed him the land that would one day belong to his descendants (similar to what he did with Abraham) and promised that He would be with Jacob wherever he went. Jacob vowed giving a tenth to God if He did. What ever came of that vow? We know God takes them very seriously. That is addressed in Scripture over and over. What about this one? On the surface it seems that we have a promise to tithe. We also have a conditional situation. If God.......then Jacob. Where in scripture do we have resolution on this one? Most will say we don't. We never see Jacob tithe. In fact, during Jacob's lifetime, he does return but he never possesses the land promised by God. He lives in it like Abraham, but it's still a future promise. Here is where I think a lot of folks overlook a point. Jacob made a VOW. It will be repaid. I believe that when the children of Israel took over the land, and possessed the land, the promise from God was completed and Jacob's vow kicked in. Now, his descendents will pay a tithe on the land. Notice, Jacob vowed a tenth. Notice, the tithe described in the law is on the land -- fruit of the land and livestock. Interesting parallel. I think this is the correct source of where the tithe came from. If so, it reinforces that it is something that is obligatory only on the descendents of Jacob and then in response to fulfilling a vow.

In summary, please notice that there is little resemblance between what is called tithing today and what the Bible defines as tithing. We should be givers in the Biblical sense and not call what we do as "tithing"; it's not. It's giving. And we should give with all we have!

[This message has been edited by Coram Deo (edited 11/19/2004 7:37a).]
AgGermany
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right on!
Notafraid
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If your post were to be full of errors, and chocked full of wrong emphasis to build up your position, would you want to know where and what kind so you could change your position?

For example… In Mal 3:9, it says: "You are cursed with a curse, for you are robbing Me, the whole nation of you", yet you say that text was just addressing priests…

There are errors and wrong emphases throughout your post, and I was wondering if you would covet the correction, or if you would try to justify those kind of things, cause I am kind of short on time these days.


[This message has been edited by Notafraid (edited 11/19/2004 9:50a).]
SouthEndZone
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My belief is that tithing was in old testament times. The new testament teaches us that we should give as we prosper. I do believe the 10% in the old testament is a good standard but we are not bound to it. My wife and I actually contribute approx. 10% somewhere between pre and post tax.
DaveAg77
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Notafraid:


quote:
If your post were to be full of errors, and chocked full of wrong emphasis to build up your position, would you want to know where and what kind so you could change your position?

quote:
There are errors and wrong emphases throughout your post, and I was wondering if you would covet the correction, or if you would try to justify those kind of things, cause I am kind of short on time these days.


If you disagree with what I have posted, Notafraid, then please post where you disagree along with biblical support for your position. If you can show where your position has biblical merit and mine does not, and can refute my counterarguments, then I am always open to consider a change. I like to consider that I am always a student and still learning and have not cornered the market on truth, so I will change when fully persuaded to do so. I expect the same with one such as yourself.

I am still waiting to see why you hold a pro-tithe position and what you use to support it. I have already outlined mine. This apparently is one area in the Reformed camp where you and I appear to disagree.

quote:
For example… In Mal 3:9, it says: "You are cursed with a curse, for you are robbing Me, the whole nation of you", yet you say that text was just addressing priests…

In the book of Malachi, the first two chapters are specifically aimed at the priests, with ramifications for the people. Chapter 3 doesn't necessarily change the context. You can say that the text is spoken to the priests or to the people or to both, however IT DOES NOT CHANGE THE MESSAGE. The message is still addressing a LAW violation of the OT tithe. The context still does not allow you to apply Malachi 3 to today's Christian.

quote:
Mal 3:8-9 "Will a man rob God? Yet you have robbed Me! But you say, 'In what way have we robbed You?' In tithes and offerings. You are cursed with a curse, for you have robbed Me, even this whole nation."

This is a glaring sin, where Israel had stolen from God what was His right by divine law. Israel was corrupt in both the priesthood and the citizenry.

quote:
Mal 10 " 'Bring all the tithes into the storehouse, that there may be food in My house, and thry Me now in this', Says the Lord of Hosts, 'if I will not open for you the windows of heaven and pour out for you such blessing that there will not be room enough to receive it.'

When the tithes went unpaid, the priests were deprived and had to give up their ministry and begin farming to feed themselves and their families. The nation's religious life was hindered and the poor and the strangers suffered because they fed off the tithe as well. The REAL problem was the sin of disobedience in robbing God. The command was to bring all the tithes into the storehouse, which was a temple storeroom designed to receive the crops and animals brought as tithes. God promised that He would open the windows of heaven if they returned to Him. What did He mean? In other Scriptures, "windows of heaven" opening meant God would bring the good rains. In other words, if the people brought the tithes, then He would bless with plentiful rains so that the crops would be plentiful and there would be no lack. Since they were withholding the tithe, God was withholding the good rains, and because of it the people had less than if they had brought in their tithe. Yes, a giving principle can be gleaned from here, but nevertheless, the mechanixm in this instance was specific to OT Israel.

Notafraid
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Coram Deo,

Thanks for letting me know where you stand… Your answer to where you were wrong in Malachi was all I really needed to see to know what a tremendous waste of time it would be for me to continue on…

One thing I would like to know however is how much you personally find it in your heart to give. More or less than 10%?
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