Great honest discussion between a Protestant and a Catholic

4,794 Views | 120 Replies | Last: 5 days ago by 10andBOUNCE
Zobel
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AG
10andBOUNCE said:

Faithful Ag said:

The evangelical Protestant tradition has eliminated sacrifice (the Eucharist) from worship making it difficult to identify what real worship looks like.

I would disagree there. Psalm 51:16-17 describes the true sacrifice that pleases God.

For you will not delight in sacrifice, or I would give it;
you will not be pleased with a burnt offering.
The sacrifices of God are a broken spirit;
a broken and contrite heart, O God, you will not despise.

Read the rest of the psalm, please.
The Banned
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Thaddeus73 said:

It's not idolatry UNLESS you believe the skull or statue is a god. Catholics do NOT believe that the skull or crown or statue is a god.




Joshua Bowing Before the Ark of the Covenant
In Joshua 7:6, the biblical account records that after the Israelites' sin with Achan, Joshua tore his clothes, fell facedown to the ground before the Ark of the Covenant, and remained there until evening. The elders of Israel did the same, and they all sprinkled dust on their heads as a sign of mourning and re.pentance.



Way more examples than just the ark. People in the OT bowed down/lay prostrate in front of angels, other people, kings, etc, etc.

It's the same with the "graven images" issue. AFTER God tells them to make no graven images to worship, He commands Moses to make a graven image of a bronze serpent to stare at. We can have and look at images without worshipping them, and we can bow before them without worshipping them.
Faithful Ag
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10andBOUNCE said:

Quote:

I don't mean to be offensive, but non-liturgical Protestants have no framework to understand what they are seeing here in this veneration, while no Catholic is confused or thinks this is worship.

Hence why I asked...this wasn't a gotcha or something. Trying to understand where this type of thing came from. Does the Apocrypha or other books in the Catholic Bible teach this sort of thing? Church Fathers? I am unaware.
All of the above including the scriptures in the smaller, incomplete Protestant OT. More importantly it comes from fulfillment of Judaism in Jesus Christ and comes to us through the Apostolic faith. This type of thing is everywhere throughout Church history and practice…at least in the Appstolic ancient Churches
Zobel
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AG
Moses explains this clearly in Deuteronomy 4. "Since you saw no form on the day that the Lord spoke to you at Horeb out of the midst of the fire, beware lest you act corruptly by making a carved image for yourselves, in the form of any figure, the likeness of male or female, the likeness of any animal that is on the earth, the likeness of any winged bird that flies in the air, the likeness of anything that creeps on the ground, the likeness of any fish that is in the water under the earth."

The issue isn't statuary in the abstract, it's two things:

- worshipping another god instead of God (explicitly forbidden); and
- worshipping the True God in the wrong form, depicted the way the nations depict their gods

This isn't a blanket prohibition on objects, images, or on venerating people, etc. It is about <worship> and <God>.

Incidentally this is why we depict icons of Christ because we did receive Him as a Man, saw him as a Man, "that which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our own eyes, which we have gazed upon and touched with our own hands" etc.
10andBOUNCE
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AG
Zobel said:

10andBOUNCE said:

Faithful Ag said:

The evangelical Protestant tradition has eliminated sacrifice (the Eucharist) from worship making it difficult to identify what real worship looks like.

I would disagree there. Psalm 51:16-17 describes the true sacrifice that pleases God.

For you will not delight in sacrifice, or I would give it;
you will not be pleased with a burnt offering.
The sacrifices of God are a broken spirit;
a broken and contrite heart, O God, you will not despise.

Read the rest of the psalm, please.

I didn't know we were supposed to continue with whole burnt offerings.
10andBOUNCE
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AG
Faithful Ag said:

10andBOUNCE said:

Quote:

I don't mean to be offensive, but non-liturgical Protestants have no framework to understand what they are seeing here in this veneration, while no Catholic is confused or thinks this is worship.

Hence why I asked...this wasn't a gotcha or something. Trying to understand where this type of thing came from. Does the Apocrypha or other books in the Catholic Bible teach this sort of thing? Church Fathers? I am unaware.

All of the above including the scriptures in the smaller, incomplete Protestant OT. More importantly it comes from fulfillment of Judaism in Jesus Christ and comes to us through the Apostolic faith. This type of thing is everywhere throughout Church history and practice…at least in the Appstolic ancient Churches

ancient churches as in what the church in Acts did?
Zobel
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AG
So you're saying the Psalm doesn't apply to us? Which is it?
The Banned
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10andBOUNCE said:

Faithful Ag said:

10andBOUNCE said:

Quote:

I don't mean to be offensive, but non-liturgical Protestants have no framework to understand what they are seeing here in this veneration, while no Catholic is confused or thinks this is worship.

Hence why I asked...this wasn't a gotcha or something. Trying to understand where this type of thing came from. Does the Apocrypha or other books in the Catholic Bible teach this sort of thing? Church Fathers? I am unaware.

All of the above including the scriptures in the smaller, incomplete Protestant OT. More importantly it comes from fulfillment of Judaism in Jesus Christ and comes to us through the Apostolic faith. This type of thing is everywhere throughout Church history and practice…at least in the Appstolic ancient Churches

ancient churches as in what the church in Acts did?

The guys who believed in things like 2 Kings where touching Elisha's bones brings a dead man back to life. Or how handkerchiefs/aprons that touched Peter were sent out to heal sick people who weren't able to get to Peter.
10andBOUNCE
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AG
Of course it applies. Certain things have been fulfilled by the work of Christ.
10andBOUNCE
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AG
The Banned said:

10andBOUNCE said:

Faithful Ag said:

10andBOUNCE said:

Quote:

I don't mean to be offensive, but non-liturgical Protestants have no framework to understand what they are seeing here in this veneration, while no Catholic is confused or thinks this is worship.

Hence why I asked...this wasn't a gotcha or something. Trying to understand where this type of thing came from. Does the Apocrypha or other books in the Catholic Bible teach this sort of thing? Church Fathers? I am unaware.

All of the above including the scriptures in the smaller, incomplete Protestant OT. More importantly it comes from fulfillment of Judaism in Jesus Christ and comes to us through the Apostolic faith. This type of thing is everywhere throughout Church history and practice…at least in the Appstolic ancient Churches

ancient churches as in what the church in Acts did?

The guys who believed in things like 2 Kings where touching Elisha's bones brings a dead man back to life. Or how handkerchiefs/aprons that touched Peter were sent out to heal sick people who weren't able to get to Peter.

I mean, I see where you're going here and it is somewhat helpful....maybe not the part of putting a crown on a skull. But, I guess.
Zobel
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AG
ok, but now we're no longer talking about scripture. your "certain things" are arbitrary.

on the other hand, rather than fulfill canceling portions of scripture, we can understand that whole psalm quite easily. we recite it every liturgy actually. because we offer a sacrifice every liturgy - fulfilled, not fulfilled = canceled.
The Banned
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10andBOUNCE said:

The Banned said:

10andBOUNCE said:

Faithful Ag said:

10andBOUNCE said:

Quote:

I don't mean to be offensive, but non-liturgical Protestants have no framework to understand what they are seeing here in this veneration, while no Catholic is confused or thinks this is worship.

Hence why I asked...this wasn't a gotcha or something. Trying to understand where this type of thing came from. Does the Apocrypha or other books in the Catholic Bible teach this sort of thing? Church Fathers? I am unaware.

All of the above including the scriptures in the smaller, incomplete Protestant OT. More importantly it comes from fulfillment of Judaism in Jesus Christ and comes to us through the Apostolic faith. This type of thing is everywhere throughout Church history and practice…at least in the Appstolic ancient Churches

ancient churches as in what the church in Acts did?

The guys who believed in things like 2 Kings where touching Elisha's bones brings a dead man back to life. Or how handkerchiefs/aprons that touched Peter were sent out to heal sick people who weren't able to get to Peter.

I mean, I see where you're going here and it is somewhat helpful....maybe not the part of putting a crown on a skull. But, I guess.

For the same reason halos were included in early Christian art. It's symbolism of receiving the "crown of life" or "crown of glory" that is spoken of in the NT
10andBOUNCE
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AG
I thought Protestants were the symbolism people
10andBOUNCE
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AG
Zobel said:

ok, but now we're no longer talking about scripture. your "certain things" are arbitrary.

on the other hand, rather than fulfill canceling portions of scripture, we can understand that whole psalm quite easily. we recite it every liturgy actually. because we offer a sacrifice every liturgy - fulfilled, not fulfilled = canceled.

Would your position be that a broken spirit and contrite heart are not enough as it relates to what our sacrifice needs to be as people of God?

ETA...the eucharist is the offering of the people? I don't think I have been able to follow that before, if I have that right.
Zobel
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AG
No, the position is that sacrifices are welcome, and a part of a relationship with God. Psalm 50 (51 in your bible) is a psalm about repentance. Just like it is echoed time and again in the prophets, sacrifice isn't a path to forgiveness, it is part of the relationship that happens after you repent. You cant live a life of sin and blood, then offer sacrifices and hey presto all good. This psalm is the same message, once David repents, then he can bring his sacrifice to the altar. This is the same thing taught by the Lord - not, dont offer sacrifices, but "first be reconciled to your brother, and then come and offer your gift."

You can't say "God wants you to repent" and ignore the "and then offer the sacrifice."

As for the offering, St Paul tells us our offering is of ourselves - our rational worship, the worship of rational beings. Accordingly in the Liturgy we say multiple times that we offer ourselves, and each other, and our whole lives unto Christ Our God. The bread and wine are brought and we pray for the Holy Spirit to come down upon us and upon the Gifts, the Gifts are blessed and made to be the Body and Blood of God, and offered to Him as a sacrifice along with our sacrifice of praise. He is the One Who both offers and is offered, the One Who is received and is distributed. So we give ourselves to Him, He gives Himself to us.

Remember that the whole sacrificial system, the Tabernacle, was a copy of what Moses saw in Heaven, on the Mountain. In the Liturgy we participate in that, which is specifically the worship of the Heavenly Tabernacle, where Christ is the offering.
10andBOUNCE
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AG
Thanks, that makes more sense than what was in my head.
 
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