My church and small group have been studying Genesis for the better part of a month or so. In our small group discussion this week, the "Unseen Realm" book got brought up and peaked my interest. I have not read the book, but watched this short documentary and it stirred my interest even more. Since we have such a diverse group of Protestants, Catholics and Orthodox on this board, I was curious as to what individuals on this board think of this. Really just posting as a topic of conversation.

The book is excellent but not an easy read

Birthright by Timothy Alberino is really good and very accessible. He's in the same vein as Heiser.

Maximus Johnson said:

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My church and small group have been studying Genesis for the better part of a month or so. In our small group discussion this week, the "Unseen Realm" book got brought up and peaked my interest. I have not read the book, but watched this short documentary and it stirred my interest even more. Since we have such a diverse group of Protestants, Catholics and Orthodox on this board, I was curious as to what individuals on this board think of this. Really just posting as a topic of conversation.

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I believe we may go to the same church. Possibly different campuses.

I have fallen down the rabbit hole and it's been opening my excitement and understanding of scripture. It started with Unseen Realm. There is a 6 hour lecture on YouTube with Heiser.
I ended up joining Albereno's community because he has book studies on Birthright but also Cydonia. All has been fascinating. What I appreciate about Alberino is his willingness to say "this is theory" or "I don't know".

I'm enjoying the journey but I feel like this has given me more confidence in the gospel- especially because it makes sense of a lot of obscure Bible passages and actually gives a context and rational explanation.

Yes yes yes

This must come to the churches teaching and understanding.

This is faithful teaching of the Bible

Hiding from it is evil in my book. Lookin at you st. Augustine

piqued

You guys might enjoy "Judgment of the Nephilim" by Ryan Pitterson.

I read that recently, and it's fascinating.

Pitterson himself reads the Audible version, which is what I listened to.

An easier and more introductory read and/or listen is "The Unseen Battle" by Joel Muddamalle.

Basically all his info and inspiration is from Heiser. I've recommended it to a few friends and have received good feedback.

Blurry Creatures is great. As is Haunted Cosmos.
"The church" has done a great disservice in not delving deeper into matters of the spiritual realm.

Read the book a few years ago... Whether you agree or not, it's fascinating and has certainly sent me down a rabbit hole. As a poster mentioned above, it's helped strengthened my faith, as it's made a lot of scripture more clear to me.

"The church" has done a great disservice in not delving deeper into matters of the spiritual realm.

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Maybe you can expand on what you mean by this and what you define as the spiritual realm.

As a Catholic, it's all we talk about. Living out the gospel in our everyday life, wherever we are spiritually and physically is essentially the "Universal Call to Holiness" that is the foundation of our baptism.

Would like hear more. Will check out the video. Thx!

ETA: Maybe you are talking about demonology?

Looks like the Alberino episode will be dropping on JRE soon. I'm looking forward to listening!

I've dabbled in listening to Alberino and ever read some of "Birthright". I mostly appreciate his Christo-centricity and emphasis on the gospel. When he starts talking about aliens is when he starts to lose me a little, label me "open but cautious" on that front!

PabloSerna said:

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"The church" has done a great disservice in not delving deeper into matters of the spiritual realm.

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Maybe you can expand on what you mean by this and what you define as the spiritual realm.

As a Catholic, it's all we talk about. Living out the gospel in our everyday life, wherever we are spiritually and physically is essentially the "Universal Call to Holiness" that is the foundation of our baptism.

Would like hear more. Will check out the video. Thx!

ETA: Maybe you are talking about demonology?

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I am really not trying to divulge this thread into a Protestant vs Catholic debate. There are plenty of those on this site.

The previous poster is referring to the video I posted which is in reference to the unseen realm and the LORD or Yahweh's heavenly host and/or heavenly council. Those beings that are Elohim like God but not God. Yes, I agree with you that everything points to Jesus, but that is not what we are discussing here.

I have been studying Genesis 5 & 6 this week and there are a few things that point to the "unseen realm" and/or heavenly hosts that are very interesting:

21 When Enoch had lived 65 years, he became the father of Methuselah. 22 After he became the father of Methuselah, Enoch walked faithfully with God 300 years and had other sons and daughters. 23 Altogether, Enoch lived a total of 365 years. 24 Enoch walked faithfully with God; then he was no more, because God took him away.

Why was Enoch "taken away", but the remainder of the person(s) in Genesis 5 died?

4 The Nephilim were on the earth in those daysand also afterwardwhen the sons of God went to the daughters of humans and had children by them. They were the heroes of old, men of renown.

I think common commentary on this is that these were the Giants that the spies saw before they entered the promised land. But was it always Yahweh's plan to have the sons of God walk with his creation? What is he trying to tell his creation in this passage?

Thanks for that. I tap out when it gets to "demon sperm" because of our definitive understanding that angels (fallen or not) are pure spirits.

If it makes any sense, the RCC does teach that God uses principalities (angels) to maintain our world. We also understand that there was a battle in heaven between these principalities with a third being cast out. What is not taught is that evil is its own power. Rather a privation of good. God is the prime mover in everything.

Maximus Johnson said:

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I have been studying Genesis 5 & 6 this week and there are a few things that point to the "unseen realm" and/or heavenly hosts that are very interesting:

21 When Enoch had lived 65 years, he became the father of Methuselah. 22 After he became the father of Methuselah, Enoch walked faithfully with God 300 years and had other sons and daughters. 23 Altogether, Enoch lived a total of 365 years. 24 Enoch walked faithfully with God; then he was no more, because God took him away.

Why was Enoch "taken away", but the remainder of the person(s) in Genesis 5 died?

4 The Nephilim were on the earth in those daysand also afterwardwhen the sons of God went to the daughters of humans and had children by them. They were the heroes of old, men of renown.

I think common commentary on this is that these were the Giants that the spies saw before they entered the promised land. But was it always Yahweh's plan to have the sons of God walk with his creation? What is he trying to tell his creation in this passage?

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According to Ryan Pitterson in "Judgment of the Nephilim", the sons of God procreating with the daughters of men was Satan's way of trying to taint the gene pool and stop the coming Messiah. God had told him early on in Genesis 3:15:

Quote:

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I will put enmity between you and the woman, and between your offspring and her offspring; he shall bruise your head, and you shall bruise his heel."

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This is the first prophecy of the coming Redeemer, and Satan was trying to thwart it any way he could.

Then why was Enoch different from the other Nephilim? Was he not part of Satan's plan?

I kind of have a different view of the fall in which I believe that the serpent is more representative of evil human nature and the temptation of Satan more so than it was a talking snake, which is why I may not be understanding this clearly.

Just as the garden is not a physical earthly place and is more representative of being in the presence of Yahweh.

Maximus Johnson said:

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Then why was Enoch different from the other Nephilim? Was he not part of Satan's plan?

I kind of have a different view of the fall in which I believe that the serpent is more representative of evil human nature and the temptation of Satan more so than it was a talking snake, which is why I may not be understanding this clearly.

Just as the garden is not a physical earthly place and is more representative of being in the presence of Yahweh.

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Enoch was not a Nephilim.

Also, I don't think Satan was necessarily a literal snake, either, although he certainly could have taken that form. But Genesis 3:15 is referring to Satan bruising Jesus' heal, as happened on the Cross, and Jesus bruising Satan's head. Satan certainly received more damage (ultimate defeat) by the result of the Cross and Resurrection.

" Satan's way of trying to taint the gene pool "

Full stop. Jesus in John 8:44 calls the Pharisees sons of the devil for rejecting him and his followers. This more about following Christ and not a gene pool.

Im looking forward to Alberino on Joe Rogan, but he said in his community yesterday that most of the interview centered on giants and megaliths.

If this kind of topic really interests you, im going to encourage looking into the Alberino community. He has deep dive book studies on Cydonia and Birthright- (which is on episode 20 and still going) . Each episode of study is about 2 hours. Ive learned a ton leaning into these.

"Also, I don't think Satan was necessarily a literal snake, either, although he certainly could have taken that form"

Paul refers to Satan as the Prince of the power of the air, which we understand to mean more about the "invisible world" such as influence and temptation. While he does have real power (from God) I don't see how a talking snake, goat-man, helps his cause. Maybe to facinate his followers- but I can see things like pornography and greed being more effective.

I know this is me, a Catholic, speaking into a void- however I would like to shine a light into this rabbit hole with the following points:

1. The nature of good and evil. To me this is where the wheels can fall off the cart of the idea, particularly of spiritual realities like angels, that evil is somehow its own power. That the battle is between good and evil, when Jesus clearly gives us a new commandment to love one another. To love our enemies and pray for those that prosecute us. Evil must be understood as a privation, a loss, of good that is God. Just like cold is a measure of the loss of heat or darkness a loss of light.

2. Hidden knowledge versus public revelation. One of the more important aspects I have settled on is that public revelation ended with the death of the last apostle, John. Private revelation is something else, like inspirational writings of a mystic. All that we need to know about the Kingdom of God has been given to those that were present in the upper room at Pentecost. Yes, we can dive deeper, however it was necessary for God to become man to reveal himself to our limited minds. The church, led by those apostles and their successors are the true shepherds.

3. Fear. To me this is the trap that these types of rabbit holes can exploit. Again the words of Jesus that we should not be afraid. The unknown, mysterious writings that use figurative language can conjure up all sorts of fantastic beasts. The reality of evil is more closer to passions like lust, greed, arrogance, or pride to name a few deadly sins. Fear can lead us down a path that love was meant to be our guide.

Other than that- cool video!

PabloSerna said:

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" Satan's way of trying to taint the gene pool "

Full stop. Jesus in John 8:44 calls the Pharisees sons of the devil for rejecting him and his followers. This more about following Christ and not a gene pool.

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While I agree we are to follow Christ, I also know that Jesus had to be fully human (seed of the woman) and fully God in order to save us. Satan knew this, as well. Pitterson argues that he wanted to taint the Messianic line in order to stop that from happening.

That's what I was referring to.

A couple of follow up questions come to mind in light of your response:

1. The Immaculate conception of Mary. Original sin did enter the world, not through the seed of any fallen angel, but through the sin of Adam (and Eve). Mary was "full of grace" as written Luke 1:28 (St. Jerome translated). She was born without original sin. Did Lucifer misunderstand or underestimate the power of God- thinking this was about real offspring?

2. What is Lucifer's end game? We (RCC) teach that when God revealed the plan of the salvation of man, Lucifer understood his role completely. As the highest angel ever created by God, he could fully understand the role of the angelic principalities for all of time. I say time, but there is no time in heaven. We believe that this heavenly battle between the angels who rejected this plan saying "I will not serve" and other angels led by the Archangel Michael took place before the fall of man. After 1/3 of the angels fell to earth, their goal was to temp man into sin with lies and deceit. The first lie was spoken to Eve about the fruit of the tree. We believe that the end goal of those fallen angels led by Lucifer is to lead man away from God.

PabloSerna said:

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A couple of follow up questions come to mind in light of your response:

1. The Immaculate conception of Mary. Original sin did enter the world, not through the seed of any fallen angel, but through the sin of Adam (and Eve). Mary was "full of grace" as written Luke 1:28 (St. Jerome translated). She was born without original sin. Did Lucifer misunderstand or underestimate the power of God- thinking this was about real offspring?

2. What is Lucifer's end game? We (RCC) teach that when God revealed the plan of the salvation of man, Lucifer understood his role completely. As the highest angel ever created by God, he could fully understand the role of the angelic principalities for all of time. I say time, but there is no time in heaven. We believe that this heavenly battle between the angels who rejected this plan saying "I will not serve" and other angels led by the Archangel Michael took place before the fall of man. After 1/3 of the angels fell to earth, their goal was to temp man into sin with lies and deceit. The first lie was spoken to Eve about the fruit of the tree. We believe that the end goal of those fallen angels led by Lucifer is to lead man away from God.

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1. I agree that sin entered the world through the sin of Adam and Eve. And Lucifer absolutely underestimated the power of God, or he would not have thought he could "ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God; I will also sit on the mount of the congregation on the farthest sides of the north; I will ascend above the heights of the clouds, I will be like the Most High." Isaiah 14:12-14.

2. Lucifer's end game now is to take as many people with him to Hell as he can. But Pitterson argues that before the birth of Jesus, he was still fighting with everything at his disposal to stop the Messiah from being born, and one of the ways he did this was by trying to taint the Messianic bloodline. I think it's very clear that Satan is very powerful, but he is not all knowing. Otherwise, I could ask you the same question about why he bothered to tempt Jesus. What was his end game if he knew that he would fail to get Jesus to sin?

Interesting enough, Aquinas provides an answer to why Jesus was tempted and then silenced the demons. The Angelic Doctor (Aquinas) whose writings have provided the Catholic Church much about what is known about angels says that exchange between Lucifer and Jesus was a test because Lucifer is not all knowing and needed to see if Jesus was in fact the messiah. Once he knew though- he knew exactly what it meant to his 1000 year reign- the end. Jesus was not ready to have that revealed until he fulfilled his mission. That is why he silenced the demons.

We cannot forget that God is still in control. All the demonic possessions, ouija board shenanigans and such are permitted by God for the ultimate good of man. A "Theo-drama" if you will.

PabloSerna said:

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Interesting enough, Aquinas provides an answer to why Jesus was tempted and then silenced the demons. The Angelic Doctor (Aquinas) whose writings have provided the Catholic Church much about what is known about angels says that exchange between Lucifer and Jesus was a test because Lucifer is not all knowing and needed to see if Jesus was in fact the messiah. Once he knew though- he knew exactly what it meant to his 1000 year reign- the end. Jesus was not ready to have that revealed until he fulfilled his mission. That is why he silenced the demons.

We cannot forget that God is still in control. All the demonic possessions, ouija board shenanigans and such are permitted by God for the ultimate good of man. A "Theo-drama" if you will.

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Agreed.

PabloSerna said:

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" Satan's way of trying to taint the gene pool "

Full stop. Jesus in John 8:44 calls the Pharisees sons of the devil for rejecting him and his followers. This more about following Christ and not a gene pool.

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It may or may not be that simple. Anyone who reads Biblical scripture needs to pay attention to the often boring, tedious but, important nature of lineage.

Genesis 5:4
"The days of Adam after he fathered Seth were 800 years; and he had other sons and daughters."

So, who became Cain's wife? I suppose it could have been a sister, a cousin, a niece...doesn't really say.

Why was Noah preserved when God flooded the Earth?

We don't see a divine word from God on intermarriage or incest until Leviticus; while still wandering the desert and before Canaan.

Those Mosaic laws in Leviticus were handed down for perfect reasons. I believe protecting the gene pool was a divine decision to preserve humanity; intellectually, physically, and spiritually. How would Moses' know anything about intermarriage causing abnormalities or genetic mutations during this period of humanity? He wouldn't but, God would.

We have to consider that timelines in heaven do not exist...God's plan, his "long game", is unfathomable and imperceptible to humankind but, it's not such a leap that a divine change was provided to guard a particular bloodline which leads back to his original genetic intent; which is, and always will be, well within God's purview.

Next year, Mel Gibson's new movie, The Resurrection of the Christ, will show this hidden realm world on the big screen. How anyone can try to understand theology without taking into account the reality of heaven and hell is beyond me. They certainly exist, and by our actions now on earth, we personally choose where we will wind up....