Great honest discussion between a Protestant and a Catholic

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10andBOUNCE
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In reply to CWeezy17 • 10:24p, 8/6/26
AG
Thanks, that is a fair recap. It happens all the time that all
Protestants get lumped into one convenient bucket by the RCC or EO when he simply may not represent my belief or value system that closely.
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TeddyAg0422
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In reply to 10andBOUNCE • 10:51p, 8/6/26
AG
Well, if we want to go down the route of misconceptions, you could come to understand "RCC" is really not an accurate or fair name to describe what is basically just "Catholicism." The "R" in "RCC" is Roman. But yet Roman is just one of the 24 different rites that make up the Catholic Church. Don't exclude our brothers that might not be in Latin/Roman rite… they agree with us on these matters as well
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10andBOUNCE
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In reply to TeddyAg0422 • 11:06p, 8/6/26
AG
I'll call you whatever is the appropriate name.
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Thaddeus73
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5:45a, 8/7/26
AG
This pastor is such a nice change from Pastor MacArthur condemning all Catholics from his pulpit...
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nortex97
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In reply to TeddyAg0422 • 8:23a, 8/7/26
AG
'Catholic' means universal however, and that is just not a universal denomination, as it specifically excludes and is separate from many other denominations. I think RCC is fair if only for the purpose of clarifying what is being discussed/identified. It's not a slight/insult, just an appropriate identifier.
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MAROON
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In reply to CWeezy17 • 8:49a, 8/7/26
AG
Except in this case he is what would be considered a very conservative pastor. If the poster knew the background of his church, The Story - it would be understood
What do you boys want for breakfast BBQ ?.....OK Chili.
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10andBOUNCE
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In reply to MAROON • 9:09a, 8/7/26
AG
MAROON said:
Except in this case he is what would be considered a very conservative pastor. If the poster knew the background of his church, The Story - it would be understood

From what I could tell it did seem like this was true, so the fact of having a female pastor was kind of dumbfounding to be honest.
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Pierow
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In reply to dermdoc • 4:58p, 8/10/26
AG
dermdoc said:
10andBOUNCE said:
Was going to listen, but I see that The Story Church has a female Executive Pastor (his wife). Also bring in other female speakers based on their message history.


Interesting. Do you skip reading about Deborah in Judges or Priscilla and Lydia in the New Testament? And I am genuinely curious. I know what Timothy says but the Biblical women cited above seem to contradict the verses in Timothy.


The Bible has no contradictions. One is clear scripture, the other is implied. The women mentioned are implied to have been equal with the men. They were not. Paul is not only specific about the different roles between men and women, he states exactly why. It's very dangerous to go beyond what clear scripture says.
Acts 2:38
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Pierow
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In reply to dermdoc • 5:03p, 8/10/26
AG
dermdoc said:
10andBOUNCE said:
Ok. Were they mentioned as pastors or elders?

So female deacons are okay? And we do not have elders at our church. We have deacons.


What did Paul say was a descriptor of a deacon? Husband of one wife. Pretty hard to get around.

Paul appointed elders everywhere he went. Eldership is specifically addressed in scripture. Why a church would not have elders, is a flagrant disregard for what Paul said should be. You're probably a Baptist like I am. After long discussions, we (the church) appointed elders about five years ago. We've been growing little by little ever since.
Acts 2:38
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dermdoc
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In reply to Pierow • 5:05p, 8/10/26
AG
Pierow said:
dermdoc said:
10andBOUNCE said:
Was going to listen, but I see that The Story Church has a female Executive Pastor (his wife). Also bring in other female speakers based on their message history.


Interesting. Do you skip reading about Deborah in Judges or Priscilla and Lydia in the New Testament? And I am genuinely curious. I know what Timothy says but the Biblical women cited above seem to contradict the verses in Timothy.


The Bible has no contradictions. One is clear scripture, the other is implied. The women mentioned are implied to have been equal with the men. They were not. Paul is not only specific about the different roles between men and women, he states exactly why. It's very dangerous to go beyond what clear scripture says.

So I am correct that I should read 1 Timothy 2 3-4 that God desires to save all men? My Reformed/Calvinist friends say that Paul meant "all kinds of people". So that should be dangerous?
Because I'd God desires to save all people (as Scripture clearly says) then Calvinism doesn't work. Unless all people are the "elect".
No material on this site is intended to be a substitute for professional medical advice, diagnosis or treatment. See full Medical Disclaimer.
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Pierow
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In reply to dermdoc • 5:38p, 8/10/26
AG
dermdoc said:
Pierow said:
dermdoc said:
10andBOUNCE said:
Was going to listen, but I see that The Story Church has a female Executive Pastor (his wife). Also bring in other female speakers based on their message history.


Interesting. Do you skip reading about Deborah in Judges or Priscilla and Lydia in the New Testament? And I am genuinely curious. I know what Timothy says but the Biblical women cited above seem to contradict the verses in Timothy.


The Bible has no contradictions. One is clear scripture, the other is implied. The women mentioned are implied to have been equal with the men. They were not. Paul is not only specific about the different roles between men and women, he states exactly why. It's very dangerous to go beyond what clear scripture says.

So I am correct that I should read 1 Timothy 2 3-4 that God desires to save all men? My Reformed/Calvinist friends say that Paul meant "all kinds of people". So that should be dangerous?
Because I'd God desires to save all people (as Scripture clearly says) then Calvinism doesn't work. Unless all people are the "elect".


I love you, brother. You've given me no reason at all to doubt your salvation. However, we disagree on a few things.


All Christians are predestined, elected:

"For those whom He foreknew, He also predestined to become conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brethren; and these whom He predestined, He also called; and these whom He called, He also justified; and these whom He justified, He also glorified."
Romans 8:29-30 NASB1995

"All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will certainly not cast out. For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me. This is the will of Him who sent Me, that of all that He has given Me I lose nothing, but raise it up on the last day."
John 6:37-39 NASB1995

We could never lose our salvation:

"From the standpoint of the gospel they are enemies for your sake, but from the standpoint of God's choice they are beloved for the sake of the fathers; for the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable."
Romans 11:28-29 NASB1995

God knows who are his:

"Nevertheless, the firm foundation of God stands, having this seal, "The Lord knows those who are His," and, "Everyone who names the name of the Lord is to abstain from wickedness.""
2 Timothy 2:19 NASB1995

"But you do not believe because you are not of My sheep. My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me; and I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand. My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father's hand. I and the Father are one.""
John 10:26-30 NASB1995

We can get into the Greek, but mankind is what is alluded to when we preach the gospel. But again, it's always wise to follow the clear scripture and interpret anything that is not clear against it.

Acts 2:38
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dermdoc
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In reply to Pierow • 6:28p, 8/10/26
AG
Love you also.
Does Sxripture say God desires to save all men? And do you believe God creates the non elect knowing they are pre ordained to ECT hell?
No material on this site is intended to be a substitute for professional medical advice, diagnosis or treatment. See full Medical Disclaimer.
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Pierow
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In reply to dermdoc • 10:39a, 8/11/26
AG
dermdoc said:
Love you also.
Does Sxripture say God desires to save all men? And do you believe God creates the non elect knowing they are pre ordained to ECT hell?


I don't know if you've ever heard John MacArthur's discussion on this, but yes. God is sovereign, he does what he wills, and what he wills is always good. All those predestined, were predestined before the beginning of the world. There's no getting around that scripture. I don't want to worship a God that I can completely understand.

If I were to ask you, "who wrote Romans"? What would your answer be? Or, "who lives your Christian life"? Think hard about both questions.
Acts 2:38
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dermdoc
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In reply to Pierow • 10:51a, 8/11/26
AG
Pierow said:
dermdoc said:
Love you also.
Does Sxripture say God desires to save all men? And do you believe God creates the non elect knowing they are pre ordained to ECT hell?


I don't know if you've ever heard John MacArthur's discussion on this, but yes. God is sovereign, he does what he wills, and what he wills is always good. All those predestined, were predestined before the beginning of the world. There's no getting around that scripture. I don't want to worship a God that I can completely understand.

If I were to ask you, "who wrote Romans"? What would your answer be? Or, "who lives your Christian life"? Think hard about both questions.

Totally disagree. Predestination and election were thought of in a completely different fashion except by Augustine and then codified by Calvin. Double predestination was, and still might be, considered a heresy.
And if you can't get around your Scriptural translation of election/predestination, then I can't get around 1 Timothy 2 3-4 and 2 Peter 3 9 which clearly state God desires all men to be saved. Unless you insert words to make your theology work.
God desiring ALL men to be saved kind of dismantles Calvinism in my opinion. And many other theologians agree.
We will agree to disagree.
No material on this site is intended to be a substitute for professional medical advice, diagnosis or treatment. See full Medical Disclaimer.
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Pierow
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In reply to dermdoc • 11:21a, 8/11/26
AG
dermdoc said:
Pierow said:
dermdoc said:
Love you also.
Does Sxripture say God desires to save all men? And do you believe God creates the non elect knowing they are pre ordained to ECT hell?


I don't know if you've ever heard John MacArthur's discussion on this, but yes. God is sovereign, he does what he wills, and what he wills is always good. All those predestined, were predestined before the beginning of the world. There's no getting around that scripture. I don't want to worship a God that I can completely understand.

If I were to ask you, "who wrote Romans"? What would your answer be? Or, "who lives your Christian life"? Think hard about both questions.

Totally disagree. Predestination and election were thought of in a completely different fashion except by Augustine and then codified by Calvin. Double predestination was, and still might be, considered a heresy.
And if you can't get around your Scriptural translation of election/predestination, then I can't get around 1 Timothy 2 3-4 and 2 Peter 3 9 which clearly state Hod desires all men to be saved. Unless you insert words to make your theology work.
God desiring ALL men to be saved kind of dismantles Calvinism in my opinion. And many other theologians agree.
We will agree to disagree.


Roger that. I understand your point. But we still have our names written in the book of life. That's all that matters.
Acts 2:38
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dermdoc
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In reply to Pierow • 11:27a, 8/11/26
AG
Thanks for the nice post. This might interest you.
https://www.google.com/search?q=eastern+orthodox+view+of+election+predestination&client=safari&hs=3q5&sca_esv=8d0818874bd6c6ba&channel=iphone_bm&sxsrf=APpeQnvC4gSYJV2JiqodOgX78HpjHWjlqw
No material on this site is intended to be a substitute for professional medical advice, diagnosis or treatment. See full Medical Disclaimer.
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Pierow
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In reply to dermdoc • 11:32a, 8/11/26
AG
dermdoc said:
Thanks for the nice post. This might interest you.
https://www.google.com/search?q=eastern+orthodox+view+of+election+predestination&client=safari&hs=3q5&sca_esv=8d0818874bd6c6ba&channel=iphone_bm&sxsrf=APpeQnvC4gSYJV2JiqodOgX78HpjHWjlqw

I will certainly watch. Thank you.
Acts 2:38
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10andBOUNCE
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10:09p, 8/27/26
AG
Alright Catholic friends, help me make sense of this one.

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Thaddeus73
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5:39a, 8/28/26
AG
It's not idolatry UNLESS you believe the skull or statue is a god. Catholics do NOT believe that the skull or crown or statue is a god.




Joshua Bowing Before the Ark of the Covenant
In Joshua 7:6, the biblical account records that after the Israelites' sin with Achan, Joshua tore his clothes, fell facedown to the ground before the Ark of the Covenant, and remained there until evening. The elders of Israel did the same, and they all sprinkled dust on their heads as a sign of mourning and re.pentance.

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10andBOUNCE
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In reply to Thaddeus73 • 6:37a, 8/28/26
AG
You may need to help me make the jump from the ark of God to the skull of a dead saint that is being adorned with a crown.
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Thaddeus73
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7:50a, 8/28/26
AG
You can bow down before a holy object like a relic without it being idolatry. You bow down because it is holy, not God...
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Faithful Ag
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In reply to Thaddeus73 • 8:26a, 8/28/26
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Faithful Ag
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In reply to 10andBOUNCE • 8:27a, 8/28/26
Worship is sacrifice. There is no sacrifice going on in this video and nobody participating thinks the skull is a god.

The evangelical Protestant tradition has eliminated sacrifice (the Eucharist) from worship making it difficult to identify what real worship looks like.

The altar was removed and replaced with a simple lectern. The liturgy replaced by praise and "worship" music coming to you from stage right. The focus of Sunday "service" has become a pastor bringing you the word (briefly) followed by his/her sermon or interpretation on the Scripture they chose to talk about that day.
.
I don't mean to be offensive, but non-liturgical Protestants have no framework to understand what they are seeing here in this veneration, while no Catholic is confused or thinks this is worship.

Take this Lakepointe "worship service" for example….
-The first 20 minutes is a Christian rock concert with full production quality and lights, etc.
-after the concert they spend a few minutes of baptisms
- then comes the main event and the preacher takes the stage in his t shirt and jeans to bring out "the word". Lakepointe is going through the "fire passages of God" (Exodus 2 & 3). I count 12 total verses read in the ENTIRE service of an hour and twenty minutes.
Pastor Josh gives a very entertaining and captivating 40 minute talk and I'm glad I listened to it. However, what this is NOT is worship, so I'm NOT surprised he is confused and has difficulty understanding veneration vs. worship.
- closing encore concert
- Give us your money



So Lakepointe offers a 20-minute warm up concert, followed by a 40-minute talk with a dozen or so scripture verses read, and closes with an encore song or two. And then Lakepointe is focused on what Catholics are doing wrong?

The Holy Sacrifice of the Mass is worship. Eucharistic Adoration is worship because the Eucharist IS God. Everything else, no matter what an outsider might think because of how it looks or appears to them (ie veneration) is NOT worship. If you know what right worship is this is not difficult to understand.
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Martin Q. Blank
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In reply to Thaddeus73 • 8:33a, 8/28/26
Thaddeus73 said:
It's not idolatry UNLESS you believe the skull or statue is a god. Catholics do NOT believe that the skull or crown or statue is a god.




Joshua Bowing Before the Ark of the Covenant
In Joshua 7:6, the biblical account records that after the Israelites' sin with Achan, Joshua tore his clothes, fell facedown to the ground before the Ark of the Covenant, and remained there until evening. The elders of Israel did the same, and they all sprinkled dust on their heads as a sign of mourning and re.pentance.


Wasn't God between the two angels?
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Bob Lee
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In reply to Martin Q. Blank • 8:56a, 8/28/26
AG
What is inherently idolatrous about what they're doing in your view?
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Faithful Ag
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In reply to Martin Q. Blank • 9:00a, 8/28/26
Martin Q. Blank said:
Thaddeus73 said:
It's not idolatry UNLESS you believe the skull or statue is a god. Catholics do NOT believe that the skull or crown or statue is a god.




Joshua Bowing Before the Ark of the Covenant
In Joshua 7:6, the biblical account records that after the Israelites' sin with Achan, Joshua tore his clothes, fell facedown to the ground before the Ark of the Covenant, and remained there until evening. The elders of Israel did the same, and they all sprinkled dust on their heads as a sign of mourning and re.pentance.


Wasn't God between the two angels?

Are they worshiping God or the Arc? Similarly, wasn't God inside our Blessed Mother Mary? However, we do not worship Mary despite how it may appear.

Worship is reserved for God and God alone.

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Martin Q. Blank
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In reply to Bob Lee • 9:07a, 8/28/26
Bob Lee said:
What is inherently idolatrous about what they're doing in your view?

Who?
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Martin Q. Blank
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In reply to Faithful Ag • 9:15a, 8/28/26
Faithful Ag said:
Martin Q. Blank said:
Thaddeus73 said:
It's not idolatry UNLESS you believe the skull or statue is a god. Catholics do NOT believe that the skull or crown or statue is a god.




Joshua Bowing Before the Ark of the Covenant
In Joshua 7:6, the biblical account records that after the Israelites' sin with Achan, Joshua tore his clothes, fell facedown to the ground before the Ark of the Covenant, and remained there until evening. The elders of Israel did the same, and they all sprinkled dust on their heads as a sign of mourning and re.pentance.


Wasn't God between the two angels?

Are they worshiping God or the Arc? Similarly, wasn't God inside our Blessed Mother Mary? However, we do not worship Mary despite how it may appear.

Worship is reserved for God and God alone.


They are worshiping God at the Ark.
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Bob Lee
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In reply to Martin Q. Blank • 9:16a, 8/28/26
AG
Martin Q. Blank said:
Bob Lee said:
What is inherently idolatrous about what they're doing in your view?

Who?


Cardinal Parolin and everyone in attendance during the coronation of St. Agatha's reliquary. From the video you posted.
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Bob Lee
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In reply to Bob Lee • 9:18a, 8/28/26
AG
Bob Lee said:
Martin Q. Blank said:
Bob Lee said:
What is inherently idolatrous about what they're doing in your view?

Who?


Cardinal Parolin and everyone in attendance during the coronation of St. Agatha's reliquary. From the video you posted.


I'm sorry. That wasn't you. I meant that question for the guy who posted the video.
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Faithful Ag
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In reply to Martin Q. Blank • 9:26a, 8/28/26
Martin Q. Blank said:
Faithful Ag said:
Martin Q. Blank said:
Thaddeus73 said:
It's not idolatry UNLESS you believe the skull or statue is a god. Catholics do NOT believe that the skull or crown or statue is a god.




Joshua Bowing Before the Ark of the Covenant
In Joshua 7:6, the biblical account records that after the Israelites' sin with Achan, Joshua tore his clothes, fell facedown to the ground before the Ark of the Covenant, and remained there until evening. The elders of Israel did the same, and they all sprinkled dust on their heads as a sign of mourning and re.pentance.


Wasn't God between the two angels?

Are they worshiping God or the Arc? Similarly, wasn't God inside our Blessed Mother Mary? However, we do not worship Mary despite how it may appear.

Worship is reserved for God and God alone.


They are worshiping God at the Ark.
we are recalling this very thing every time we venerate the Theotokos.
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Martin Q. Blank
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In reply to Faithful Ag • 9:33a, 8/28/26
Faithful Ag said:
Martin Q. Blank said:
Faithful Ag said:
Martin Q. Blank said:
Thaddeus73 said:
It's not idolatry UNLESS you believe the skull or statue is a god. Catholics do NOT believe that the skull or crown or statue is a god.




Joshua Bowing Before the Ark of the Covenant
In Joshua 7:6, the biblical account records that after the Israelites' sin with Achan, Joshua tore his clothes, fell facedown to the ground before the Ark of the Covenant, and remained there until evening. The elders of Israel did the same, and they all sprinkled dust on their heads as a sign of mourning and re.pentance.


Wasn't God between the two angels?

Are they worshiping God or the Arc? Similarly, wasn't God inside our Blessed Mother Mary? However, we do not worship Mary despite how it may appear.

Worship is reserved for God and God alone.


They are worshiping God at the Ark.

we are recalling this very thing every time we venerate the Theotokos.

Where is she?
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10andBOUNCE
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In reply to Faithful Ag • 10:14a, 8/28/26
AG
I am not a Lakepointe guy myself, so won't bother defending anything they do. Was dozens of these videos to choose from.
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10andBOUNCE
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In reply to Faithful Ag • 10:17a, 8/28/26
AG
Faithful Ag said:
The evangelical Protestant tradition has eliminated sacrifice (the Eucharist) from worship making it difficult to identify what real worship looks like.

I would disagree there. Psalm 51:16-17 describes the true sacrifice that pleases God.

For you will not delight in sacrifice, or I would give it;
you will not be pleased with a burnt offering.
The sacrifices of God are a broken spirit;
a broken and contrite heart, O God, you will not despise.
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10andBOUNCE
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In reply to Faithful Ag • 10:18a, 8/28/26
AG
Quote:
I don't mean to be offensive, but non-liturgical Protestants have no framework to understand what they are seeing here in this veneration, while no Catholic is confused or thinks this is worship.

Hence why I asked...this wasn't a gotcha or something. Trying to understand where this type of thing came from. Does the Apocrypha or other books in the Catholic Bible teach this sort of thing? Church Fathers? I am unaware.
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