So if Dispensationalism is real, then ...

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Thaddeus73
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8:27p, 5/2/26
AG
Why did Jesus say that His Kingdom is not of this world, (but is in Heaven.)
Why did Jesus say that from now on He shall be seated at the right hand of the power of God? (In heaven, not in Jerusalem).
Why did Jesus say "Repent, for the Kingdom of God is at hand." (not 2000 years from now)
Why did Jesus say, " But if it is by the finger of God that I cast out demons, then the kingdom of God has come upon you.
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Howdy, it is me!
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In reply to Thaddeus73 • 6:47a, 5/3/26
AG
Thaddeus73 said:
Why did Jesus say that His Kingdom is not of this world, (but is in Heaven.)
Why did Jesus say that from now on He shall be seated at the right hand of the power of God? (In heaven, not in Jerusalem).
Why did Jesus say "Repent, for the Kingdom of God is at hand." (not 2000 years from now)
Why did Jesus say, " But if it is by the finger of God that I cast out demons, then the kingdom of God has come upon you.


I take it you're arguing against a literal 1,000 year reign here on earth?
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Thaddeus73
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12:18p, 5/3/26
AG
Yes....Nowhere does the bible say that he will reign in Jerusalem. It does say that His kingdom is not of this world, which would include Jerusalem..
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In reply to Thaddeus73 • 1:54p, 5/3/26
AG
Thaddeus73 said:
Yes....Nowhere does the bible say that he will reign in Jerusalem. It does say that His kingdom is not of this world, which would include Jerusalem..


I agree with you.
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Junction71
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9:46p, 5/3/26
AG
Zechariah 14:17---A Millenial Kingdom context says:

"And it will be that whichever of the families of the earth does not go up to Jerusalem to worship the King, the Lord Almighty (Messiah Jesus) then will be no rain on them."
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Martin Q. Blank
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In reply to Thaddeus73 • 10:17a, 5/4/26
Thaddeus73 said:
Yes....Nowhere does the bible say that he will reign in Jerusalem. It does say that His kingdom is not of this world, which would include Jerusalem..

That's premillennialism, not dispensationalism. The former is when Christ reigns. The later has to do with whether the covenant with Israel, et.al. and the church are substantially different or not.
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nortex97
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In reply to Thaddeus73 • 11:03a, 5/4/26
AG
The imagery of Jerusalem was an idea, not a set of stones/city boundaries, to most Jews and Christians alike, hence the long running debate about the 'city of lights' or on a hill, or 'new Jerusalem (Constantinople/Rome etc).

I've never comprehended the attempts by some Jews, Christians and muslims alike to make the old or new testaments about the literal city of Jerusalem. Yahweh/God cared so much about it that he facilitated the diaspora(s), destruction of it's walls, repeated invasions/conquering by foreign armies etc.

The archeological history is fascinating, sure, but that is what it is, to me.
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one MEEN Ag
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In reply to Thaddeus73 • 2:43p, 5/4/26
AG
Thaddeus73 said:
Yes....Nowhere does the bible say that he will reign in Jerusalem. It does say that His kingdom is not of this world, which would include Jerusalem..

There is some hints that Salem will be renewed/restored after the post judgement creation of new perfect earth. But at that rate its a game of who cares. My theology includes that the earth 'being made perfect' includes restoring Jerusalem but also returning Dallas to wilderness.
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DirtDiver
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3:32p, 5/4/26
Quote:
Why did Jesus say that His Kingdom is not of this world, (but is in Heaven.)
Why did Jesus say that from now on He shall be seated at the right hand of the power of God? (In heaven, not in Jerusalem).
Why did Jesus say "Repent, for the Kingdom of God is at hand." (not 2000 years from now)
Why did Jesus say, " But if it is by the finger of God that I cast out demons, then the kingdom of God has come upon you.


Is there room for a 3rd option vs it being an either-or discussion?

Yes, all of those references are true and I'm convinced there will be a literal 1,000 year reign of Christ on earth. Thy kingdom come, they will be done, on earth as it is in heaven.

...but wait, I thought the kingdom was already here? How as it not come?

An option not explored very much...the king was on earth "the kingdom of God was at hand". Israel being in the land and having a king was dependent upon their obedience.

1 Samuel 12

19 Then all the people said to Samuel, "Pray for your servants to the Lord your God, so that we may not die, for we have added to all our sins this evil by asking for ourselves a king." 20 Samuel said to the people, "Do not fear. You have committed all this evil, yet do not turn aside from following the Lord, but serve the Lord with all your heart. 21 You must not turn aside, for then you would go after futile things which can not profit or deliver, because they are futile. 22 For the Lord will not abandon His people on account of His great name, because the Lord has been pleased to make you a people for Himself. 23 Moreover, as for me, far be it from me that I should sin against the Lord by ceasing to pray for you; but I will instruct you in the good and right way. 24 Only fear the Lord and serve Him in truth with all your heart; for consider what great things He has done for you. 25 But if you still do wickedly, both you and your king will be swept away."

Did Israel embrace it's king or crucify Him?

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dermdoc
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In reply to Thaddeus73 • 4:34p, 5/4/26
AG
Thaddeus73 said:
Why did Jesus say that His Kingdom is not of this world, (but is in Heaven.)
Why did Jesus say that from now on He shall be seated at the right hand of the power of God? (In heaven, not in Jerusalem).
Why did Jesus say "Repent, for the Kingdom of God is at hand." (not 2000 years from now)
Why did Jesus say, " But if it is by the finger of God that I cast out demons, then the kingdom of God has come upon you.

I don't trust any doctrine basically invented out of whole cloth by one guy, Darby, in the mid 1800s.
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Thaddeus73
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5:36p, 5/4/26
AG
The Lord already fulfilled the land promise to the Jews. The promised land today is not a strip of land in the middle East; rather, it's heaven. The modern state of Israel has nothing to do with the biblical promise of land to the Jews.

Joshua 21: 43 Thus the Lord gave to Israel all the land which he swore to give to their fathers; and having taken possession of it, they settled there.
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DirtDiver
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8:15a, 5/5/26
Can you think of other promises that have yet to be fulfilled?
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traxter
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7:49p, 7/13/26
Didn't want to start a thread for this, since the video is kinda political, but it brings up some interesting thoughts on dispensationalism and its origins. Just if anyone wanted to watch, though you probably already know the stuff she mentions.

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Howdy, it is me!
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In reply to traxter • 2:37p, 7/14/26
AG
traxter said:
Didn't want to start a thread for this, since the video is kinda political, but it brings up some interesting thoughts on dispensationalism and its origins. Just if anyone wanted to watch, though you probably already know the stuff she mentions.



I did know some of this stuff but not all; thanks for sharing.
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CrackerJackAg
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10:15a, 7/17/26
AG
It's not…

I start these conversations with two questions

As a Christian do you agree with the statement "Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me." John 14:6

I've yet ever have anybody state anything but 100% affirmation.

Then you follow up with explaining to them what the concept of Dispensationalism is, ask if they agree, and then they suddenly struggle with it as it conflicts with the first statement.

I think it's a feel good knee jerk reaction people have when they hear "God has a special plan for Israel" or "I wouldn't count out the Jews because they've always been God special people"

Very rarely do people understand the theology behind Dispensationalism and a lot of them pretty quickly reject the concept once it's fully explained to them.
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CrackerJackAg
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10:29a, 7/17/26
AG
This is obviously a little bit of a nerdy history side quest but in regards to Christian Dispensationalism I find it pretty interesting.

Julian the Apostate, ruling a few decades after Constantine, rejected Christianity and actively sought its downfall. To strike a death blow to the faith, he attempted to rebuild the Temple in Jerusalem to explicitly counter Jesus's words in Matthew 24:2.

"Not one stone here will be left on another; every one will be thrown down"

Pagan historians of the time (Ammianus Marcellinus etc..) recorded that the rebuilding effort was stopped because "fearful balls of fire" burst from the foundations, burning the workmen and making the site inaccessible. The site was never completed despite considerable economic resources and Julian's death in Persia

The incredible irony here is that a pagan emperor tried to build the Third Temple to disprove Christianity and yet modern dispensationalists are out here cheering for and funding the exact same project.

They are literally trying to finish the work of an apostate pagan emperor (that was otherwise a pretty dope dude other than seeking the destruction of Christianity and all).

Satan never rests but he never has to work too hard as there are useful idiots always willing to do it for him.
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Howdy, it is me!
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In reply to CrackerJackAg • 11:59a, 7/17/26
AG
CrackerJackAg said:
This is obviously a little bit of a nerdy history side quest but in regards to Christian Dispensationalism I find it pretty interesting.

Julian the Apostate, ruling a few decades after Constantine, rejected Christianity and actively sought its downfall. To strike a death blow to the faith, he attempted to rebuild the Temple in Jerusalem to explicitly counter Jesus's words in Matthew 24:2.

"Not one stone here will be left on another; every one will be thrown down"

Pagan historians of the time (Ammianus Marcellinus etc..) recorded that the rebuilding effort was stopped because "fearful balls of fire" burst from the foundations, burning the workmen and making the site inaccessible. The site was never completed despite considerable economic resources and Julian's death in Persia

The incredible irony here is that a pagan emperor tried to build the Third Temple to disprove Christianity and yet modern dispensationalists are out here cheering for and funding the exact same project.

They are literally trying to finish the work of an apostate pagan emperor (that was otherwise a pretty dope dude other than seeking the destruction of Christianity and all).

Satan never rests but he never has to work too hard as there are useful idiots always willing to do it for him.


What an interesting piece of history! Thanks for sharing.
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Cheetah01
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In reply to CrackerJackAg • 2:18p, 8/2/26
AG
Why do you think John 14:6 disproves dispensationalism? I'm not sure how they relate.
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Cheetah01
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In reply to dermdoc • 2:32p, 8/2/26
AG
This isn't the case. Irenaeus taught these same concepts. To me, saying Darby made up this theology is like saying Luther made up salvation by faith alone. Just because the church did not teach it that way did not make it so. It also didn't mean the early church didn't believe the same things Luther believed.
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Silent For Too Long
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2:42p, 8/2/26
The earliest form of reading some kind of future temple and rebuilding of Isreal can be traced back to Iraneus and Hippolytus writing in the 2nd century.

Jesuit Catholics reintroduced a futurist interpretation of Revelations and Daniel in the1500s, three centuries before Darby.

Just an FYI. The roots of dispensationalism are both very old and were revived by Catholics, not Protestants.

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dermdoc
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In reply to Cheetah01 • 9:03p, 8/2/26
AG
Cheetah01 said:
This isn't the case. Irenaeus taught these same concepts. To me, saying Darby made up this theology is like saying Luther made up salvation by faith alone. Just because the church did not teach it that way did not make it so. It also didn't mean the early church didn't believe the same things Luther believed.

From my reading, not sure Irenaeus went as far as Darby.
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Silent For Too Long
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In reply to dermdoc • 9:18p, 8/2/26
dermdoc said:
Cheetah01 said:
This isn't the case. Irenaeus taught these same concepts. To me, saying Darby made up this theology is like saying Luther made up salvation by faith alone. Just because the church did not teach it that way did not make it so. It also didn't mean the early church didn't believe the same things Luther believed.

From my reading, not sure Irenaeus went as far as Darby.


He certainly didn't go as far, but the early seeds were definitely planted
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CrackerJackAg
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In reply to Cheetah01 • 7:18p, 8/3/26
AG
Cheetah01 said:
Why do you think John 14:6 disproves dispensationalism? I'm not sure how they relate.


Do you mind stating what you believe dispensations to be?

I want to hear your statement to see if you actually fully believe in it.

I find most people I speak to in person don't believe it when I ask them in person.
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Cheetah01
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In reply to CrackerJackAg • 8:13p, 8/3/26
AG
I don't know that I would fully compartmentalize seven dispensations, but I do believe in the age of the promise to Abraham, the age of the Mosaic law, the age of grace/church age following the death and resurrection of Jesus, and a literal millennial kingdom.

With regard to Israel and the Church, I believe that Israel has rejected (as a nation) the Messiah. However, there will be a day when a Jewish remnant will cry out Baruch Haba B'Shem Adonai and Jesus will return.

I don't believe any non-Messianic Jew has the imputed righteousness of Jesus Christ. I don't believe any dispensationalism does, but just making sure that's clear. However, I do think there will be a day, following a time of Jacob's trouble, where they (a remnant) will accept Jesus as Messiah. I believe this is Paul's meaning in Romans 11:25-32 (but really this is contemplated in Romans 10:19 and much of Romans 11).

Not sure I answered your question but that's a flyover of some of what I believe are relevant points.
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CrackerJackAg
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In reply to Cheetah01 • 10:28p, 8/3/26
AG
Cheetah01 said:
I don't know that I would fully compartmentalize seven dispensations, but I do believe in the age of the promise to Abraham, the age of the Mosaic law, the age of grace/church age following the death and resurrection of Jesus, and a literal millennial kingdom.

With regard to Israel and the Church, I believe that Israel has rejected (as a nation) the Messiah. However, there will be a day when a Jewish remnant will cry out Baruch Haba B'Shem Adonai and Jesus will return.

I don't believe any non-Messianic Jew has the imputed righteousness of Jesus Christ. I don't believe any dispensationalism does, but just making sure that's clear. However, I do think there will be a day, following a time of Jacob's trouble, where they (a remnant) will accept Jesus as Messiah. I believe this is Paul's meaning in Romans 11:25-32 (but really this is contemplated in Romans 10:19 and much of Romans 11).

Not sure I answered your question but that's a flyover of some of what I believe are relevant points.


I was just curious it sounds like there are certain aspects of dispensationalism that you rejected some things that you accept.

That's always what makes these conversations difficult especially on a web forum is that somebody who is a Christian evangelical or Christian Dispensationalist can mean so many things.

I appreciate your answer and I may come back to this at some point, but it's late and I don't have the energy to give it the attention that it and you deserve tonight.
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Silent For Too Long
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In reply to CrackerJackAg • 2:28a, 8/5/26
Honest question, is your position that all prophecy recorded in the Bible has long been fulfilled, or that there's more to come and it just has nothing to do with Isreal?

What specific issues do you have with disprnsationalism?
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Thaddeus73
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8:53a, 8/5/26
AG
All promises regarding land to Israel have been fulfilled. In these times of the NT, the promised land is heaven, not a strip of land in the Middle East...
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CrackerJackAg
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In reply to Silent For Too Long • 9:24a, 8/8/26
AG
Silent For Too Long said:
Honest question, is your position that all prophecy recorded in the Bible has long been fulfilled, or that there's more to come and it just has nothing to do with Isreal?

What specific issues do you have with disprnsationalism?


Well we recite The Nicene Creed weekly and that covers our belief that in the Second Coming of Christ, Bodily Resurrection and The Judgment.

So no we don't believe all prophecies have been fulfilled.

We view the Apostolic Church rather than the modern geopolitical state of Israel as the fulfillment or continuation of God's covenant people while still expecting a future Second Coming and Final Judgment.

You guys teach a distinctly odd ongoing prophetic role for the literal nation of Israel separate from the Church, including a future Rapture, Tribulation and earthly kingdom centered in Jerusalem.

I say odd as 90-95% of worldwide Christian's reject your beliefs. 25% of Americans believe what you do and about half of Evangelicals. So basically just sects of Evangelicals.

Historically 99.9999% of Christian's consider Dispensationalist as deeply flawed and heretical.

I say that only to point out the echo chamber you may be living in and understand you are preaching an extremely odd and rarely held belief.

Christ's Church (not the invisible church) fulfills and continues Gods Covenant and not modern day Israel.
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CrackerJackAg
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In reply to Silent For Too Long • 9:30a, 8/8/26
AG
Silent For Too Long said:

What specific issues do you have with disprnsationalism?


John 14:6

Jesus said to him, I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me.



I feel like that wraps it up. There is no proof of a loophole. God obviously can do as He chooses but I wouldn't hang my hopes outside of Christ.

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CrackerJackAg
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In reply to Thaddeus73 • 9:34a, 8/8/26
AG
Thaddeus73 said:
All promises regarding land to Israel have been fulfilled. In these times of the NT, the promised land is heaven, not a strip of land in the Middle East...


God's ultimate plan is the redemption and renewal of physical creation, not its abandonment for a purely spiritual realm or "Heaven in the Clouds ". The literal physical return of Christ, the resurrection, and the physical restoration of all creation at the end of age.

RCC and Orthodox agree here.

Maybe I misunderstood you but we aren't leaving here. Heaven will include that strip of land in the ME.

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Cheetah01
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In reply to CrackerJackAg • 11:43a, 8/8/26
AG
I totally agree with this, brother. I'm not clear on what loophole exists in dispensationalism. I believe only those Jews who accept Jesus Christ as their propitiation for sin will be saved. Which, according to my understanding is only a third of those who remain on earth until His return. Maranatha!
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dermdoc
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In reply to CrackerJackAg • 11:44a, 8/8/26
AG
CrackerJackAg said:
Thaddeus73 said:
All promises regarding land to Israel have been fulfilled. In these times of the NT, the promised land is heaven, not a strip of land in the Middle East...


God's ultimate plan is the redemption and renewal of physical creation, not its abandonment for a purely spiritual realm or "Heaven in the Clouds ". The literal physical return of Christ, the resurrection, and the physical restoration of all creation at the end of age.

RCC and Orthodox agree here.

Maybe I misunderstood you but we aren't leaving here. Heaven will include that strip of land in the ME.


Preach bother!
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Cheetah01
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In reply to Thaddeus73 • 11:50a, 8/8/26
AG
I disagree. My understanding of scripture is that Ezekiel 37 and Isaiah 66 are fulfilled by modern Israel.

Further, I see no historical fulfillment of Ezekiel 38-39, nor of Daniel 9:20-27 which both deal with the nation of Israel.

To me, it is a huge faith builder that these prophecies written 2500-2700 years ago speak to the times in which we live!
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CrackerJackAg
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In reply to Cheetah01 • 12:01p, 8/8/26
AG
Cheetah01 said:
I totally agree with this, brother. I'm not clear on what loophole exists in dispensationalism. I believe only those Jews who accept Jesus Christ as their propitiation for sin will be saved. Which, according to my understanding is only a third of those who remain on earth until His return. Maranatha!


Then you don't understand Dispensationalism. I find this to be very common.

It typically goes from:

"I just think God Jess a special plan for the Jews"

to

"Yeah I don't believe 90% of that"

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Cheetah01
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In reply to CrackerJackAg • 12:16p, 8/8/26
AG
I won't claim to be an expert but I've studied it quite a bit.
Believing God has a plan for Israel has nothing to do with the method of salvation. Which, by the way, I believe is faith alone in Christ alone; as you rightly pointed out with John 14:6.

I believe God has a plan for you as well. Romans 8 says He does. It doesn't change your method of salvation.
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